Thiel Owners
Observation in this long standing thread... Theil and Vandersteen owners are similar. They are here for the love of music, more than the love of gear (which we also love). It's about companies who buck the trend and make what they feel is gear that's closer to 'the truth'. It's not even about competition with others, but about doing what they feel is right and not just about profits. We are all similar and it's why I always enjoy posts from owners of Theil. Back to regular programing, but had to post as it just hit me. |
2nd Note; a good point of view to consider as above. Do today's leading Audio operations have an understudy (or two) that could carry on the Founder's good work? What would Thiel Audio look like in 2021, had Jim, had an understudy? Thank God, we have Tom Thiel here and Rob Gillum in Lexington KY. These Gentlemen are still flying the Flag. Happy Listening! |
A lot depends on the particulars and personality of the company. I think Vandersteen and Wilson have survived with a son taking the reins. Some companies survive via economic viability, but even there look at B&W among others who struggle to maintain a viable identity. I am told that Thiel conducted a futile years-long, worldwide search for someone to carry on Jim's work. Niche companies don't offer the financial security or up-side potential that attracts first-rate talent within a winner-take-all capitalist model. I appreciate ctsooner's remark that it's about more than profits. Performance Audio is about the love of music. Making ends meet is what has to happen to support and enable the musical progress and development. |
I now have 2 very good options to power the Thiel CS3.7. Both do not publish specs for 2 Ohm operation but I spoke with the designer of each amp and they said they both have a lot of power at 2 Ohms. I was using a single Benchmark AHB2 with a ROON convolution file that dropped my output my 10dB. So I was using close to 80% of the volume to get around 65-70db. A strain on the amp. I now have 2 AHB2 in mono that are capable to 2 Ohm with an unpublished spec. The sound is great, a lot bigger, harder hitting, and engaging than with the single AHB2. the volume control is also set to about to about 50% for 65-70dB via the convolution. This is a home run. Cost is $6K for both brand new. I also got the CODA CSiB integrated the other day mainly for my RAAL SR1a headphones but I wanted to see how extra power translates with the Thiel CS3.7. In terms of the comparing it to a single AHB2 it is also was harder hitting, bigger, and engaging. I was getting totally into the music. The CODA however was not as crystal clear as the AHB2. Some may prefer that. I like the AHB2's presentation a little more because of the clarity. I guess that clarity is expressed by some softness to the sound on top. The details are there but it is not as sharply defined as the AHB2. The CODA was in 10/10 condition, was a used unit, built in 2018, and cost $3.4K. So these are 2 really great options to power the Thiel CS3.7. Do not let the low price dissuade you from checking them out. |
@yyzsantabarbara1, Your experience sounds very similar to mine. I had a single amp that was 200 w/ch into 8 ohms, around 300 into 4, and not specd into 2. It sounded ok with my 3.7s but I was motivated enough to buy a second one when my local store put the demo unit on sale. I was surprised at the improvement. Bigger, harder hitting, and more engaging is a great way to describe the difference. |
Listening to Santana Abraxas on the CS3.7 with 2 AHB2 and it is a night and day difference compared to a singe AHB2. Why didn’t I do this earlier? Well other than no money. What a great upgrade today. This is truly a great speaker, even after all these years. I am so happy I bought the CS3.7 and spent all that time and money to get it to this new like level. |
yyzsantabarbara I’ve just been sitting and re-listening to my collection with big smile on my face. In your honor, I’ll break out the Santana this morning! When my 5-channel Krell amplifier died, I had to do a lot of thinking, and research, and soul searching in a short amount of time. I’ve always (for 20+ years) built and maintained a home theater setup and then used that for both music and movies. But over the years movies went from maybe 60% importance to more like 20%. So with this 80%-music priority in mind, I decided to put the budget I had (arbitrarily) determined was reasonable into getting the best 2-ch/stereo MUSIC I could out of my "fronts" (Thiel 2.3s). And holy crap, was that ever the right decision for me. Literally for 20 years, I’ve fiddled with placement, DOLBY PRO LOGIC (buying and installing the promising DOLBY PRO LOGIC II! upgrade for my (at the time) Anthem pre/pro), trying and dismissing and trying again 5-channel stereo (later, "multi-channel" stereo, of course), trying desperately to get the enveloping, rich, vibrant sound I craved. And now I’ve made more progress toward that goal in 2 weeks than I’d made in the 20 years before. Long story short (too late), if I were going to put my amp $ into two channels, I’d still need something to run center and surrounds for movies/tv. And I also noticed that my trusty Onkyo pre/pro had begun its 2nd decade, with its 4 HDMI 1.4 inputs, etc. So I got a new Denon receiver to act as my pre-pro. For a 2-ch amp then, in addition to asking here, I’ve spent a lot of time on WhiteCamaroSS’s ampnanza thread (I’m on page, like, 15. I’ll be reading that for the rest of my life I think). Ultimately, I went with the PS Audio BHK Signature 250 "dual-mono". With my Krell as "trade in", I got it for just over $5k. I was excited about PS Audio being a relatively local company. Also, they have a great in-home 30 day policy, and everything I had read about the BHK 250/300s has been positive. I don’t even know if the Denon is going to be good for my surrounds and center (I assume they will), because all I want to do is listen to stereo music. I did set the Thiels as "small" on the Denon, with a crossover at 60 hz, and have two SVS subs in the corners helping out, but the Thiels and PS are doing most of the work. I keep geeking out to my wife saying, "THIS IS JUST TWO CHANNEL!!1!???!" And she gives me that smile and nod that made me marry her long ago. |
@jafant with regards to monoblocks I sold the Bryston 7B-ST's once I got my hands on a Krell FBI. My girlfriend was blown away by the difference as well. I hear everyones point on clarity and truth if you will however some recordings sound awful on neutral gear/systems. With my setups I want all of the best of Thiel without the leanness/harshness. Listening to a wide range of recordings from various sources (stream/LP/CD etc) and genres has led me to value some coloration if you will. My goal is not to sacrifice anything that the 2.7 and 3.6 do so well while still enjoying a wide range of music. |
ALL Today marks this thread's 5th Anniversary here on Audiogon. Since inception, we are acquiring and attracting new contributors and members of the Panel. Most of you guys enjoy Jim's earlier or vintage models. It was another banner year in 2020. Hopefully, we did not lose anyone to the virus? Stay Safe, especially, those of you in the larger cities. As for this new year, I would like to attract more Industry types. I know that you guys are reading this thread. Feel free to drop by and say Hello. Same goes for Dealers/Retailers. With only Cabling left, this year, I will complete my system. My Audio journey took a little longer than anticipated. Would I change course or direction? No. Thank You! to the Panel for continuing to "make it happen". Happy Listening! |
solobone22 Absolutely! I do not aurally enjoy a true neutral system as well. Too clinical, dry and thin to my ears. Silver cables will present this way on Thiel loudspeakers, especially, the newer models. Best practice, trust your own ears. I never thought that I would enjoy an Integrated Amp? Not only did I enjoy it, I purchased one! What other gear and cabling rounds out your current system? Happy Listening! |
I have to say that I wish I had the hearing that many here seem to have that they distinguish the subtlety of cables, etc. However, it is probably a good thing. What I experience is addictive enough as it is. Were my ears that good, I’d likely never get anything else done. I was able to pull up test tones on a search on Tidal. I know my Thiels can reproduce it, but I thought I’d blown my tweeter on the 14kHz tone. Nope. Just my ears. Too many live concerts over the years and work noise exposure. |
Have a question about the PX-02/05 crossovers. As we know, they are passive speaker level low pass filters to feed the Thiel active subs. They have only a single XLR output that I assume is “balanced”? So does anyone know what volts they output and if it is truly balanced? I realize it would be a function of the volts presented to it by the speaker power amplifier in question, but get me in the ballpark... |
@tomthiel...from 12/28... on your question concerning DAC/pre’s and the Benchmark DAC... have you been to audio science review.com? I think you will find it interesting. Your Benchmark amp truly lives up to its name. The Benchmark DAC does very well, but you might be interested in the testing of others there. |
snbeall - Rob at Coherent Source Service might have some definitive answers for you. In general, a big voltage swing in audio is 10 volts. Interesting thing about hearing is that our brain compensates somehow. My HF rolls off starting at 4K, but I can reliably hear the difference in filter types at 20kHz. I remember a study in the 80s or 90s demonstrating how we differentiate signals on carrier tones even when we can't hear them solo. At that time I could differentiate a 30kHz signal, which we all know is impossible. I'll visit that Science Review site again. Thanks |
Does anyone have the specs on the tweeter for the 3.6(D26AG-36)? If you listen off to the side and rather close to the tweeter you can hear crackling on music with strong lower treble upper mid energy - like timpani for classical music. If you listen out front you can't hear it at all at any volume. I'm not sure how long this has been there either. What are the chances that something has gone bad on the crossover? Will be calling Rob about this on Monday. Want to see what else is out there should I need new tweeters. |
Another thought - does anyone have 3.6's that could run a test for me? I can send you a song that produces the crackling. I'm thinking this may have always been there however you don't hear it unless you are really close and off to the side of the tweeter. I've already tried this on the 2.7's and did not hear the crackling regardless of where I stood or how close I was to the tweeter. |
Sounds like a fried tweeter to me. I think what causes it is when the leads break, the strands tend to be touching at low volume but at high excursions they lose contact and then regain it, causing a crackling sound. I recently had this problem with a Thiel Viewpoint I got off of ebay. It was damaged in shipping and I glued the woofer together and got it working. The tweeter was crackling though, I took it apart and saw that strands of the wire leading to the voice coil were broken. I ordered a new tweeter and it had the same problem almost immediately. I took it apart again and the leads were broken just like the other one. I measured the crossover output for the tweeter at 60hz and it was the same as the output for the woofer. The crossover was damaged in such a way that it was frying tweeters. |
@ctsooner That is what my hunt has been for. Any speaker can produce sound. A carefully matched system can reproduce music and that is what I’m after as well. Currently my most involving setup is this: Intel NUC running wtfplay (Synergistic Active USB) or Cal Audio Labs CL-10 (Synergistic X coaxial) --> MSB Analog DAC --> AudioQuest G Snake --> Krell FBI Integrated --> AQ 4 (I think) speaker cables --> Thiel CD2.7 Big wide deep dynamic with what I hear as accurate timbre of instruments. When I need bass that the 2.7 cannot reproduce I hookup a Definitive SuperCube II to the preamp outs on the Krell. |
@solobone22 @tomthiel It’s very hard to compare the PS Audio to the Krell for several reasons. I suspect the Krell has needed service for quite a while, so I’m sure I haven’t heard it at its best for a decade. Other changes I’ve made at the same time: I’m running two matching subs on the left and right corners and I’ve set the crossover at 60 hz instead of 80, which I always used before. It still worked okay through 3 channels with balanced cables but when I replaced the Onkyo Pre/Pro with a new Denon receiver and had to try RCA inputs, the Krell hummed badly. I looked into getting it serviced, but I can hardly tell if the company still exists. I left a message at a number I found online (that sounded like some dude’s cell phone) and never heard back. I didn’t have time to do a lot of research, but found the @whitecamaross thread and saw the positive blurb at the top about the BHK 300 and saw the TAS buyer’s guide positively comparing the 250 to the 300. When I saw that PS Audio was made here in Colorado and gave a generous discount for old broken trade-ins, it was a no-brainer for me. The main thing I can say in comparison is that with the Krell I always felt the treble was too harsh. I may be over sensitive to treble anyway, but I was never 100% able to listen to violins or trumpets until I heard about Audyssey. It was less about room correction and more about rolling off highs, but Audyssey was a game changing technology for me. With the PS Audio, the 2.3s are still forward if not bright, but although I keep thinking I’m going to get that ringing in my ears I never quite get it. I didn’t need to be in a hurry to run Audyssey at all. Now that I have run it, I’m running it "Flat". I listen between 70-75 db on average. Louder than that is still a little too much "in my face". But at that level it really does sound better than ever. Like I said before I no longer need to mess with surround modes to get 3D sound. |
@solobone22 that speaker is still taken apart in the corner of the garage. Maybe I'll get to it and maybe I won't. I've already done 2 repairs and bought a replacement part. Knowing that I need at least two more parts to get them working has me considering just keeping the one that works and ditching the other. I bought a single PowerPlane 1.2 off ebay for $135. I'll probably just troll for bargains rather than sink more time and money into this mess. |
@therealpupalei yes you needed to short out the XLR inputs when using the single ended inputs as that can cause issues its unfortunate that you had such issues as the Krell TAS is an excellent piece of gear. I would have liked to hear your impression of it once it was working properly. I have called Krell on several occasions and have had no issues. With regards to the Krell TAS they said unless it was broken or having issues it did not need to be serviced. @jon_5912 I would have shipped it back. Had that happen with a pair of 2.4's unfortunately. The cabinet arrived cracked and one of the drivers was blown. Honestly I think the owner knew they were damaged and wanted the insurance money. Fortunately it was through Ebay and I promptly got my money back. |
@solobone22 - I'd be glad to listen to your test tune; I have a pair of 3.6s in my studio as permanent references. Note that Rob has rebuild kits for that tweeter (CS2.2, 3.6, 5). If it is fried, I suggest sending the whole unit to Rob, because the ferro-fluid can get cooked and thick and need replacement. Extremely low likelihood of XO damage. |
@solobone22 Yeah, tbh I was just ready. I could have put more effort in, but I got about a third of the money back for it that I spent on it 20 years ago. It had a good run. Hopefully "they" will fix it up and someone will get some joy out of it. I don’t know about shorting out the XLR input, and will look into it. I am getting a little hum through my current system when I connect my PC through HDMI. So far, unplugging the PC’s HDMI cable does the trick and the amp goes dead silent. |
@therealpupalei what do you think of the PS amp? I have a Denon HTR and have hooked it up to my Krell to Thiel setup. This wasn't a good match at all. The preamp I use now (Levinson 326S) is significantly more expensive however is an excellent match for the system. I've also used the Mytek Brooklyn as preamp/DAC and the MSB Analog as preamp/DAC. The Levinson gives it more weight with more meat on the bones without interfering with what the 3.6's do so well. |
Too clinical, dry and thin to my ears. Silver cables will present this way on Thiel loudspeakers, especially, the newer models. Sigh. It's worth pointing out occasionally that there is no actual basis for such a claim, beyond imagination. Audiophiles misleading audiophiles.... Anyway, back to Thiels... |
@solobone22 -- If you listen off to the side and rather close to the tweeter you can hear crackling on music with strong lower treble upper mid energy - like timpani for classical music. If you listen out front you can't hear it at all at any volume.I hate to say it, but I've discovered exactly the same issue with one of my 3.7 speakers. It happens most audibly with solo piano music. Just some occasional "tinsel" in the sound that you have to be up close and at a slight angle to really hear. But sometimes it's audible from farther away. I wish this was not happening and I'm not sure what I blown tweeter would really sound like. I mean, I played in a rock band as a kid. Now, we blew speakers. What I'm hearing is nothing like that. |
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Just some occasional "tinsel" in the sound that you have to be up close and at a slight angle to really hear." I've heard that in some instances from one of my 3.7s (and from the listening position). Then I don't hear similar stuff for a couple of months. Sometimes, I've gone back and played what I thought were the same cuts and heard nothing. |
You guys are on to something. I got a pair of 3.6s about 1.5 years ago and discovered the phenomenon you all are addressing. It barely, if at all, exists on the CS2.2 or 3.5, of great familiarity to me, and subsequently not very present on the CS1.5, 1.6, PowerPoint or 02. I have spent weeks, spread over months, learning about "tinsel", which I called "sizzle". My observations are anecdotal, but quite thoroughly studied and addressed. This sizzle has led me down a rabbit hole into a warren. I have teamed up with Douglas Pauley who has newly patented a technology to manage turbulent fluid flow - in this case air coupling to the room. Big story there, more later. The sizzle problem revolves around the comparatively large flat area above the 3.6 tweeter, where the 3.5, for example, has none. With a manual or electronic stethoscope, I can hear the problem distinctly as sonic eddies skittling around that surface. One contributor is the mid-tweeter both driving the same frequencies from different physical positions and geometries. I can stimulate the sizzle most readily with female vocal. Yesterday I hung out all day with the Rhino collection of The Trio - Parton, Harris and Rondstadt. The 3.6s are at the north end of the room with the PowerPoints in the southeast corner and my 02 under development on a corner baffle in the same southeast corner. I switch speakers with knife switches to audition same cut, same equipment, same room at same time from the same listening position. The 3.6s are the worst offender by far. Cascadesphil - my working hypothesis is that dry air and moist air couple and resolve the various forces differently - not a theory, but a hunch developed over the past year of experimentation. Grille cloth helps a little, but not much. My best solution has been pruned from bunches of ideas and materials, landing on UltraFine UltraSuede on F11 wool felt on the entire baffle. I haven't developed a meaningful measurement scheme, and such may be beyond my resources. I know through study that we're in esoteric territory. Another factor in play is the turbulent waveform launch from the drivers. Various technologies applied to driver bezels and faceplates aid in transforming that very turbulent launch flow into more laminar flow. Substantive improvements there. There's much more to share, and I'll have some news to report very soon. |
Prof - I want to thank you personally for cheering the 02s awhile back. Your enthusiasm caused me to get a few pairs which are now my primary workhorses for comparing solutions and making sense of upgrade package choices. The stock 02 is surprisingly good. Plus, it is readily upgradeable via braced cabinets, XO components, etc. and the application of the laminar-launch baffles and work in process of the new port fluid-flow technologies. I recommend all of you find some. We'll have both DIY and home-based upgrade packages sometime this year. I have some as Christmas presents with stock drivers and crossovers, with modified baffles and grilles. What a treat to give, And BTW, they shine compared against some current market darlings. |
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Cascadesphil - my working hypothesis is that dry air and moist air couple and resolve the various forces differently - not a theory, but a hunch developed over the past year of experimentation." Tom - thanks. I sort of figured it could be something like that. After one session, where I had some issues, I actually grabbed my allen wrench to make sure the drivers were tight and they were. For a bit it drove me a little crazy (and some would say that's not a far drive) and I went back to the video on how the 3.7s were made and was thinking about looking inside. Then when I played the same stuff where I didn't notice a problem. Back in early March of 2020, I had my AC units tuned up (as I usually do annually and I have two zones, one for a large bonus room upstairs and I go upstairs about once or so a week to move dust around and flush the toilet). Bacteria gets attached to the area around the coils and they get cleaned with either wipes or Lysol. I decided to put in the Patriot UV light (https://www.patriotiaq.com/#!/Patriot_UV) on the main zone (and my bedroom and the living area I use is on the main zone) at the time of the tune up. Since then, I began to notice (don't know if it is coincidence) a couple of things. I've been sleeping a drop better. Also, I began to notice (at least a bit more) those anomalies with the 3.7s. I probably noticed them before that but to me it seemed less that I chalked it up to perhaps my ears were dirty (I go to the ENT on average about every 10 months as my ear canals build up wax) at the time. |
