Try it. Send a PM for more detail.
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Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,807 responses Add your response
As I mentioned, I don't have 3.7s. If I were testing them, I would find some music and/or test signal that reliably produce the problem. I would use a stethoscope to reliably hear it. I would then mount felt and test, then add UltraSuede and test. Etc. The process is slow and deliberate. There is room for other input such as internal wire rattling, etc. I saw a video that showed the driver wires fed through silicone tubing. Perhaps that's a culprit. It is interesting that more than one person has heard something similar. I don't know the answer, but I do register your experience. |
tmsrdg - I don't have a track. My MO is to play more music rather than concentrating on a single cut. So, I skip through the disc to find passages that do whatever I need to do. I will say that disc one is more obnoxious, disc 2 is the best, and the disc 3 out-takes are variable.If I had to choose, I would choose disc 1 as most likely to misbehave. I hope that gives you somewhere to begin. |
At Starsound we have our wire in our speakers that is surrounded by a double jacket. Between the void of the 2 jackets we fill with our Micro Bearing Steel. The bearing acts as a shield and as a reactive resonance control system. The bearing dissapates vibration before it contacts the conductor. Tom |
Prof - for my explorations of imagination I use the 02 as a path not taken. An entire business could have been built on developing and enriching that simple two way box. My unambiguous progress is in the realm of the acousto-mechanical: grille and baffle treatment, port mechanics, cabinet bracing, etc. Enter electro-magnetics and tings get much murkier for me. In the XO, my straightforward progress has been separating the XO halves and moving away from the driver. The drivers themselves represent middle ground. Substituting a modern Thiel (CS.5) woofer removes the normal distortions of normal drivers. Similarly, higher grade caps and resistors certainly solve more than they confuse. But the realm of wire is truly deep stuff. I have ruled out silver entire or plated. Entirely silver is unaffordable; plating introduces problems, both audible and measurable. I suspect you would enjoy finding someone who really knows wire. The guy in charge of Belden's normal wire has created a high-end entry. It looks a lot like the Kimber stuff that blew our minds in the early 80s. (At $1,000 / pair foot in the day) it broke down our mental barriers to how wire can matter. I don't know enough. Wire experiments are cumbersome, tedious and expensive. I have migrated to using the 02 with a CS.5 woofer (very linear full range) with no crossover and 4 sets of inputs connected to 4 lengths x 1 foot long, all wired to the driver. Each input pair is fed by equal lengths of Straightwire star quad Octave II. One cable twisted pair per input pair. A second speaker stretches my test samples to 8 pairs. A second speaker stretches my test samples to 8 pairs. I compare the 4 variants in one speaker and then run a FuzzMeasure sweep, which shows distinct (albeit small) differences. No test is perfect, but this one is fairly streamlined. Wire differences, both audible and measured, are definite and have become instructive. But, far from definitive yet. More study required as the academics say. By the way, guys, I'm looking for a few pairs of 02s to hotrod. |
Prof - I would love your feedback regarding their sound, when the time comes. I'll say that the more that I improve the technical performance and address the shortcomings caused by our naivete in 1976, the less they sound like Thiel 02s, and the more they sound like more recent Thiels. And it's not simply that better is better. |
JAFant - jazz is great all around for its layers of nuance. And there's a lot of well-made jazz out there. I landed on my wide rather than deep approach to sources partly as a contrast to the usual way. Thiel, and most others I knew at the time, used favorite tracks, known to be well made, thereby minimizing the variable of aural input "noise". I call that deep as in drilling farther and further into the subtleties of that track. But, what if those pristine tracks didn't stimulate the "sizzle / tinsel ", etc. Whatever the cause, a problem could be dismissed as a "bad recording". But what if (as I now suspect) some of those "bad recordings" might just be exacerbating shortcomings in the speaker. This territory is where most of my detective work is happening. |
prof I don't endorse any. In most realistic use cases there would be no need to pay extra money for silver cables. Silver is a teeny bit more conductive than copper, but even that can be made up by a higher awg copper wire. And in most non-extreme cases (e.g. crazy long cable runs) it's not hard at all to choose a copper wire of sufficient awg and characteristics to work just fine. Properly used, there is no inherent "characteristics" of "silver wire" that changes the frequency balance vs copper, such as to actually thin out the sound (e.g. by attenuating frequencies in the warmth range - e.g 60 to 250Hz or lower mid 250 to 500Hz range). It's a psychological thing. We know silver is visually "bright" so audiophiles imagined "sounds bright," this became an audiophile meme, and so now there's the "silver sounds bright" or "thin" concept among audiophiles. Silver coated cables may extend the life of some cables, but that's about it - it's not going to change the sound in proper use cases. |
Tom Thiel.. About the Sonoran wire from Starsound..this product line has been made since the early 90's and has never had any relationship with MIT. As with all our products the Audio Points and Sistrum family of audio racks and platforms.. and most of the cables... we have designed in methods for resonance control and mechanical grounding. We know from years of listening experience that any mechanical conductor such as a listening room a speaker cabinet a stand and any type of electrical conductor can be altered by vibration and resonance. We have learned from previous works that if you overdamp a product that you eat into the spectrum that suggests that you are listening to a live event. There is a fine line in keeping it real. Even a signal wire can be over controlled and we accrued many hours listening to the same wire again and again surrounded by different materials and geometric shapes even in the same family of elements. While we thought that a container of steel bearings 5 million per pound would sound the best around our conductor we instead sonically chose surrounding the conductor with the same material and geometry but one which had a part count of 970,000 bearings per pound. And no I didn't make a part count myself. Even the conductor can be damped to sonic detriment. Same with speaker stands. No to sand or lead shot as those materials have a very low shear velocity and will overdamp the device. Even with the steel shot we usually suggest filling a post 1/2 to 2/3's..As you add more you suddenly hear too much darkness and then the sound stage begins to shut down. Darkness and virtually no light. Not that. Recently I have been experimenting with materials and coatings that can be easily applied to many different shapes and surfaces. They control shear induced resonance which travels on and thru any solid material. I have applied this same material to an active room device that greatly enhances laminar flow and reduces the impression of room boundaries. Listening in wide open space. Tom |
Tom Thiel The metal and its shape is more reactive to vibration. In this case the reactive material will dissipate the vibrational energy because of the bearing motion. The steel bearing can also be another barrier to RFI penetration along with any other metal barrier that may already exist around the conductor. Back to the whole shear velocity thing. In this case you don't want even smaller more densely packed particles that have very slow velocities because they could or will over damp the copper or silver wire. As I wrote earlier with the same material and shape the smallest material that could be more densely packed did not sound as good as it's larger brother of the same shape which is less densely packed. Any single material boundary can swamp and overwhelm the sound of another material and its boundary.. From the International Atomic Energy Agency below. I found this years ago and forgot and found it again recently. I want to post this on other threads as it will describe how particle waves react with each other and their material boundaries. https://www.ndt.net/forum/files/ut--.pdf Look to pages 38 to 41 or so. What is described is how and what we hear and how different materials and shapes sound the way they do. I want to thank a lady Debbie Miles, a seismologist for 40 years, she has greatly influenced my venture into how materials and shapes interact and their influence on what we hear.. Tom |
Is there a known replacement for the 2.2 8" woofer? Are any still available? There is a pair of 2.2's for sale locally at a ridiculous price with one woofer likely blown. Alternately - is rebuilding the woofer an option? I won't be giving up my 3.5's but at the price offered I'm thinking of getting them for a relative or friend - or just to have around for fun |
3rd - Rob Gillum is the man! He rebuilt my CS2.3 mid/highs in 2017. Now they 1) sound better than new especially the 3D soundstage, 2) are cured of any slight aggressiveness that Thiels may be criticised for and 3) were perfect straight out of the box with no running in required. I have auditioned several current $10,000 speakers and none of them come close to my Thiels. He can surely work magic on the woofers. |
I wanted to share my experiences in the past few weeks with using Townshend Super Tweeters on my 3.5s. I have deleted my earlier post on this as it was published in the middle of a deep conversation on amps and I think it must have flown over everyone’s radar. Therefore I am reposting it as I do think my findings are worthy of note for Thiel Owners, and actually anyone with great speakers...
and I’d be very interested to hear of other Thiel owner thoughts on/experiences with super tweeters.
Given that Max Townshend developed these around Quad ESL 57s, I actually bought these first and foremost to accompany my own 57s. While they are highly impressive in that application, I have to report that they actually make a much bigger difference with my 3.5s. The effects of these super tweeters are far more wide ranging than just improving the top end, which they do incredibly well. They actually benefit the entire audible spectrum and provide much greater clarity, definition and musicality right down into the deep bass. Soundstage improves in all dimensions. Images occupy far more palpable spaces and it’s the sort of upgrade that has you listening late into the night to hear elements of your music collection rendered better than ever in the context of your own system. The super tweeters have multiple gain settings to allow a lot of adjustment to best fit the system/room. It’s pretty easy to dial them in and find a beautiful sweet spot position. They are quite small and fit perfectly on the veneered top section of the speakers. Rather than changing the sonic character of the 3.5s, they seem to make it even more obvious and my own feelings are that these wonderful creations by Jim now sound in a different, much higher class. The UK-made super tweeters can be imported direct from Townshend via Audiogon and I can vouch that Townshend’s service is first class. They even offer a money back deal, but that’s easy to do as I struggle to imagine anyone ever sends these back after trialing them. They certainly aren’t cheap, but the overall effects more than justify the investment. It seems that every subtle nuance is improved. Yes I think they are that good. They still seem to be running in and progressively improving even further, which can be most easily heard in ever more convincing timbre and astounding extra detail retrieval. Not sure if Tom’s plans include adding a super tweeter to his 3.5 tweaks, but here’s a no brainer upgrade you can try for yourself right now. Highest recommendation. A great addition after you’ve first added dual subs. I think you’ll love your Thiels even more. I know I do, and I didn’t think that was possible. |
So, Nelson seems to doubt the forte’s ability to drive the 3.6 more than the adcom’s oddly. So I decided to risk it. https://youtu.be/X540Levd5nU I don’t think the bass is as dynamic as it could be as it would be with other amps of higher quality. |
thoft, I've matched the Forte' 3 with Thiel CS 2's a couple of times for different friends. A very nice match. But, the CS 2's are 6 Ohm nominal / 5 Ohm minimum load. I wouldn't match the Forte' with the 3.6's impedance load. Furthermore, there is some question as to whether or not there are still IGBT devices, used in some Forte's, available should they need service. Nelson designed the early Forte' stuff, the later Forte's were designed by Bladelius, et al. BTW, I seem to recall that the Palladium's quickly give up Class A bias when presented with sub 8 Ohm loads. Despite being optimistic when they where released, I remember being quite disappointed when auditioning them. |
https://www.arcdb.ws/model/D110 I mean look at the capacitor bank like holy crap |
To re-iterate a tiny bit of anecdotal amp data on Thiels. I’m still having fun going back and forth between a loaned Bryston 4B3 and my CJ monoblock tube amps (140W side) on my Thiel 2.7s. Anyone who thinks Thiels need gobs of SS power should hear this set up. Even compared to the Bryston, 140w of tubes sounds absolutely balls-to-the-wall energetic, punchy and dynamic. The Bryston provides a tiny bit more grip on the sound, but the bass is by no means "loose" with the CJ and it sounds at least as punchy, probably even more so. With the CJ the sound seems more "live" IMO. |
I can contribute a bit of Thiel historical perspective. Among all the good, great and worthy amps out there, Thiel gravitated toward a few brands, who also gravitated toward Thiel speakers for mutual product development. This thought is up to 1995 when I lost touch. Those amps of choice included Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston and Conrad Johnson (and early Classe & Threshold). Part of what manufacturers need is political affinity: sharing dealers, design philosophy, potential mutual customers, and so forth. But they also need performance-compatible products that make each other sing. There are undoubtedly other good matches out there, I'm just sharing where Thiel as a company, that is Jim Thiel as a designer, felt most at home. |
tomthiel Thank You for more Thiel Audio history. I hope that you are well and enjoying upgrade projects via Hot Rod Garage. It would be interesting in hearing a comparison between Nelson's original GFA 555 vs the current replacement model. Back then, Adcom made a 565 mono block Amp as well. Happy Listening! |
FYI there is a smorgasbord of vintage thiels for sale on the SF Bay Area Craigslist. 3.6’s for $850 that look good 2) 2.2’s one for $250 w/ the probable blown woofer one for $395 1 or 2 3.5s in questionable shape 3 or more! .5s and a 1.5 I was thinking of grabbing that $250 2.2 but don’t need another project or pair when I really think about it. |
