Thin Line Between Critique and Courtrooms: A Dialogue on the Recent Audiophile Drama

@dz13 I once was cheated out of 20K in a real estate transaction and I soon found out that if I don't have another 20K to lose/give to lawyers, it's all good money after bad. Something wrong with that picture/system. Just like small claims court, you can win and then fold paper planes from the judge's order.

I think as long as the reviewer makes it clear the evaluation is strictly his professional opinion and anyone thinking about getting that product should do a side by side comparison at a brick and mortar store before dropping dollars. Its ok, and needed. I personally heard a $50k pair of speakers that did not hold a chance against my DYI, or Mid level Paradyne, Klipsch horns, JBL Floor standers. When manufacturers sue reviewers for having an honest opinion, then 1st amendment needs to be upheld. If a manufacturer is not making a competitive product for the cost, then someone needs to sound off without fear of a law suit.

@audiokinesis A defamation case can be brought anywhere the alleged defamatory remarks were published. I’d guess that a YouTube video is pretty much everywhere so the case could probably be brought in any state which gives the plaintiff the opportunity to forum shop a choose a state without an anti-SLAPP law. Then the question is whether the case can be removed to federal court and whether the federal court applies the state’s law which probably is the case.

As to how long it would take to get a case dismissed depends on the state, the court and the judge. Generally, there are 2 ways to get rid of a case pre-trial: a motion to dismiss and a motion for summary judgment. The motion to dismiss only works if there is a clear defect of the case in the pleadings meaning that the plaintiff has not alleged enough to constitute an actionable case. A motion for summary judgment works if the undisputed facts (ascertained via discovery) do constitute an actionable case (a reasonable jury wouldn’t find for the plaintiff). If the facts aren’t in dispute and the law, based upon the undisputed facts means there is no case, you win the summary judgment motion. The motion to dismiss can be attempted immediately and could get rid of some or all of the claims. The motion for summary judgment occurs months into the case.

@grislybutter Sorry for your experience but that is the way things unfortunately are. My later practice focused on litigation in the probate court (meaning guardianships, conservatorships, probate but I also did undue influence cases and prosecuted exploiters of the elderly) but I worked in tort area before. I found that lawyers were too expensive and the process always too slow. Judges seem to continue to want to be "hands off" cases until or unless it came to trial. A good 90% of cases resolved prior to trial and that process could be sped up if the Judge took a hands on approach and culled things down. But the courts are the playthings of the rich who can use the process to delay, harass and intimidate people. I went out on my own for my last 21 years of practice in order to hold down my costs and my fees but I was almost alone with that philosophy with other lawyers and judges.

How surprizing! 😁

But the courts are the playthings of the rich who can use the process to delay, harass and intimidate people.

@dz13 I didn't know about the judges' hands on or hands off point, thanks for your insight! I guess in dictatorships the rich buy the judge and the system, in democracies they buy  the lawyers who figure out how to play the system (like the guy going to court in NYC tomorrow)

1.  Absence of malice.

2.  Protected speech under the 1A.

Next.....

@hartf36 Not to be picky but neither of those points apply.

Malice or its absence is only involved in a defamation case if there is a public official or a public figure suing a news media outlet. I doubt that Erik from Tekton fits either category and Erin certainly isn't a news media outlet. This standard came from a US Supreme Court case NY Times v. Sullivan in 1964.

https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/actual-malice/

The 1st Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

While there is some interplay with the 1st Amendment (See NY Times v. Sullivan) involving the right of the press and rights to comment on public officials and public figures, defamation is a common law tort which is law created by the courts to redress injuries between individuals. The extended 1st Amendment rights involved in the Sullivan case do not pertain to the private individual. 

https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/libel-and-slander/

Guys, let's not go down that road...

It's inevitable.

No minds ever get changed and its a sure way to get the thread deleted.

Just remember, the FTC has sued companies for hiding bad reviews.

Consumer Review Fairness Act: What Businesses Need to Know | Federal Trade Commission (ftc.gov)

For clarification, I was making no political statements nor supporting any. Nor was I insinuating that the criminal justice system could be or is being used politically. I was just pointing out the obvious: people with wealth can do more as litigants as they can afford the expenses than people who can't afford lawyers. I was also pointing out my disappointment in my local court system as to the way cases were handled. 

I must say, as someone who spent decades in the journalism business, for both big and small news organizations, this is pretty much 180-degree opposite to fundamental journalist ethics.

A journalist’s responsibility is first and foremost to provide true information to the readers, and in the case of the sort of consumer journalism that product reviewing is, where you’re helping readers make informed decisions, providing information about less than good product is crucial.

Of course, journalists have a responsibility to be fair with and about the subjects of their reviews. But their responsibility is not to protect the reputation of the manufacturer who delivers a subpar product by killing the negative review and returning the product to the manufacturer. That not only makes the journalist an agent of the manufacturer essentially but also erodes the publication’s credibility with readers, who are the customers you have responsibility to. It’s absolutely corrosive to journalism ethics and effectiveness.

Any of the reasons of competency offered as reasons to assume a bad review is being offered unethically or with ulterior motivation could equally apply to good reviews. There’s no reason to assume that one is any more competently or ethically delivered than the other.

Which is not to suggest that the audio press has ever been a bastion of journalistic standards -- there’s plenty that erodes reader confidence in the audio press: long term equipment loans, extremely cozy manufacturer and retailer relationships with journalists and editors -- but among those things, this unwillingness to publish bad reviews and the hermetic belief of where ones responsibility lies that suggests that the proper thing to do when encountering a bad product is not to inform the public but keep it from the public and inform the manufacturer instead, is a dozy.

The best answer to mediocre journalism, technical incompetence and the inevitable tensions between the editorial and business sides of the house (especially in enthusiast and trade publishing where your sources and your advertisers are often from the same community), isn’t just to throw one’s hand up and say, fine, let’s just publish puff pieces.

@chervokas You make an excellent point which does not address my prior comments. I don't have a problem if the review is honest. Quite often negative reviews aren't. I know of an honest review Art Dudley wrote about a multi-driver speaker using full range drivers, which he published in the Listener. Its one of the few rare exceptions I know of (to my knowledge I've not read any of yours); I can point to many more that were not honest.

If the bar for ethics is measured using the performance of journalists in todays mainstream media, then that indeed is pretty low. I certainly hope we would hold reviewers to a higher standard than that.

@ozzy62 seriously? Have you spent the last 8 years in a cave?

If I had done 1/10th in my entire life of what he does every week, I’d be locked up for good. He evades the law any which way he pleases.

Yeah, I guess it's off topic

@magister You seem to confuse hate with disdain and loathing of juvenile and petty behaviors… Pick better heroes,,, 
 

My $.02 is none of this Sound and Fury will cost Tekton a single customer… oddly many people ( one banned here ) SANG incredible, incessant praise before HEARING them….. So things will go on. I appreciate both the detractors and defenders ( if you actually own them )…..

I suspect, the founder will take a clue from his red hat hero and fundraise off of “ litigation “….. Didn’t he pay for a speaker review too… ? Sue me dude - you threatened once…bring it. Discovery is always fun….

@dz13 You seem to have your head on right ;-) thanks for being here.

@tomic601  -- Amen!  I'd LOVE to see that business destroyer Eric actually attempt to sue Amir or Erin over this laughable debacle.  I would contribute to their defense fund in a heartbeat.  Eric seems to forget that people took screenshots of the BS he spouted on the review threads and downloaded the YouTube videos he posted and then removed when 99% of the comments called him out for being an a-hole. 

"I didn't mean I was going to sue when I threatened litigation.  To me, litigation is my lawyer sitting down with your lawyer to see how we move forward with the review I didn't like..."

Yeah, he ACTUALLY said that with a straight face 🤣.  Eric's actions since February borders on corporate malfeasance.  If he had a Board of Directors of stockholders, he would have been removed from the company by now.  In my 60+ years on this planet, I've never seen a small business owner act like he has and totally drive a businesses reputation into the ground.  It will be interesting to see if Tekton Audio still exists a year from now.  I have no sympathy for Eric Alexander if it doesn't, and if anybody gets sued, I hope it's Eric being sued by his employees for their lost jobs!

Dude… the venue will be Utah….Best we can hope for is 50/50 shot at justice… However dinner at the Red Iguana is on me… best Mole on the planet save my mother in laws

Florida with what’s her name is worse odds…

Eric at Tekton is one of those dr jekyll mr hyde types. I would boycott Tekton altogether after listening to his absurd behavior toward Erin. Amir, I could care less about because he doesn’t even listen to a lot of the gear he measures in the first place, misleads end-users and trashes gear un-constructively. I’m amazed Amir hasn’t been sued into oblivion already. Erin did a standup job and Eric owes him a huge public apology.

Amir does have an obvious slant, but measurements are important in making buying decisions. Hence, why all the flowery wordsmiths of the main audiophile press, I ignore. I make the decisions with MY EARS, not theirs.

I have watched all the videos, Eric did it right - he was upfront and open about it. Tekton left a bad taste in his mouth, because it was so passive/aggressive.

I have heard Tekton's many times, as I know people who have many pairs of them. None of them have ever impressed me with their sound, but that is me.

Sorry i dont see which post of me you refer too ... 😁

You must had cited the post ...

My last post is a one line approval of a common place fact ...😊

Anonymously here disdain often appear as hate especially if repeated behaviour , and i dont know what you refer to about juvenile loathing and petty behaviours...

i rarely speak in enigmas here ... But directly.... It is more simple this way ...

@magister You seem to confuse hate with disdain and loathing of juvenile and petty behaviors… Pick better heroes,,,

I agree measurements are important. What I’m saying is Amir misguides end-users by teaching them that unless gear measures well, that means it’s no good and he’s just absolutely dead wrong. The guy is a very strange individual and takes measurements too extreme and I’m astonished that people even trust his judgement. He doesn’t match gear properly and relies only on measurements and trashes gear that doesn’t measure to his likes. That’s absurd. If he doesn’t even take the time to listen to the gear he measures, then he’s just too one sided. He’s a really weird individual. If he was sued, I wouldn’t feel bad for him. Erin on the other hand a really nice guy. He makes measurements, BUT he also listens to the gear he tests to determine if the measurements are audible. That’s a great approach. I have nothing against measurements but there has to be a balance. Amir is way off the deep end.

Amir ideology is called techno-cultism...

It is pervasive in A.I. sleepwalking engineers crowds with no deep understanding of what is at stake in society right now...

This cult is born from hubris as soon as after the materialism dominate Anglo saxon Empire and the world after the victorious nominalism.It was a necessary stage for the advent of science but not the only one.

Techno cultism act of birth is just after Goethe Faust which denounce its blindness and denounced the replacement of the " free philosopher of nature" by the deal make in hell with the specialised unfree scientists working for the power in place and his corporations . In 1836 Wavell and Babbage, the father of A.I. in a reunion asked for the replacement of the title "philosopher of nature" by the shorter name "scientist" . Then the free philosopher was replaced by unfree specialised and controlled servant of corporate satanic powers. The same powers William Blake denounced in his own ways .

Techno cultism is a religious faith toward the only incoming God : A.I.

For them only measures are real. Human live in illusions. 😊

The modern era produce uneducated specialised slave workers called "scientists"; ask a doctor. many did subordinate Hippocrates oath to big pharma controls, if not tey are  ejected as incompetent. I will stop here ...😊

History teach well .

@atmasphere  I have issues with you saying negative reviews are because someone has an axe to grind. Maybe, but how does one define that?

I can say too many positive reviews, such as the MQA fiasco in the main audio magazines tell me it is the EXACT OPPOSITE problem. Too many positive reviews and not enough HONEST REVIEWS.

@mahgister stop talking 

@bivhopkins I concur with your suggestion

@mahgister Biv... has been on Audiogon almost as long as you, just the man of fewer words, this does not mean he is forbidden to suggest.

@mahgister Biv... has been on Audiogon almost as long as you, just the man of fewer words, this does not mean he is forbidden to suggest.

Do you understand the difference between an imperative and a polite invitation or suggestion?

Especially after a meaningful post of mine explaining why i dont share Amir ideology even if i like his work ?

«Imperative verbs work by issuing a command to the person being addressed. »

Now is this man of "few words" know the difference between an order given to a poster he never discussed with and a polite and friendly suggestion ?

The question here is about not the number of words but about their meanings and context and about politeness and civility...We share ideas as humans we do not impose orders as a gang of apes...

My post suggested a relatively short thoughtful reflection , his post is an emotional uncontrolled reaction bordering on insult the way it is given ...😊

Your interpretation then reflect your own emotional reaction not the discussion context at all..

You dont like reading a poster skip him ...

We are not all on the same levels about everything here ... Then respect is recommended even for man of "few words" ...

Sorry i am not a man of "few words" ... 😊😁 i treat everyone as friends here ... I am made this way but i answer to those who attack me politely but with arguments ...

If you want to create a burst of violence in a jail play Mozart music said to me one of my psychologist friend. I hope that we are not in a jail with brutes on the brink to explode if someone put "mozart" thoughtful music here. 😊

i like thinking sorry...

I think it’s fair to say @mahgister is guilty of smiley face emoji abuse.  😜😝🙄

I think it’s fair to say @mahgister is guilty of smiley face emoji abuse. 😜😝🙄

You said truth so well i cannot object and only confess and even add i am guilty of too much words too 😁...It is a pleasure to confess my own  truth with you ... ☺😊

But i am made such... Imperfect ...

I have issues with you saying negative reviews are because someone has an axe to grind. Maybe, but how does one define that?

 

I can say too many positive reviews, such as the MQA fiasco in the main audio magazines tell me it is the EXACT OPPOSITE problem. Too many positive reviews and not enough HONEST REVIEWS.

@botrytis I defined how earlier. The problem is you don't know and the negative review can put someone out of business. Maybe its deserved, but it it isn't, someone experiences a lot of pain on that account...

I totally agree otherwise!

Maybe what we need is a movie about audiophiles like the one done for food in The Menu. 

All the best,
Nonoise

That is one interesting, original show!

I thought it was creepy. Well made but disturbing

@mahgister, be concise. Also, you are in no position to lecture on kindness; you’ve been abrasive with great consistency. 

@atmasphere I worked at place that got negative reviews and got sued also and lost. They are still in business. So I say that is not true. If you think this way, you should not be facing any customers, because your ego can’t deal with a bad reaction.

You are putting onus on the reviewer, not yourself. You blame the reviewer, not what is made. I worked in QC/QA for a long time so I know about commercial products.

Just because a review is negative, does not mean it isn't deserved.

@mahgister, be concise. Also, you are in no position to lecture on kindness; you’ve been abrasive with great consistency.

I am as you are yourself not perfect but i do not confuse order with invitation...

I am abrasive sometimes but there is generally a reason... And if there is no reason sometimes i am abrasive with arguments , not with insults, and only sarcasms or orders and commands, this is my form of kindness speaking to the working mind of my friend ...

And i treat everyone on the same level then able to understand rational of arguments...

And i dont entertain grudges by the way ...😊This is my kindness...

I will never be concise because many things cannot be explained or described in few sentences as music mysteries or acoustics concepts etc or philosophical ideas ...( i am retired and miss my younger friends )

And i am not english born speakers i lack the art of ellipse and innuendos ...

Think about the way your "friend above was "kind" toward me ...😁

I discuss with you here just now , did i use order, insults, innuendos ?. No ...Only rational sentences...

My best to you ... 😊

@mahgister, my apologies. Sometimes sarcasm doesn’t read well, my mistake. Also, I did not know English is not your first language. i will be more mindful.
Regards

Biv

@mahgister, my apologies. Sometimes sarcasm doesn’t read well, my mistake. Also, I did not know English is not your first language. i will be more mindful.
Regards

Biv

I must apologize too because i know i spoke too much...😁

But this small misfortune here is a good thing for me because it was an occasion to exhange with a gentleman...😊

My best to you

@mahgister ,

Nous avons ici un groupe très diversifié, mon ami!

Je pense que la plupart d'entre eux sont des gens bien.

Every person difference is a richness for all of us..

The more different the better it could be if we try to understand... 😊

@mahgister ,

Nous avons ici un groupe très diversifié, mon ami!

Je pense que la plupart d'entre eux sont des gens bien.

But i am made such... Imperfect ...

@mahgister I like most imperfect people.  It’s the perfect ones I can’t stand. 😊

You win the lotterie with me i am very much imperfect...

😊

I myself love perfectible people and you seems one ... 😊

@mahgister I like most imperfect people. It’s the perfect ones I can’t stand. 😊

What might put somebody out of business are responses like Tekton's, not reviews. Anybody here want to spend their money with Eric so he can hire more lawyers to go after people who don't say what he wants them to about his products? 

America in the 2020s, where corporations, the rich and powerful make all the rules and damn the truth   

Maybe what we need is a movie about audiophiles like the one done for food in The Menu. 

@nonoise, spot on!