Thiel Owners

@tomthiel

3.5’s on EBay listed in NY. Rough shape and look to need new drivers. Bet they can be negotiated down in $

tomthiel,

A life time lover of Thiel Audio, I never managed to own any myself - either due to $, space, or SAF restrictions. Although I had never heard them, the Powerpoints always intrigued me, so when I recently stumbled onto a set of 5 Powerpoint 1.2’s, I grabbed them. I was blown away in a rudimentary 2.1 audition on the floor (hardwood over concrete). In fact, the imaging was so convincing that my SO wandered into the room and asked what I’d done to the floorstanders next to them. “Her voice sounds so natural”. She then noticed the Powerpoints and asked, “And what are those things on the floor?! They look like boobs!” Which, in fact they do. No wonder I’d always been intrigued! In fact, I was so impressed that I’ve been accumulating Powerplanes as well - perhaps to supplement the PPoints in a future multichannel project. I’m even a bit sorry to have missed those recent Viewpoints for the bedroom TV.

I was powering the PP1.2’s with a Bluesound Powernode 2i which is what I had on hand. Although the little (60W) hybrid digital amp is quite respectable in it’s own right, I have to wonder if I couldn’t do better. I have tried to follow your PP1.2 saga, but the thread is HUGE and the search function may not have turned up all your posts. I’ve never found what you are using to drive yours. Any recommendations - preferably used/depreciated? And do you cross them to a sub? I’ve accumulated both the 2 and 5 channel dedicated Thiel passive sub crossovers as well. ;-)

The trail seems to have grown cold on the external crossover mods - seemingly related to the bankruptcy settlement. Any updates there?

Thx in advance. And in retrospect as well.

tmsrdg,

I've been hunting a SI-1 Integrator for some time. Learning now that they have reliability problems may cause me to reconsider that. I have both the passive PX crossovers but find the "normal" XLR input to be much too bass shy. My solution has been to use a XLR to RCA conversion cable to the LFE input so I can adjust the level. Not sure if this approach is equivalent to the "normal" input in phase or otherwise. Anyone else with similar experience?

Have a question about the PX-02/05 crossovers. As we know, they are passive speaker level low pass filters to feed the Thiel active subs. They have only a single XLR output that I assume is “balanced”? So does anyone know what volts they output and if it is truly balanced? I realize it would be a function of the volts presented to it by the speaker power amplifier in question, but get me in the ballpark...

@tomthiel...from 12/28... on your question concerning DAC/pre’s and the Benchmark DAC... have you been to audio science review.com? I think you will find it interesting. Your Benchmark amp truly lives up to its name. The Benchmark DAC does very well, but you might be interested in the testing of others there.

I have to say that I wish I had the hearing that many here seem to have that they distinguish the subtlety of cables, etc. However, it is probably a good thing. What I experience is addictive enough as it is. Were my ears that good, I’d likely never get anything else done. I was able to pull up test tones on a search on Tidal. I know my Thiels can reproduce it, but I thought I’d blown my tweeter on the 14kHz tone. Nope. Just my ears. Too many live concerts over the years and work noise exposure.

Jon_5912,

Back to amp question, you might want to check out Starke Sound's AD4.320. They are on sale, satisfy many of your requirements, offer hassle free 30 day in home trial. A unique D class module boosted to 600kHz and analog power supply. No association other than keen interest. Mine arrived last night but remains boxed. 

tomthiel et al,

What are your thoughts on this paper from Townshend Audio about cable technology. Would seem to fly in the face of everything we - or at least I - know or believe about speaker level cable:

http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/The%20Sound%20of%20Music%20and%20Error%20in%20Your%20Speaker%20Cab...

Then, on a separate topic... going back a few pages (I don’t get here as often as I’d like), you were commenting on the development of “coherent source” in various Thiel models over the years. During your discussion, you referred to second order crossovers being used in the SCS series. Would that include our beloved Powerpoints? I’m crushed! Although I can’t argue with the results. 

tomthiel et al,

What are your thoughts on this paper from Townshend Audio about cable technology. Would seem to fly in the face of everything we - or at least I - know or believe about speaker level cable:

http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/The%20Sound%20of%20Music%20and%20Error%20in%20Your%20Speaker%20Cab...

Then, on a separate topic... going back a few pages (I don’t get here as often as I’d like), you were commenting on the development of “coherent source” in various Thiel models over the years. During your discussion, you referred to second order crossovers being used in the SCS series. Would that include our beloved Powerpoints? I’m crushed! Although I can’t argue with the results.

I have a Starke Sound AD4.320 amp on trial currently. Had some issues getting it working with my PX-02 crossover and USS sub, but suddenly everything worked. Intermittent connection somewhere. I have Powerpoint 1.2’s on my hardwood over (heavy urban) concrete floor. One might scoff whether this is a true Thiel setup. I know that tomthiel who owns some does not. These are serious two way speakers that happen to be optimized for a planar infinite baffle at 45 degrees setup. This is probably the best sound of my life. Seriously.

I used to be a an “amp denier” having been spoiled by the ‘70’s amp races to “perfection” - which the 70’s were. They became far less of a limiting factor. Speaker tech had to catch up. It did.

As you know from my recent post, I have been a Meridian believer for the past two decades. I abandoned the archaic analogue multi component system as flawed. I now have (for the time being) a hybrid system with a digital streaming front end and “digital” amplification to an analogue conventional crossover passive speaker. 
The result is sublime. And I suddenly understand what modern amplification has brought. Leapfrogged again. 

Jon_5912,

About wire/cable effects, I’m with you - a bit skeptical (and feeling bad about it). That said, I have to think that if there are effects, many would come from length, not to mention physical connections/interfaces (as tomthiel has found), so that eliminating or reducing them would be a good goal.

The end result of what you describe as you shorten the connection chain is the active speaker. And the end result of your other notion of taking it a step further and keeping the signal in the digital domain as far as possible are Meridian’s DSP speakers. It’s why I’ve owned a pair for two decades. My Thiels are a more recent enjoyment.



tomthiel,

I can’t help but think that going active was discussed/explored @ Thiel Audio. Could you comment? I can’t imagine what could have been produced were Meridian to use Thiel drivers....

It ruins all the mix and match tinkering that many audiophiles love, but I think you would get a lot more of the younger generation (not to mention spouses) interested in audiophile sound. And honestly get better sound in the end. KEF and Devialet are interesting current examples.

In my perfect world, there would be standardized module sizes similar in principle to rack mount 1U, 2U, etc. that manufacturers could produce and swap out to update as advances come. 

beetlemania,

I may be coming into your 2.4 saga late, but when you mention sub reinforcement, why do you go Vandersteen? Rather than Thiel that have very well matched subs - particularly via speaker level PX crossovers? I have at least 6 different subs that I have tried to integrate via line level input. The current system with PX crossover is by far the most natural and completely integrated I’ve heard. Granted, there is zero support when the amp eventually gives out. Is that your motivation?
 

beetlemania,

tomthiel and Rob have said they lack the schematics for any of the active electronics (at least until the bankruptcy is settled - the hope being that they might turn up once they can sift the ashes). This includes all of the sub amps. The amplification stage itself was OEM’d out toward the end (BASH?) so might be serviceable. The secret sauce of Jim’s room boundary circuits is a different story. I happen to have a SS-1 whose original amp died and was replaced with the latter USS amp plate which (I am hoping) will be serviceable.

That said, can you point me to page number where your 2.4 DIY work is discussed?

Sorry, but I’m going to take the thread away from CS 2.4’s for a moment (but not too far I believe?)

I just picked up a mint pair of PCS’s and within 3 seconds of firing them up, I realized that they were something special.

I have a USS equivalent (SS-1 with USS amp) that I was never able to manage a satisfactory match with my Powernode 1.2’s on the floor - despite both a PX-02 and PX-05 matched crossover. I have a SCS4 PX-05 that I thought must be a pretty close match to the PCS crossover, so tried it.

Listening to the new Chrissie Hynde album on Tidal MQA (and Billie Eilish before that), I have my mouth agape. Completely new level in comparison to the Powerpoints, as well as all my Monitor Audio, Martin Logan bookshelves, not to mention my beloved Meridian DSP actives.

So now my first question. I’ve always considered the PCS to be miniaturized (more easily shipped) CS2.4’s. Don’t they use the same coax mid/treble driver? The room simply blooms with the sound! And it’s a LARGE space.

That coax driver is really something.

Oh, I forgot to mention that what I’m powering the PCS’s with is a lowly Bluesound Powernode 2i. A Hypex based/licensed amp rated at 100W into 4 ohms. Dunno… I’ve been an audiophile for a few decades now. This Hypex amp comes and goes to black. Handles anything thrown at it above 2 ohms. And possibly below. And I can hold it in one hand.

Not a challenge. Or threat. Just an observation. 

This is my fourth (or fifth?) purchase from TMR. All were very positive experiences. Not only do they attract and screen for good quality pre-owned equipment, but more importantly their packaging has always been top notch. Anyone who has purchased pre-owned knows how important proper packaging and shipping is. And their 14 day home trial is just icing. Not affiliated or anything. Just satisfied customer.

That said, my question seems to have fallen away. Is the coax driver in the PCS the same as in the CS 2.4?

@jon_5912.. yes. I got them from TMR. I really didn’t need more either, but I’ve always been curious about the PCS model. Frankly, I fully expected to play and return, but as I wrote, I’m smitten. Computer speakers?! - these things fill my 15,000 cubic ft space! And they are bigger than you might think. They would not fit on a desk. Well…not readily anyway.

tomthiel,

Thanks for insider info on the PCS. Wondering why you referred to them as the “Y2K PCS” however? - as if there was perhaps another (later?) version…

For what it’s worth, peering thru the access port shows a Jan 2005 manufacture date on the woofer. So it sounds as if the PCS never had the coax driver from the 2.4, but that this particular one may have an “improved” model from the 2.3, correct?

I was hoping it might be a miniaturized (i.e. easily shipped and transported) 2.4 with similar performance.

Not that it’s performance isn’t satisfying!

beetlemania,

Surprised about your (less than adequately disclosed) damages, because I failed to mention their high quality photography and was almost going to comment on their almost obsessive disclosures.

The last two items I purchased had photographs of the tiniest of nicks and rubs - very easily touched up with a Sharpie. I have purchased a couple “As-Is” scratch and dent items from them with obvious damage - but even at that, it was very clear from the photos what I was getting.

I wanted to point out a pair of SS-1 Smartsubs going for an exceptional price on Ebay. They are pickup only, buyer didn’t want to deal with packaging/shipping unless they didn’t go in auction. Since they now have one bid, they will go. San Jose (CA) is a bit too far drive from the Midwest, so I’m out, but if there are any of you closer and so inclined…

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124864673964?hash=item1d1283b8ac:g:Jd8AAOSwibthId2W

tomthiel et al,

I assume everyone is familiar with Townshend’s isolation products? Tonywinga seems to have come up with a poor man’s Townshend Isolation platform:
http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-equi...

I have yet to come across any of these on the used market to try out (at least in my desired price range). But the principles converted my thinking away from spikes/hard coupling to isolation. Those unfamiliar may enjoy the read.

As for those panel resonances, if I can easily get inside the cabinet, I have tried something like this (or similar) with success:
https://www.parts-express.com/Sonic-Barrier-3-4-3-Layer-Damping-Material-w-PSA-18-x-24-260-530

As I understand it, the seismic effects of the Townshend products are a byproduct but not really the thrust of the products. It is just a demonstrable, measurable performance of the degree of isolation. The lack of transmittance of vibrations - into as well as reflected from the floor - seems to be more the thrust of their approach. Townshend also addresses the "recoil" effect in his discussions. The Isoacoustics line of products addresses the same recoil issue, albeit with a different approach. May be of interest. Conventional thinking on this may be skewed.

My current setup is hardwood directly glued to urban suspended prestressed concrete slab with resilient footings (mostly to not mar the flooring). The lack of a soundboard beneath the speakers seems to have made a definite difference.  

Seven years and approaching 12500 posts! Does anyone have any pointers on how to easily get into the middle somewhere? Is there a way to jump to a specific date or period? Wading through 5 pages at a time is agonizing if you’ve come late to the party.