Thiel Owners

Ps...I haven’t tried FuzzMeasure but will definitely explore...thx.

jm - FuzzMeasure is similar to Room Equalizer Wizzard. It seems that REW has many more adherents in hi fi land. I got FM because JA used it extensively in his Stereophile graphs, and it works well for my semi-pro room optimization work in recording sites, studios and theaters.
FWIW: I've been working on my CS2.2s, because I have them, as my main workhorse to develop upgrade paths for some classic Thiel models. Everything learned will apply to the CS2. So if you love yours, you might keep them and see what we can eventually make of them.

Tom,

Sounds great, I have no intention of letting my CS2’s go,
These are actually a second pair since my original pair bought new in the late 80’s lost sound to the tweeter/mid. I believe there is a gent Rob in Lexington, that you likely know, repairing these but it was easier to just get a nice used pair. After Covid mess maybe I will road trip to Lexington and see if I can get my originals repaired. Still I may look for some later 2 series just because I really love the sound, they work brilliantly in my space, and I know the design execution just got better and better. Amazing after 30 +/- years they still rival or best many of today’s high $ designs...cudos to Jim....and I haven’t done anything with room equalization so who knows how much better this might get....look forward to hearing about your work...

Last thing about Convolution filters and then I will stop.

I am listening to some rock music now, Robert Plant and Rainbow. I was starting to feel sleepy when I was listening. This used to happen prior to the Convolution implementation (too much sound pressure). The imaging was also off and the sound seemed to be coming from the speakers instead of the speakers disappearing. I thought these are old recording and maybe that is how they were recorded.

I must have had a brain freeze since I was under the impression that I had turned ON the Convolution. It is very easy to see on ROON current track being played. However, it turned out that I have not enabled the Convolution because I had listened to headphones the prior night. I think I was fascinated by the new MQA DAC setting in my sound path and did not notice the Convolution was missing.

I turned ON the Convolution and the pressure that was making me sleepy disappeared, the speakers also disappeared, and the imaging became great. This is some great technology. OK, no more on the Convolution stuff.

tomthiel

Thank You for the additional electronics history regarding Thiel Audio.

Happy Listening!

jmbumgarner01

Good to see you again. Remarkable that you still enjoy the CS2 loudspeaker.  

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

I just watched the latest HiFi Chats #27 via YouTube.
The guest is B%W. There is pretty good conversation on Loudspeaker building and Cross-over design. I thought its content may be of interest.
We have several DIY members on the Panel.

Happy Listening!

B&W : Corrected.

JA - thanks for the B&W lead. I haven't heard a B&W since 1995. They certainly have advanced the state of the art.

In Thiel history, B&W was a significant player. Being an imported product, they were at a pricing disadvantage, and having such luxurious designs and presentation, they appealed to upmarket customers. Thiel's niche was to surprise the more frugal customer with how much sonic goodness could be gotten from Thiel at a fraction of the price.

But B&W certainly deserves kudos for what it produces.

Anyone using Coda amps with Thiel speakers ?I'm looking at the new Coda 16.0 and 41.0 stereo for CS 3.7s.Would the 16.0 be the best match for 3.7s with up to 100w in class A  and very high current.
Class A vs monster class AB with the 41.0 that is the question.

Happy Friday! All

@thieliste, I’ll hazard a guess that the 16’s 100 Watts Class A output halves with each halving of impedance (assuming it can hold up below 4 Ohms) below 8 Ohms. And that happens as the CS 3.7’s sensitivity is dropping as proportionately with impedance. Interesting that the 40 though not quite a double down monster still has a respectable 2 Ohms rating, but the 16 does not.

CODA 16.0 Stereo Amplifier - Destination HiFi
Coda 40.0 Stereo Amplifier - Destination HiFi

I asked a dealer about the #16 last week. He sent an email to CODA to ask about the specs on the #16 at 2 Ohm.

Yesterday, I was reading something online (I forget exactly what) about the CODA #16 and that post or review said the 100 watt Class A is for both 8 Ohm and 4 Ohm.

I received an email from Doug Dale of CODA (info@coda.cc) on the #8 and he said that that unit halves the Class A output as impendence is halved.

Now that I am set and amplification on the CS3.7 (Benchmark AHB2) I am looking around for an amp for the KEF Blade 2 that I will get in 2021+. The CODA is a consideration. It could also be swapped with the CS3.7.

Now back to my CS3.7 in my office. What a great speaker. I think my new COAX drivers are breaking in now. Just an incredible sound, this is some of the best sound I have ever heard from any speaker. I have heard quite a few the last 10 years. Luckily, I do not have much work to do for my job because right now the music is too distracting for me to concentrate on any work.

If you can set the 3.7s up well to show their best, they are special.Still probably the best overall speakers I’ve ever owned (and heard).

tomthiel

My pleasure. I owned the pre-diamond tweeter B&W 805. A very good monitor. The advent of the Diamond tweeter really advanced this loudspeaker brand. All models can be matched with solid state or tubed gear.

Happy Listening!

^Many if not most B&W's have impedance plots and phase angles that don't typically take kindly to tube amplification. That B&W bought Classe' might be due to more than a coincidence.

I'd love to audition the Coda 16.0 with it's 07x preamp but very difficult to find a dealer anywhere near me.This combo could be a good alternative to the Diablo 300 for me.Problem is that the Coda combo is not cheap and the Diablo 300 can be had used for 7.5k that's very difficult to beat.

I have a CODA dealer 100km from me (so very close). They also said they allow home demos of their gear. I may have a listen once COVID is taken down. The thing that intrigues me on the #16 over the #8 is not the Class A, it is the SNR of 130 vs 118.

The Luxman m900u (12 watt Class A), which I thought was amazing with TAD gear, has similar specs to the #8 (18 watt Class A). The #8 is supposed to sound like the m900u but at 1/3 the cost.

Why not get the Diablo, if you decide that you do not like it you can easily sell it since it is so highly regarded.

@yyzsantabarbara  Yes the Diablo 300 is very easy to resale and i'm very familiar with the Gryphon house sound.But since i'm not in a hurry i can still investigate on the Coda pre-power.Please report back when you will have auditioned the 16.0.I would have to travel to southern Italy to audition Coda amps, that's too long of a drive for me so i will have to fly there when possible.

New here. Perhaps the least interesting question ever... I just acquired CS 3.7s after having them inspected by Rob at Coherent Source Service. They arrived truck freight, and frankly not being as young and strong as I once was, I struggled to get them up the front steps and into the house. The boxes are large and heavy. So, what is the best method for unboxing a set of Thiel CS 3.7s? I suppose that one would open the bottom panels, set the box with the speaker upright, and lift the box up and off, but I have not done this since I got 3.6es in 1994 or so. I think there is a box within a box and some other packing in there. Forgot how I did it then... Thanks for helping with something so mundane.   

@yabe1951 That is the correct way to unbox them. I helped pack my 3.7s from the previous owner and also unpack them at home.

Even though the speakers are not really that heavy for speakers I recommend you get some help to carry them some distance. I had to take them up stairs and then back down and up again. A real pain, It is easy to press on the COAX drivers if yo are not careful. When I removed the COAX drivers (they were messed up) it became so much easier to carry them up and down the stairs. When you carry these speakers by yourself, your hand naturally gravitates to the area where the COAX reside.

Thiel CS6 w/SS1;  I dusted them off for the first time in many years.  They sound amazing and they are not properly located yet.  I connected them to see if everything functions, so I could sell them after the 1st of the year.  I don't follow sales and have no clue what they are worth.  I've got a bit over ten grand in them.  I'm hoping for 35 hundred based on age and condition.  Any help would be appreciated.  Note: They will be sold on Audiogon or not at all.

Vega where are you located

Las Vegas, NV

yabe1951

your description is the best method to unpacking those CS 3.7 is on-target. Nice score!

Happy Listening!

vegasears

I hope your CS6 speakers find the next good home.
Are you planning on purchasing a newer Thiel loudspeaker?

Happy Listening!

Guys have you ever seen this guy's youtube channel :

https://www.youtube.com/user/adadasd42/featured

He has the biggest amount of Thiel speaker systems i've ever seen in my whole life very impressive.It would be nice if he could come share his experience on this thread.

@jafant No, I don't want or need any more speakers, I need to clean out my stereo room, too many big speakers.  I also have a pair of Acoustat Spectra 33 electrostatic speakers.  Big speakers are a pain to sell and take up a lot of storage space.

vegasears

Thank You for the follow up. What gear including cabling did you build around the CS6 ?

Happy Listening!

thieliste

A Very cool selection(s) of Thiel loudspeakers and the various gear driving those systems!
I must say that if I owned a large enough home, I would have a second system featuring a different pair of Thiel speakers for comparison.

Happy Listening!

Question: Thiel SI-1 Smartsub Integrator
Does anyone repair these? I talked with Rob about this. He doesn't and said there were problems with the unit and it had eventually been withdrawn. Does this then leave the passive crossover as the only recourse for Thiel smartsubs?  Thanks for any/all replies.

@jafant  I would also be very tempted to have a second pair of older Thiels like the CS6s or CS7.2s but if going that route you really need to get the right amp in the first place to drive these bad boys otherwise it's not worth getting a second pair of Thiels.The 7.2s would worth getting but very difficult to find a pair, there is a pair of CS6 on audiogon.

Jafant,  I use 12awg solid core Irrigation wire.

vegasearsVery nice. Which electronics?

Happy Listening!

tmsrdg,

I've been hunting a SI-1 Integrator for some time. Learning now that they have reliability problems may cause me to reconsider that. I have both the passive PX crossovers but find the "normal" XLR input to be much too bass shy. My solution has been to use a XLR to RCA conversion cable to the LFE input so I can adjust the level. Not sure if this approach is equivalent to the "normal" input in phase or otherwise. Anyone else with similar experience?

snbeall
Good to see you again. Stay tuned in until Tom or on of the other SmartSub experts chimes in to address your query.  Which Thiel speakers and gear in is your current system?
Happy Listening!

Snbeall - I’m not very expert, but I have some experience with the SmartSub which I’m happy to share. I was involved with the early development efforts with Berger, the lead engineer at Vifa. We co-developed the Class D amp at its core in the early 90s with lots of trouble and headaches. We persisted to produce our first powered subwoofer in 1997. As time went on, Jim added his patented room boundary compensation circuitry and voice coil thermistor compensation to counteract thermal compression. I was not in the equation after 1996, but I tried to register my opinion to Jim to allow user control of volume. But, as always, Jim’s MO was to make it "right" period, which in his book is flat anechoic with no user interference allowed. I’m not conversant regarding the SS technicalities, but it is theoretically possible to increase gain in the SS amp, (which I would love to do.) In the absence of schematics, I have tried, but found no one to reverse engineer the unit for either repair or such a volume adjustment mod. But, developments with the Thiel Audio IP rights may change that landscape. Stay tuned.
Regarding your LFE solution. It gets you volume adjustment, but bypasses all of the room boundary compensation circuitry. I haven’t tried it, but am told that LFE is far less musical and more room interaction interdependent. My own room suffers from needing more bass than the SS delivers, which is a common complaint. I recommend trying your hand at tricking it to thinking it is farther out in the room than it is, which will increase its output relative to its real location closer to the reinforcing boundaries. In my particular case, the SS is at a side wall about 5’ from the front wall, but I set the controls at 1’ from the side wall and 3’ from the front (some iterations are in metric equivalents.) When my installation got way better is when I set the SS2 through the wall with the baffle flush, while leaving the controls set as before. I use FuzzMeasure in my work, and FM shows this installation to be flat in this room to about 15Hz. It sounds very good. Maximum reinforcement would be from the floor/corner position, which in many rooms would stimulate maximum eigenmodes, but is not possible for my particular room (see previous descriptions) even though it is quite free from those modal problems. The point is that you can play with actual vs dialed position to get more bass from the SS.

Feel free with any questions, and let us know how your experimentation progresses.
Tom

You could be lucky and arrive at a great sounding system by trial and error. But this is a situation where experience with measuring pays off. Learning to make valid measurements pays dividend in the long run.

So, Tom, do you then agree with Rob about the SI-1 Integrator , that it's a waste of time and not reparable? I've located one that the owner claims just stopped powering on one day and hasn't worked since.

Some testing results with the AHB2 (in mono) and CS3.7 from last night.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-is-floyd-toole-saying-about-extra-amplifier-power-and-he...

Tmsrdg - my knowledge of the SI-1 Integrator is all hearsay from the same sources and reviews as you have. I might add a little more: that Jim and later operatives after his death tried unsuccessfully to develop a troubleshoot-repair operation. Jim was a master intuitive repairman - he could troubleshoot most any circuit in a few minutes and fix it. I don't know what level of effort was put into solving the repair need for the various electronic compontnts. Short answer is that I know very little about the SI situation in particular, but that in general I am working toward a comprehensive repair solution.

One final SmartSub question: if I were to use one of the Thiel SmartSubs with my 3.7s, would I need, foregoing the SI-1 Integrator, the passive crossover "tuned" to the 3.7? Does such an item exist?

All

in my travels and auditions over the years, I can attest, REL is a very nice solution for those looking to add a subwoofer (or 2) in their system.
The older models were not sourced to china. 

Happy Listening!

Todd - the PXO creates an actual designed crossover with the 3.7 etc for a seamless transition. I find it inaudible. Rob may have it. Or if you find any PXO, he can reconfigure for the 3.7 etc

tomthiel

Thank You for weighing in on the SmartSub / SI-1 integrator.
Do you have any of these Thiel products in your Hot Rod garage?

Happy Listening!

I still use a pair of Rel Storm IIIs with my Thiel 3.7s.  The subs are probably about 18 years old (have a Rel Strata III in a spare system as well that is around the same vintage).  So I'm sure eventually at some point I may have to look for another solution and I certainly got my moneys worth from them.

cascadesphil

Thank You for chiming in on REL subwoofers. The Storm and Strata are true subwoofer classics. I have only heard the Britania Series and they were outstanding!
I suspect that the newer models are excellent even though most are sourced to china.

Happy Listening!

Second Note;
the only other subwoofer I can attest is by Sunfire. 
Not sure if these products are sourced to china?

Happy Listening!

Tom,Re your comment on the PXO

I find it inaudible

Do you mean that it does not contribute any audible difference to the setup (therefore, why bother getting one) or that it it works so well that it doesn’t contribute a character of its own?Todd

Todd - sorry, I meant B. I find the SS solution to be a seamless integration between sub-bass and upper frequencies. There is also a little of A in there: It just sounds like bass, not like a subwoofer and therefore doesn't draw attention to itself.