Thank you jafant! It is very much appreciated. I'm a bit all over the map in terms of musical tastes. Louis Armstrong was famously quoted "There is two kinds of music, the good, and the bad. I play the good kind." I would like to think I listen to the good :) but mostly indie rock/country, experimental, international and jazz.
I also was stubborn listener of two channel music until a few years ago when I realized that I was spending more time with my family watching shows/movies than listening on my own. The 3.6s are now currently part of a home theatre setup with a SCS4 center channel. I just recently upgraded my amp to an Arcam pa240 for the 3.6s.
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joe_dittmann
Welcome! Good to see you here today. Stay tuned until one of our 3.6 Panel experts chimes in to address your query. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and System.
Happy Listening!
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Hi All
I am hoping to leverage the collective wisdom of this forum since I do not have the persevere to read through this whole thread. :) Although, I hope to in time.
I am the proud and only owner of a pair of 3.6s. The only modification I have made is replacing the ferrofluid a few years ago.
- Are there any stands or feet that folks recommend? They currently sit on a porcelain tile floor. I no longer have the original spikes and the bases are not in the best of shape so I will likely replace them.
- Given that I have had them for 30+ years, are there any other upgrades that I should consider?
Many thanks in advance for your help!
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Happy Friday! All (belated)
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thieliste
Thank You for the update. Good to read that Jadis is a sonic match for our beloved speakers. The Integrated Amp, has really progressed forward in the last 10 years.
Happy Listening!
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Hi guys, i now have my new Jadis DA88S integrated amp in silver finish driving my CS 3.7s with KT88 tubes.
Jadis class A tube power is spectacular with my Thiel speakers, much better than all SS amps i have tried to date.
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I can recommend the SCS4, as well as provide some background. The 'bookshelf' SCS4 was presented as a home theater product and as such contained solutions for that use. Its voicing is for an on-wall environment and therefore is bass-shy when placed on stands in the room. I believe (open to correction) that the T(tower) iteration is not re-voiced for in-room placement. That said, I find the SCS4 bass satisfying as-is, especially in your small room where bass management can be the greatest system challenge.
Early SCS4s were made in Lexington with polypropylene caps and hi-fi components. Later versions were made in China with less-than-best (in my first-hand experience) crossover components. The Thiel-designed driver was always made by FST in China and is first-quality. All the 'T's were made in Lexington to Thiel's high standards. But, as mentioned, the 'cabinet' is merely a stand and does not support lower or louder bass. (Unless the XO was re-tuned for in-the-room placement.
The SCS4 tweeter was the development workhorse for Jim's swansong CS3.7 tweeter. It employs his lifetime of knowledge and experience. It is magnificent. The lower / high-pass tweeter crossover is unique to the SCS model in that its entry slope is progressive. The first octave below the 2.5kHz cross-point is 6dB/octave, progressing to 12dB/octave to limit excursion to cope with soundtracks and so forth. Also, the traditional aluminum dome is mated with an aluminum voice coil former for heat dissipation, along with ferro-fluid. The problem of turbulent eddy-currents in conductive formers is managed by a longitudinal VC slit. Nice solution.
On a more general note, I am using the SCS4 as my development workhorse for future upgrades to apply to all extant Thiel products. Renaissance advancements include internal cabling, crossover layouts and components, and fluid-dynamic wave-launch enhancement. The SCS4 will be the first Thiel Renaissance product and the rollout will be retrofitting extant speakers. So, owning this model would put you in a position of early adopter for next generation authentic Thiel products.
The stock SCS4 / or SCS4T is a solid product. It is uniquely 'Thiel' in that it presents a time and phase coherent wavefront, albeit with somewhat more phase drift admitted than the hi-fi models. Its frequency and time domain performance is first-rate, and its aluminum baffled, beefy cabinet with rolled front edge does a good job. The single coaxial driver obviates the need for direct-centered and seated listening. You get coherence wherever your ears are. The 'problem' with the 'T' was its doubled price over the bookshelf version without performance advances. On the used market, that 'problem' nearly vanishes.
Let us know what you do.
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audiofilo123
Good to see you here today. Stay tuned until one of our SCS4T experts chime in to address your query. We have a few fans/owners of SCS4(T) speakers on The Panel.
Happy Listening!
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@audiofilo123, The SCS’s can be just the right Thiel’s for many small rooms.
The versions without the decorative only cabinet extensions of the “T” version are probably the preferred model though.
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I have the chance to buy a pair of mint condition SCS4T and I wonder if someone can share some users experiences.
I have a small dedicated listening room (190 sq feet) and perhaps it can work in such small space.
Thanks.
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jlm86
Watch Craigslist (CL) as well.
Happy Listening!
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jlm86
Welcome! Good to see you here today. There has never been a better time to purchase Thiel loudspeakers. Watch here, eBay and U.S. Audiomart on a regular basis for models- CS 2.3 or 3.6. I look forward in reading more abut your Musical tastes and System.
Happy Listening!
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I always look here for items for sale (right now the closest Thiels to Lexington KY are 1.2s in Cary NC about 7.5 hours of drive time) -
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Thank you, yes I saw those in NY...
Very nice...
Can't do the driving like before, else I'd be going...
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@jlm86
There is a beautiful set of 3.6's in NY state and a set of white 2.4's in Virginia ,
both are listed on Reverb and both are local pickup only ,
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Hello group...
Previous Thiel owner from Lexington KY!
Home to original Thiel offices, Jim and Kathy etc...
Very fond memories walking around production site looking at all the beautiful veneer that they created...
Anyway, now approaching 70, and diving back to nostalgia..
Looking for 3.6 or perhaps 2.3 for music room..
Pretty hard to find I see...but looking...
Plan on driving with Aragon 4004 mkII amp. Would like to find tube amp with remote control...(Yes, I know)
Anyway, happy listening..
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biannuzzi22
Thank You for the follow up- Brian.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the XO update. Good to learn that upgrade packages will be available this year. Your diligence and hard work are paying off. The Panel will be ready.
Happy Listening!
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last_lemming - about CS2.4 XO upgrade. That model has been done several times at various levels with good results. However, my explorations have revealed that Jim’s stock XO parts are quite well optimized per cost. A complete rework could cost as much as the entire original bill of materials. I have been working on some cost-effective substantive upgrades at moderate cost, all having to do with orderly propagation in the electrical and fluid dynamic realms.
Electrically we replace the input terminals with GR Research Electra tube terminals as well as the internal cable with something I have developed. We're presently searching for a manufacturer willing to take on its idiosyncrasies. I predict you’ll love it, and it will be available this year. The 2.4 has its crossover in the cabinet bottom with enough room to house larger, better caps, as well as away from the dirty fields generated by the drivers. We have addressed orderly wave propagation in the crossover layout with the circuits running linearly rather than dense-packed.
Also, I have developed a new cap with multiple sections in the Golden Ratio. It’s extraordinary and should be in production this year. And, you can replace your resistors with Mills MRA-12s, especially in the series-feed positions. I can help you identify or implement various aspects as you might choose via PM.
The fluid dynamic wave-launch solution is coming along nicely. We control the interface between the high-density energy at the driver / transitioning into the limp air mass in the room. The sonic improvements are as thrilling as they are unexpected. We are presently running beta tests on the SCS4.
January 2023, our efforts shifted focus onto the SCS4 due to its friendliness to upgrade work by multiple participants. All new solutions developed on the SCS4 will apply to all Classic Thiel models. The work as been long and slow, but progress is being made.
I can suggest what might be best for now vs wait for later.
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last_lemming
Good to see you here. Stay tuned until one of our DIY experts chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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Hey team. Been a while. I really don’t have the time or tenacity to find the info in this epic thread! But can someone post a link that most directly answers the question about upgrading the CS2.4 crossover and what parts are involved and if a how to exists that would be great!
also it’s been a bit but are there premade replacement crossovers I can just buy?
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I found out that my Thiel SS2 subwoofer’s amp was sending extra voltage to the drivers which caused one of them to blow. I am just going to drill a hole in the back and use an external amplifier. Does anyone have any recommendations on external subwoofer amps? Any suggestions on 500 watt drivers would also be greatly appreciated.
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Thanks everyone for the info about the SmartSub SS2. I am having a guy in Denver replace the drivers with ones that are more easily available. The amp might be going bad so I might get an external amp. I know this won’t make it a true Thiel product but I just want to find an easier way to keep this subwoofer. If anyone else has used different parts for a similar project please let me know.
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Same here i never toe in my 3.7s, this is definitely the best results i got but i'm lucky to have plenty of room from the side walls like about 6 feet.
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I've owned the 3.7s and 2.7s.
Like most speakers, toe-in increases the high frequency content, toe out reduces it and mellows out the sound more.
I toe them out somewhat, not to just forward facing, but enough to have a smooth balance and to increase the apparent soundstage and imaging size.
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thanks Guys. mine are toed in maybe 3-5 degrees. the right speaker has nothing beside it to create additional HF. the left speaker has a wall near it but i have a big sound diffusion panel at the first reflection to help. I use a laser level across the front of the speakers that projects a laser line onto the other speaker. it barely bisects the side of the speaker and when i get the same thing on both speakers, i have got them toed in the same. does that make sense? i would post pics but there is no way to do it as far as i can tell.
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Toe in will typically increase direct high frequency, but decrease reflected high frequency. Reflected high frequency can be more objectionable.
A tiny bit of toe in can offer some compensation for limited available listening distance. For example; with a 10’ center to center speaker width, a <2 degrees toe in can allow an 8’ listening distance to more closely approximate the preferred 10’ listening position.
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ronkent
Good to see you here today. The CS 3.7 speaker does not require toe-in to enjoy its inherent dispersion/radiance HF energy. In other words, Soundstage.
If an Audiophile chooses toe-in, then, HF energy is decreased affecting dispersion/radiance patterns. This is a matter of preference and taste. Hope this opinion clarifies.
Happy Listening!
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@jafant i am confused. in a post above you said that 3.7's do not require toe in but the above post says that toe in decreases HF energy. that does not compute.
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tomthiel
Yes, toe-in for the CS 3.7 speaker will certainly decrease high-frequency energy.
Keep up the excellent sleuth work!
Happy Listening!
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JA - I posit that all Thiel models have benefited from toe-in for a high majority of users, including myself. But, it's a mixed bag of trade-offs and that toe in contributes toward the felt need to reduce high frequency energy. I'm unraveling the puzzle.
I'll note behind the curtain that Jim was smoking before he was a teenager and his high frequency hearing was compromised. Whereas his analytical ear was highly developed in sorting out the sonic integration puzzle in the lower ranges, he was comparatively insensitive to such nuances at the upper end of the sonic spectrum.
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2nd Note;
In my Thiel trials, I did find that models CS 1.6 and 1.7 speakers benefits from slight toe-in. I hope this helps current and future fans and owners on The Panel.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for posting your experiences, thoughts and impressions on the CS 3.7 Loudspeaker. I concur, in that, models CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and 3.7 do not require toe-in positioning. Older Thiel speakers may benefit from toe-in positioning.
Sound advice, as always.
Happy Listening!
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Some thoughts related to CS3.7 ’brightness’.
Brightness, or excessive upper midrange energy is a common complaint about Thiel speakers. Knocking those frequencies down will reduce the perceived problem, but I’d like to add some perspective to that solution.
I know intimately how Jim developed and voiced his speakers. He compared and correlated ear, impulses, sweeps and pink noise using floor-standing, aerially suspended, and ground-plane techniques. He achieved his goal of less than 1/10th dB / octave-averaged power of differences. I believe Thiel speakers are flat. That judgement runs contrary to many user’s experience. Following are some thoughts about that discrepancy.
Jim’s design listening position is off-axis via speakers pointing straight ahead. Lots of irregularities are reduced or eliminated at the resultant 25-30° off axis listening position. Note that most listeners, nearly universally, toe the speakers in perhaps half that amount. They then get more high frequency amplitude and more discrepancy between drivers than a properly (as designed) positioned listener.
So why do most listeners prefer listening closer to on-axis than designed? One reason might be that Thiel speakers have unusually wide dispersion patterns. That is by design - approximating how a real sound source would radiate into the listening environment. Look at the off-axis plots of Thiel speakers and you’ll see only a few dB of high frequency droop with very similar response curves to the on axis response. That wide dispersion provides better in-room power response, better stereo imaging and better phase coherence. But it comes at the cost of more side-wall reflected energy than most speakers. I suggest trying straight-ahead orientation while adding sonic absorbancy at the side wall first reflection point. My experience is that the reflection is causing the perceived problem and that absorbing the reflection presents a better solution than reducing the amplitude of the offending frequencies.
I have only heard 3.7s once, in 2012 in Thiel’s listening room, powered by the Krell FPB-600. That room measures 14’ high x 22’ wide x 36’ long, with 1.5" thick wall panels covering perhaps 1/4 - 1/3 of the wall surfaces and wall to wall wool carpet on hair pad. Room is of medium vibrancy, not dead, not live. The 3.6s sounded magnificent without a trace of brightness.
Not everybody has such a room. My point is that rooms make tons of difference which are best addressed via room / acoustic solutions rather than loudspeaker modifications.
I have been wrestling with other causes of the persistent complaints of high-frequency less than best-ness. I have identified (and previously mentioned) wavefront propagation anomalies that when mitigated, control a sonic instability perceived mostly in the high frequencies. The propagation turbulence is actually full-spectrum and my newly emerging acoustic wavefront propagation solution produces a full bandwidth uniquely settled and natural sound.
Another situation is that Jim chose aluminum driver diaphragms for lots of good reasons. However the tweeters breakup harshly around 25kHz. Even though that is above (generally accepted) hearing limits, that breakup mode couples with some wire anomalies to produce less than best transparency in the highs. Thiel’s solid18-2 in teflon from the 1978 model 03 was reconfirmed for the 1988 CS5 and again for the 2006 CS3.7. I like it a lot compared with other contenders. But there is a problem with skin-depth saturation beginning at 17kHz which interacts with the instability of that tweeter breakup mode. My new cable uses two smaller gauge conductors per leg to raise the saturation frequency to 42kHz. The chronic Thiel high frequency blockiness dissolves into grace and air. My assessment is that any perceived high frequency ’brightness’ will vanish without reducing amplitude via a series resistor.
I realize that this new cable solution has been a long time in the pipeline. It's now in its fourth generation prototype, and the design is settled. My 3rd generation hand loom is being built which allows small scale prototypes for beta co-developers and critical feedback. I believe it will be worth the substantial wait.
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tomthiel
Thank You for chiming in to address the SS2 query. I hope that you are well as we start Spring.
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
Thank You for posting your findings as well. Keep us posted as you massage those Mills resistors into your speakers.
Happy Listening!
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When I began this journey in 2018, I bought some including the SS2. I took it to Atlantic Systems, masters of repair and long-term warranty station for many high performance brands. Short story is that without schematics, they were unable to crack the code.
Regarding the code, Jim incorporated his proprietary boundary effects compensations into the amplification circuitry along with thermistors in the voice coils to boost power relative to heat and position. It seems that Jim kept all of this as proprietary and did all the repair himself at Thiel.
We need schematics to make progress. I don't yet have them, but I haven't given up hope.
If you haven't already, contact Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service. Those woofers are special, they have coil and pole piece shunts and all the accumulated Jim Thiel advancements. They're also extremely durable and if they're broken may be repairable. Try to keep them.
Regarding amps, Rob says that eventually the Canadian 'Bash' company built replacement amps. That's about all I can say about the subs. They are the best I've ever heard.
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Rob suggested the 2.5 ohms and said he heard that 2.7 ohms were used and had positive results .
Two days ago I ordered Mills 5 watt 2.5 ohm resistors from Michael Percy Audio , half the price that PartsConnexion is now charging .
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