The 2.8 minimum impedance are manufacturer specs. There have been independent measurements (e.g.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements) indicating it is either 2.4 or 2.3. I've had different amps on my 3.7s including a Bryston 4BSST, 14BSST, Modwright KWA 150SE and the last two have been Class D (using a Ric Schultz EVS 1200 now). When my friend worked at a hifi shop many moons ago, I helped deliver a bunch of things and often Thiel was paired with Levinson (when I had my 7.2s I had a Proceed HPA). Like anything else it is dependent one's room and listening habits (music preferences and loudness level). My main room in the old place (I started with 2.3s, then 7.2s and then 3.7s) was huge (something like 7,000 cubic feet that opened into other spaces and when I had an old Bryston 4BST (not the SST), I actually drove it into momentary clipping. The 14BSST (15 amp version) could not handle the impedance (would go into thermal shutdown during music or movies which where somewhat intense) and I ended up building a custom amp stand with fans (which solved the issue). The 3BSST wasn't as bad a load but would get the 14BSST heat sinks hot enough to burn one's hand. The Modwright amp ran a hair cooler (and the heatsinks where inside the case). The room in the new place is big but not as big as the old place and the Modwright did a bit better but not as well as either of the Class Ds I've used (which bested it in every way and it still shocks me to touch the amp case and hardly feel anything warmth.
Showing 50 responses by cascadesphil
Thiel speakers, especially the older models, are the poster children for needing everything right in the chain before them (e.g. electronics, cables) as they tend to be less forgiving than some other brands (e.g. laid back British type speakers). I've owned the 2.3s many moons ago. Do yours have the original tweeters or the later (vented) ones they changed to (and I'm sure someone like Tom or Coherent Source Service would know)? What is the rest of the system like electronics wise, cable wise and what about the room (size, treatments, etc.). My friend also worked at a high end shop years back and I helped deliver many models. The tweeters can sound bright if pushed hard.
I've owned the 2.3s, 7.2s and now the 3.7s. I find the 3.7s to be more forgiving. The 7.2s were better than the 2.3s with regard to brightness as there was a crossover to a midrange at 1kHz before the crossover to the tweeter at 3KHz (and a crossover at 200Hz) vs. the 2.3s at 900Hz and 3kHz. |
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I googled expansive grout and all the top results were for non-explosive demolition grout. That can’t be right." https://www.targetproducts.com/portfolio-item/portland-expanding-grout-quikrete/ |
I do not recall (from a review) which IcePower module the Peachtree uses. They do have spec sheets. I am not sure they will have the detail you are seeking. They are at the IcePower site: https://icepoweraudio.com/products/amplifier-power-modules/as-series/# |
Bose has always been active on the litigation front -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose_Corporation I'm not even sure that they were the first with direct reflecting technology in speakers. Many moons ago I worked in Center City Philadelphia. There was an older gentleman who had a small but nice audio shop. He had speakers that had good drivers in them (not cheap ones) and had them near the wall with a piece of plexi-glass reflecting them into the wall. For that type of sound, it was outstanding. There were music celebrities who would visit the store. I believe (to the best of my memory) Bose threatened legal action (and he probably was selling them years before they came out with it) and he just didn't have resources to fight it. Bose is not alone. Many companies with lots of resources flex their muscle. I remember having some brick work done on an old house and the company name was 'Bricks R Us' withe the 'R' backwards and he got a nasty letter from Toys R Us (with the threat of legal action) and on the invoice he went over the backwards R by hand and changed it to a B. Smaller companies, whether it's Thiel or others, are not going to be able to match resources. It's just the way the system works (it's not perfect is necessarily right). I don't like it either and all I can do is not personally buy products from such companies (that's all anyone can do). |
Tom - I worked in Center City Philadelphia from late 1985 through late 1996. There were two hifi shops nearby. One was Nathan Muchnick which was on a main street and the old guy's store (Greenfields???) was on a side street. Been over 23 years. I really enjoyed hearing his speakers. I have multiple systems today (just don't like selling stuff so most often it gets rotated to a back-up systems) and would really have enjoyed having something like that. |
I could be wrong but I believe this is the older gentleman I was talking about mentioned in this case -
https://casetext.com/case/warren-v-greenfield
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I spoke to Rob on February 21. I ordered paint masks and Thiel logos (they stick on and hide one of the screws) for my Power Points I use as front height channels. I'm going to get the room painted (which is huge as a bunch of rooms connect) probably sometime in the next year or so and wanted to have them on hand. |
Yes the T2 is supposedly the sweet spot in the line. I had the DAC (bought it used as version 1 and sent it to EMM Labs to get upgraded to version 2) already. So for me it was an easy decision and I bought the U1 lightly used. Was already using the NAS with a small fanless PC with JRiver as well. So when I bought the U1 I just installed Minimserver on the NAS and have been using it ever since. |
The 3.7s for sure were not as bad a load as the 7.2s. I owned 2.3s before the 7.2s and now have 3.7s. I also have SCS2s (using them for side and rear surround but had them as mains in the bedroom system of my old house). When my friend worked at a local hifi shop many moons ago, I helped deliver most of their modes from the late 1990s for about 6 years. I currently drive my 3.7s with Class D (Modwright KWA 150SE before that and Bryston 14BSST before that and a smaller Bryston SST before that). The 7.2s were in a large 2 story room and would shut down on a regular basis from the load presented to the Bryston 14BSST (they made a 20 amp version but I didn't have a 20 amp circuit). |
Right now using my Modwright LS36.5DM preamp with my Mivera SE ICEPower amp (and have the EVS version with two mono modules on order). I use an EMM Labs DAC 2X and a Lumin U1 (reading files from my NAS) as a source. I was using cables I made from the stranded Neotech silver/gold alloy with Mundorf RCA but tried a Teo Audio GC Ultra between the DAC and preamp and that made a nice improvement. If the new amp works out (the AS1200 module supposedly sounds much better in balanced but when I got it was not aware and I do have an integrated AV system and probably going to ditch the HT Bypass and just swap cables for the 10-12 times/year I watch TV or a movie in the main system). Likely going to get another Teo audio cable too. |
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The power supply for the BP-26 is some distance away from the preamp. Where did you get the connecting cable?" The manual specifies what can be used - http://www.bryston.com/PDF/Manuals/300021[MPS2].pdf This site has raw wire ( https://www.showmecables.com/belden-9444-4-conductor-20-awg-unshielded-pvc-audio-control-cable-per-foot?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu_Hbtc645QIVEp-fCh1zbwpHEAkYASABEgKghPD_BwE) and also indicates they can do custom cables. |
I have 3.7s and in my old house I had 19 foot ceilings with about a 16x20 ft. room that opened into other spaces (there was a foyer, an opening on one side of the back of the room to the kitchen and a stairway that led to an upstairs hallway that had a half wall along much of it) and didn't have an issue. The current room is about 16x18 with a 10-11 ft. ceiling and the left side is open to a foyer and a dining room and the back is mostly open to a kitchen area and no horrible issues. However, that being said with both those situations, I do have sound treatments. Not enough to make it look like a studio (and I do that in all of my systems as the room tends to be overlooked by so many) but enough to mitigate the bad issues. There's a pic of the rack and the speakers here -
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8093#&gid=1&pid=1
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Don't have any side walls (or even a back wall - there's a small portion of a back wall where the fridge is behind it in the kitchen). To the right of the right speaker is basically a whole wall triple sliding glass door (covered by window treatment). I already noted the space is open on the left side (foyer by the front door and dining room and no walls separating them from the living room). It's an integrated AV system, so that also makes a difference on speakers placement and why the rack was custom built to my design the way it is.. The speakers image great where they are. I've had them back a bit more and forward a bit more as well and they are best where the current listening chair is via listening and measurement. The space behind the listening chair has several feet behind it and is open to the kitchen via a half wall. I have a sound treatment sitting on top of the half wall separating the kitchen. |
jafant - thanks so much for your kind comments (and thanks so much for your great contributions to this thread). I noticed I had a few other comments on my system page (which I added not that long ago - and just includes the main system, I have other systems including speakers from Selah Audio, B&W, Ohm and GR Research and electronics in those secondary systems from Hegel, Mivera, NuPrime, etc.) and I have added a pic that shows a bit more of the room where the main system resides. I've also added some comments about what electronics are in the main system. Don't post often as some threads are filled with comments not conducive to providing helpful information derived from actual experience (I do find some of it almost humorous and can't even imagine anyone even put any credence in someone who has no actual first hand exposure to something - this is a great thread where we have some wonderful expertise from various individuals - thank you all). |
Some components and speakers are also just more sensitive to changes. I used to make virtually all of my cables (I probably have some of them in back-up systems and I have made them for others - didn't set out to do it but after they heard it, I agreed to do it at cost of materials). Sometimes I'd make something and marvel at the difference it made in one system and then struggle to figure out why there was almost no difference in another. Much of course depends on the room as well (it is so often the most overlooked thing). I've had a one-third octave RTA for many years (and also now that computers have come so far I have Audio Tools on the Phone and iPads along with a calibrated mic as well as Windows 10 music servers in other systems with REW and a USB mic) and doing changes/movements in mine and other systems has helped me evaluate things better. Of course everyone has different tastes and priorities as well (and there's nothing wrong with that). |
The state of high end audio as far as local stores is really sad. Not only have the number of dealers declined, but to me it seems that the ones that are not all that great and are still in business stick out more. Many have also gone to cheaper rents in industrial parks with a policy of appointments vs. regular business hours. Some of those are in quarters which don't have the capacity for as many listening rooms (and many also do more custom audio and home theater installations vs. deal in strictly equipment) as what many are accustomed to. There seems to be more vendors that sell consumer direct and regional audio shows have increased to allow consumers to hear things they would otherwise not have an opportunity to do. Some of those venues make it a bit more difficult to get a good audition (unless one stays at the venue and arranges an after hours session). It's just the way it is. |
Not seen a Levinson 27.5 in recent times but can tell you I help deliver many moons ago Levinson amps with Thiels. Should have no trouble driving them. If one is in a large room and listens very loudly that is not to say that something that delivers more power can be more appropriate for them (but don't be fooled by the conservative power ratings. Old Levinson 33Hs (helped deliver a pair of those - came with a free hernia - 220 lbs. each shipped with the crate), could drive just about anything (at least what I've seen and they didn't have excessive power ratings vs. many other things - very conservative). With my old Thiel 7.2s (which are a harder load that the 3.7s), I did own Proceed amps (which were basically Levinson budget amps). and they drove them no problem. |
Figured that was the reason for you asking. In my old house, before I had 3.7s, I had Thiel 7.2s. The room was huge. It was about 16x20 with a 19 foot ceiling that opened into other spaces. Easily the equivalent of over 7,000 cubic feet. The 7.2s were rated at 86db (tested by one magazine I believe at 85.5) and the 3.7s at 90 (tested by one magazine at 90.7). At one point I was driving the 7.2s with a Bryston 4BST and it was more than once where the amp went into momentary (literally a second) clipping (I have an integrated AV system so used it for both movies and music). When I went to the Proceed HPA amp, it had plenty of juice to drive the 7,2s, which, are noted, were a much more difficult load than the 3.7s (subsequent to that I got a 15 amp version of a Bryston 14BSST to drive the 7.2s, which it could not and I ended up with 3.7s, which the 14BSST handled better as far as the impedance but not as well as a Modwright KWA150SE). It's not your place with the potential buyer, but, with the changes in ownership over time with Madrigal Labs/Levinson some of the older amplifiers may not be supported by the factory for repairs. I would think unless the person has a huge room and plays them insanely loud, it would not be a problem with the 3.7s. |
There are other other threads on a 7 vs. 7.2 - e.g.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/upgrade-thiel-7-s-to-7-2-s I have known people who had 7s and opted to upgrade to the 7.2s when the 7.2s were released. I've personally never heard the 7s, but I did buy my 7.2s when they were new and sold them when the 3.7s first came out. |
Also note (not sure of the date) that the initial 7.2s had a concrete baffles (the ones I previously owned did not). My understanding (could be wrong and it was a long time ago) is that there were some problems in shipping them to the Far East (cracking). I believe there was about a 15 pound difference in the weight of each speaker having the composite baffle vs. the concrete one (which was the one that weighed 15 pounds more). There's probably threads on the concrete vs. the composite one and people's impressions, although I'd imagine that would be a very hard comparison unless there were 2 sets of 7.2s in the room with the same system. For those looking at used ones, don't forget hifishark.com. I go there probably once a week or so (not that I need anything with all my systems but it doesn't hurt to look). |
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Thank You for reviving the old CS 7.2/Levinson thread. I would be interested in learning if any of those guys still own the 7.2 loudspeaker?" Been quite a while since I lived in the DC area and my friend who worked at the store and I did deliveries with. Most of that was the late 1990s through around 2005 (my friend was gone from the store a few years when I sold my 7.2s and got my 3.7s and since he helped me sell my 7.2s the owner let him deliver my 3.7s and took care of him). There's an old Washington Post article (I was not able to find it) from around 15+ years ago about one of the people I was talking about that deals with ultra high end 2-channel systems. His first name was Hugh (last name escapes me at the moment - was a retired Navy pilot - very nice guy) and he was the focus of the article. I think back then he had about $140k at retail into his 2-channel system. Besides being over his place (which I enjoyed), I'd see him at events at the local audio shop. There probably weren't too many of us back then who used to frequent that local shop who owned 7.2s. Back then I think the most expensive speaker I saw in someone's house were these - https://manofmany.com/tech/audio/dynaudios-evidence-loudspeakers-85000-well-spent Room wasn't a good match (way too small but I understand the customer moved a couple of years later into a bigger place) and he had Levinson 33Hs which I helped install. I always look at used stuff (not that I need anything), particularly local to me and probably one of these days, I'll end up picking up something speaker wise.
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He actually got the $85k list price speakers used for something like $27k with shipping (that was probably about 15+ years ago). The room was probably about just over 9 feet wide by about 17 feet with metal Boltz LP racks all over. We took out a pair of $12k list B&W retro looking speakers that sounded better in the room. Electronics included the Levinson 33H monoblocks ($20k list) and the Levinson reference preamp of the day ($16k list) and the he had an adjacent bigger room with a TV and a pair of Maggie 3.6s on a side wall (adjacent to the small room with the Dynaudio speakers), which I believe were powered by a De Havilland amp or integrated in the same room as the Dynaudio. When we left my friend said that he would be better off with 7.2s in that room (vs. the Dynaudio). Did other deliveries where the room was an afterthought. Like 2 story glass walls and a wall with a stone fireplace and Thiel 2.3s (which I owned before the 7.2s) and it sounded so bright it hurt my ears. That system was bought totally based on review ratings vs. the person listening carefully or obviously considering the room. |
Remember his name now - Hugh Campbell - lived in McLean VA. The article was in June 2001 (and entitled "Sound Crazy"). Could not find the original but did find some comments online about it here -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2001/06/19/mad-about-music/22cda9eb-b602-46f3-a00b-896c89eec7a6/
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Owned 2.3s and helped deliver a bunch of 2.4s. At one point, they changed the tweeter in the 2.3 (helped replace a blown one in one speaker and had to replace the other to match). From memory (long time), the new one might have been vented in the back of the driver. The 2.4s are clearly much smoother and not as harsh when driven a bit hard. |
An upgraded mic for an iPad is easy to use (and not expensive). I do it all the time with REW -
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-imm-6-calibrated-measurement-microphone-for-tablets-iphone-ipad-and-android--390-810 I also have a USB mic ( https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808) that I'll use with a PC. |
@jazzman7 "I'd be curious to know if you ever tried using your Hegel H190 to drive your Thiels ... and if so what you thought of the pairing.Hegel specs say their integrated amps are stable down to 2 ohms.So if so, all that is left is if it's a good sonic match." No have never used the Hegel on the 3.7s. The main system is in a larger room (16x18 with 10 foot ceilings and a tray ceiling on top of that and open into other spaces bigger than the 16x18). I was using a Modwright KWA150SE (along with a Modwright LS26.5DM preamp) to drive them and tried a Class D (Mivera), and was shocked that it bested the Modwright. I now use the EVS 1200 amp (same module as the Mivera except dual mono and with mods) to drive them and it's plenty of power and sounds great. I traded the Modwright amp straight up to a dealer for the Hegel and sold off my preamp, DAC and amp I was using in the secondary system. Am quite pleased with the Hegel. I'm using a small PC music server with JRiver since the USB DAC in the Hegel 190 is limited and it can't do DSD (I use JRiver to play it back at 176.4 along with a USB to coax converter). If I were to use a Hegel (integrated) in the main system, I'd go with one of two models above it (I'll probably at some point convert the DSD files and have them somewhere on the network so I can just play them back over ethernet (the Hegel can use UPnP) and do away with the PC - just have other things I'm working on for now and don't use the secondary systems all that often). |
I had a Bryston 3BST in the secondary system (along with an Odyssey Candela preamp and a Meitner MA-1 DAC) driving Ohm Microwalsh Talls (augmented by a Rel Strata III sub). I had a friend bug me about Class D in the summer of 2017. I had last seriously listened to them at the Capital Audiofest in 2015 and I thought they had gotten better but not quite there yet. I told him I would look again at RMAF in 2017 and that I'd probably get one as I had multiple systems and I was sure by this point I could at a minimum replace something like the Emotiva XPA-200 I had in one system. I ended up getting the Mivera SE amp. I broke it in using the secondary system and just put it in place of the Bryston 3BST. It smoked it right out of the box (was shocked by that much of a difference and surprised how much better the system sounded - always thought the speakers were more limited but was wrong). I ended up using that (the Mivera, where it bested the Modwright amp - even more shocking and I had a Bryston 14BSST before the Modwright) in the main system. I traded the Modwright amp for the Hegel (then sold off the amp, preamp and DAC I had in that secondary system) and then I got the EVS amp and moved the Mivera and sold off the Emotiva amp. I still use the Mivera in the main system for HT (my main system in an integrated AV system and it is a pain to get behind it so it is easier to move the Mivera which drives the 3.7s with ease). I wanted to get a higher end Hegel that had a less limited USB but just couldn't justify it for the secondary system. I'm sure Hegel would drive Thiels quite nicely. |
I used these MIT cables many moons ago -
https://www.highperformancestereo.com/cables/speaker-cables/mit-mh-750-music-hose-8-foot-pair-spade-lugs.html I think I had 2.3s back then. Actually had two pair (an 8 ft. and a 12ft) and used one of the long ones on a Thiel SCS2 center channel. I picked them up cheap as a guy painted his baseboard and they were covered in paint. I ended up cleaning them and selling them for about the same as I paid for them about a year and a half later as I made a pair of speaker cables from (dual runs of) Belden 83030 that clearly bested them. So I wasn't super impressed by them. They were OK for the cheap used price I got them for (I think the 8 ft. pair listed for $450 and the 12 footer for $600 and I think I paid $200 for them way back when and after I cleaned them and shipped them I got my $200 back). |
No - actually I have Zenwave audio for most of the power cords on the essential stuff like amp, preamp, DAC, Music Server in the main system. I have a Teo Audio balanced cable between the music server and the preamp and an NBS balanced cable between the preamp and amp. I have some WyWires power cords in secondary systems and most of the RCA cables are homemade from Neotech silver/gold wire. |
I use a Modwright LS36.5 DM tube preamp and an EVS 1200 Amp (discussed here -
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/life-with-ric-schultz-2200-highly-tweaked-evs-1200-class-d-icepower-d) with my 3.7s |
There is some reference to that issue here - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?page=87 Best bet is to look for someone local or directions like - https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-fix-cracks-in-concrete/ I owned Thiel 7.2s many moons ago but mine had the mineral composite baffle. Don't know if it true or not but a couple of people told me there were a couple of reasons for the switch. One was about 15 pounds of weight difference per speaker and the other was problems when speakers were shipped overseas (e.g. Asia) |
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thieliste - what's the price tag?Anybody tried the new PS Audio 1200 watt monos? They state 2ohms as suitable for musical transients, so I donno." Not using the PS Audio 1200W monos. It uses the IcePower AS1200 modules with their own custom (12AU7) tube input buffer. I have an EVS 1200 which has two of the same mono input modules with a custom mods and buffer designed by Ric Schultz. No problems driving my Thiel 3.7s to insanely loud levels and they are between two and three ohms over much of the band (there were a couple of magazine tests that measured the minium impedance of 2.4 and 2.3 ohms). Before that, I had an unmodded (Mivera Audio) AS1200 stereo amp which easily drive the 3.7s better in all respects to a well know Class A/B amp (and I had another well know Class A/B amp before that). Those are no my opinions alone, as I had others over who heard the prior amps. The module spec sheet says 2.7s ohms minimum, but that is there for people in large concert venues piggybacking speakers, and, while I'm sure they have a limit (I'd be hesitant to try them with old Infinity Kappas which I believe went down to something like a minimum of 1.3 ohms). I'd imagine the PS Audio amps are really nice. I don't really have the space for monoblocks (have an integrated A/V system) so it is really not something on my wishlist but I'm sure they sound great. |
Many moons ago, when a friend worked at high end shop, I helped deliver and set-up various things over a 6 year period. Like the 1.7s. I wouldn't mind finding a used pair at some point (I look from time to time. I have a couple of secondary systems in small/average sized rooms they would work very well in. They were rated at 4 ohms (3 minimum and 87db) like my MCS1 I use as a center channel and like the two pair of SCS2s I have as side and back surrounds. I use s receiver to drive the center and surrounds and it doesn't have an issue. They are certainly not as hard to drive as 3.7s or my old 7.2s (which were really tough). I would, however, get a decent amp if I got them as main channels. |