@tomthiel, Your entitled your opinion and yours will deservedly carry more weight than mine. I’m not so sure that the 3.6’s are more accurate, perhaps not even more mature. But, while the 3.6’s are more dynamic, play louder and are more suave from the midrange up, the 3.5’s go deeper, have better time and phase coherence, and get more from less costly amplification. You’ve confirmed what I always suspected: that the 3.6’s were rushed to meet cyclical market demands. I was and remain disappointed. I would have guessed the 3.5’s would have been followed with a 4 way sealed box with time compensated bi-wiring keeping the eq out of the upper range. I can understand why some might prefer the 3.6’s, but I’ll go with 3.5’s every time. I think all things considered the 3.5’s were Thiel’s best product. The port made sense for the CS2’s down, but I think it was a mistake that kept being made (except for CS5’s whose amp requirements keep it from being the best Thiel) with the 3.6’s on.
YYMMV. To each his own. |
Unsound, I mostly agree with your preference for the 3.5 but can't say that it is better then the 3.7.
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^That’s a different comparison. A sealed box 3.7 would be a triumph! |
Hello all!
Just wanted to say that there is a good looking pair of 3.5’s for sale over at US Audio Mart. Speakers, the Electronic Bass module, spikes & original copy of 3.5 instruction/data brochure...very complete offering. Speakers are in Chicago & are listed for $699. Nice price for everything!
Know there have been a few posters & lurkers on this thread looking for 3.5’s & these look like they deserve to go to a good home.
Hope you & yours are all doing well & staying safe...Happy Thanksgiving!
Arvin |
Thanks again guys, learning a lot here. The last pair of Thiel I listened to was indeed the 3.6 in a dealer show room twenty some years ago. It sounded very good but now I can't remember what amp was used. At that era, I think it must had to be some high power amp like Audio Research, Krell, Mark Levinson, Conrad Johnson or maybe Aragon, Bryston, Spectral etc. Since then, I've not been following hi fi development. It seems like now we have a lot more new manufactures and a more focus on multi-channels and digital products. What would be a good pre/power amp (2-3k budget, used equipment ok) to match the 3.6 in a two channel set up mainly for LP and some cd listening of classical, jazz and vocal. |
thoft
Thiel loudspeakers are pretty forgiving w/ cabling. Use caution with silver-based/impregnated cabling though. Experiment and have fun!
Happy Listening! |
hifi28
Welcome! Good to see your posts. Take your time and read through this thread for more information on the 3.6 speaker. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening! |
thoft
I have heard Arcam gear with Analysis Plus (not sure about the models) and Nordost Blue Heaven cabling only. I really like their FMJ cd players.
Happy Listening! |
@jafant i have a line on a pair of fpb-350mc monos within an hour of me. Hopefully I can work something out with the guy. Also my luxman just made it into the states and went through (luckily) a fast approval process in us customs. I’m excited to see this thing on my rack. |
thoft
Excellent! Those FPB 350 MC are incredible. At least ask the seller for a demo just to hear the presentation and sound. Luxman is making a fierce comeback here in the U.S. Keep me posted and have fun!
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
have you upgraded the stock fuse(s) in your AX-5/20 ?
Happy Listening! |
Question regarding the CS5i speakers, which were mentioned here recently: wouldn't the sheer age of the speakers preclude anyone's interest in owning them now? It's going on 40 years, and that's plenty of time for adhesives, polymers and composites of one sort or another to substantially degrade. Comments welcome.
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Unsound - thanks for your response. Keep it coming. First, please let me explain my choice of words. By ’more accurate’ I mean adhering to a flat frequency and phase response curve. By ’more mature’ I mean embodying next-level technologies such as more sophisticated driver motors and diaphragms. I assume that I have considerably less actual experience with these models than you do, and that my opinion is therefore of limited scope and depth. In my present work, each model sample that I get, I measure and photograph and document and audition. For the 3.6 that means I have spent about one day with them. Period. Their introduction came near the end of my time at Thiel Audio and, frankly, I never found a subsequent opportunity to hear them. I concur with your disappointment - my opinion based not on performance (of which I am quite naive), but on philosophy. I don’t think ’rushed to market’ quite captures their introduction because Jim was always technically thorough in his development process. (often to the consternation of marketing director Kathy Gornik.) I think ’compromised’ might better capture it for me. My (ineffective) resistance of reflex bass revolved around trueness to our central principle of phase coherence. Jim and I shared the opinion that the bass establishes the musical foundation on which all else builds and that reflex bass is a compromise (permissible for budget.) But the model 3 was all about performance. Kathy felt that such details must be subservient to the demands of the marketplace (as you posit.)
Let’s shift gears to your ghost of a 4-way CS4 - exactly right in my view. Here’s what happened. It’s hard to understate the role that market demand places on a small growth company. Capitalization plays a big role also. Thiel was always undercapitalized - we pulled everything out of our collective hats, barely paid ourselves, rarely carried any debt and sunk our thin margins into self-bootstrapped growth. Enter the gravy years of the mid 80s. Affluence abounded. Many companies introduced their mega-priced statement products. Thiel was comparatively plodding along its incremental learning/growth curve. It may not be obvious, but Thiel succeeded better in foreign markets than here at home; we competed better in export markets at 2-3 times US retail prices. We were a big hit in Japan which at the time defined and led the pan Asian market. Japan demanded a Statement Thiel product. Jim floated some concept sketches with our Japanese distributor. Jim wanted to make your CS4. It made sense from everybody’s vantage point (from mine in Spades), except our Japanese distributor, who wanted what became the CS5. This next part is almost embarrassing, but what’s a little embarrassment among friends. Let’s talk culture. Our success in Japan was unusual, practically unprecedented, due in great part to our distributor. Kathy was adept at choosing optimal allies. Japan is a power-based culture and the contenders were brokering power arrangements where we held the weaker hand. A new distributor emerged with a Japanese-American principal, who understood both cultures and could navigate many pitfalls. He helped us navigate the weirdness of the number ’4’ in the orient. It symbolizes cosmic unluckiness, curse, death - bad suss. A CS4 would fail regardless of its merit. Kathy deferred to his guidance, but Jim would not put a CS5 moniker on a CS4 chassis. So he engineered the CS5, which in practical terms was beyond our company’s 1988 capacity to develop and produce. Tons of internal stress. The CS5 needed a longer incubation and internal design and engineering resources than the market demands allowed. It consumed the oxygen in our ecosystem which set the stage for scaling back the vision for the 3.6.
Now, that’s a lot of words for an internet forum. But you guys are my audience for these vanishing quirks of history.
The Thiel story contains lots of such workings behind the curtain, as do most human enterprises. It may interest you that the abandonment of the CS4 that you cite stands as a major element of my departure from the company I had co-founded and dedicated two decades to developing. In the early 90s, Thiel, like everyone else, faced an existential decision of how to survive in a market where multi-channel / home-theater was taking over. Thiel took that route. Imagine an alternative reality with a CS4 and a CS3.6 with a bass more true to its model 3 beginnings. Just thinking.
Cheers.
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new mid driver burn in? I recently received my pair of scan-speak 10F "13M replacement" from Madisound for my beloved 3.5s
I've taken a bunch of pink noise and vocal sample recordings at different distances with a decent condenser mic for future comparison. Now it's time to install and I'm wondering - should I run them free-air with a burn in program or playlist before installing? Should I install and run a burn in - or just put them in, screw it and listen to music??
There are more pressing questions to ponder I know - but your collective wisdom appreciated.
@tomthiel -Thanks you so much for 'telling tales out of school' and letting us behind the scenes at the company who's products we love and admire. |
I personally just threw it in and turned on the music |
Yea - you get what you get, and it gets better. Burn-in is relevant to reviewers to assess what a real listener will live with over time. I would love to hear if you find any measurable differences between fresh and burned in.
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@jafant No, I haven’t played with the fuses. Until the CS2.4, my tweaks were on the low budget end (mini-sandbox for my TT, cables on wood blocks, and the Ayre IBE disc). With the FST-sourced crossovers, it seemed very likely that an upgrade in parts quality would yield sonic benefits. Indeed, that is what I heard. The Ayre is such a great piece, I doubt I’ll ever afford anything better. Please let me know if you play with ultra fuses. |
Thoft, are you importing your luxman yourself? A while back I did some research and noticed a significant price savings if you can live with the voltage adjustment and warranty. Which model did you order? |
Unsound, or the 3.5 with the coax from the 3.7 and a pair of sealed sub woofers.
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If Jim was still alive we would have had CS 7.3s, if i recall it was in his plans.
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I was told that its coax would have had smaller drivers than the 3.7, suitable for crossing to smaller diameter lower midranges such as in the model 7; and would have trickled down to his 2.7 instead of the 3.7 coax.
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@tomthiel I recall you also wrote the 7.3 coax would have had a mechanical crossover. Carbon diaphragms, sealed bass and top shelf passive parts would have made for an absolute world beater. |
Beetle - I'm not sure how much of that is correct - coming from different sources over time. I said mechanical crossover, but was enlightened to the contrary. Also the carbon diaphragm idea was countered by machined aluminum / beryllium alloy. And the sealed bass might have been my speculation based on my knowledge of Jim's fundamental bias. I never spoke with him about it, and my input comes from three sources with their own reads on the prospects. Even though his illness was kept secret from all of us, he knew he was dying; so the 7.3 may have been mostly speculative. But it seems it was what he was working on at the end.
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Sorry for the confusing post. Other than the mechanical crossover, the rest of my post was intended as fantasy. And now you clarified that the crossover bit is also imagination.
Happy Thanksgiving |
Sorry I missed your humor. Let's call it a CS4.
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Tom
Have you ever considered writing a book about
Jim and the Thiel speaker company ?
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I owned a pair of CS7's several years ago. The dynamic "slam" I got from them in some pieces of music was absolutely amazing. An upgrade from Thiel at the time was supposed to improve the high end but it never happened, IMHO. I sold them because they sounded too bright for me, even with good tube amps. |
Pulling the mids and I thought the phase would be obvious. It's not.
There is one wire with kind of subtle red or rust coloring. The other white. No + - on the driver. I aim guessing the colored wire is positive but wanted to check with those who know.
Hope you all had great Thanksgivings. |
bonedog - in speakers white is plus. The other may be tan, which is minus. I recommend you test with a battery: D cell or 6v lantern. Momentary contact only. Plus makes the driver move forward. You can see the woofer and feel the tweeter.
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Rob - yes I have and yes I would like to. I believe Thiel Audio represents a brief place in time when small-scale upstart enterprises were possible and appreciated. I have been collecting material and hope someday to have the time to pursue it. I've been forthcoming here, but that just scratches the surface. It was a very wild ride.
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Mdiaz - you are not alone. "Brightness" seems to be Thiel’s Achilles Heel. And saying it isn’t so can bring ire from non-believers. Critical consensus places Thiel as quite flat in response, without the common high-frequency droop, and Jim was adamant to not fudge the response to make them easier to take. But there is real stuff going on there, and that real stuff is central to my present work with rehabilitating classic Thiel designs.
I have developed a long list of upgrades that serve to tame that perceived brightness, and that work will see the light of day someday. But I must say that my first and largest recommendation is to work on your room. People say it, they say it here, and elsewhere, but it is hard to believe how big a deal it is. The reflections and chaos are often full-range, but the most obvious and irritating band is in the lower treble brightness range. About a year ago I spent a couple of weeks chasing weirdness in my playback studio, and when the dust settled the sound was so much more articulate, relaxed and alluring that I barely believed I was listening to the same system. This mitigation work is tedious and lacks the glamor of buying new equipment, but man is it cost-effective and satisfying.
But, even if your room is nearly perfect and you’ve chosen mellow gear, and you avoid over or poorly produced recordings, Thiel may still be too close to bright and forward for your tastes. I am certain that I am identifying causes and crafting solutions. I’ve mentioned some of them in this thread over the past couple of years. There are more. For example, right now I am working with wire. Thiel used an aerospace-grade top notch wire, and that was as far as we took it. Jim would settle an issue to his satisfaction considering hardcore science with listening verification, and then put that inquiry behind him. There is only so much bandwidth available if a one man design house wants to keep breaking new ground. But, I know that he did not consider the transmission line propagation anomalies in the wire runs, nor some of the subtleties of EMF interactions. Indeed those models and science were not very accessible then, and even today remain obscure and fringey. But they are real and sonically consequential, even if not thoroughly understood or modeled. A new wiring harness will be quite different than stock Thiel 18/2 solid in teflon. And there is always more. And as I've mentioned before, I believe the ear-brain is qualitatively more critical of such problems when presented with a phase coherent signal which it accepts and scrutinizes as 'real music'. A book could be written about that.
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Thank You Tom. I'll do a battery check just in case. |
My luxman just came in and had made the setup so much more musical, cleaner too! Midrange and high end is much more smoother. Bass is much more hearty and full. |
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Tomthiel,
All due respect, Thiels aren't bright at all. In fact, properly amplified, Thiels are a little on the dark side of neutral. I have 7.2's and 3.6's, and whenever people come over expecting to hear bright, harsh sound they are floored. And I tell them all the time, forget what you've ever heard about Thiel, 90% of the battle is getting the amplification right. Everything after that is season to taste. Thiels need pure muscle. Some amps have it and you just need to find one that sounds the way you want.
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Not sure I would completely agree with the dark side of sounding neutral. But I will agree proper gear will award with superbly clear neutral sound. |
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bonedog -
I feel your pain, waiting for that once (maybe) in a lifetime combination of lust and price. But if you run across a used ST85, don't turn up your nose. With luck you may find one around $1k. After all, you can ride the bus when the car breaks down, can't you?
:-) :-O
Harry |
Hi everyone.
I am looking to bring my 2.3s up to date with any updated crossovers, driver surrounds etc. Where is this Coherent Source? Is it a shop that one can drop their speakers off to be upgraded? I would love to bring these speakers that I have owned for 20 yrs to a new level of performance. Thanks for any info you can help me with.
Bruce
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brskie
Welcome! CSS is operated by Mr. Rob Gillum in Lexington, KY.
Phone: 859.554.9790 Keep us posted on the upgrade path for your CS 2.3 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening! |
3090
Welcome! Good to see you here. Tell us more about your musical taste and system around those 3.6 and 7.2 speakers.
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
Thank You for the CS4/CS5 Thiel Audio history lesson.
I hope that you are well this Holiday season.
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
Thank You for the follow up to my Fuse query. I concur, the stock fuse is plenty good enough for my ears. Across the other Audio forums, there is not much information about fuse exchanges in AYRE gear.
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
I enjoyed the recent review on the AX-5 Twenty via HiFi News & Record Review as well. Pretty remarkable that they chose 2020 to review/test this Integrated amp.
Happy Listening! |
A friend has revealed he has a pair of very rough thiel cs 3.6. Tweeters and a midrange driver is out iirc. What are the services available regarding the drivers on the 3.6? |
Tomthiel
Hi Tom, happy to meet you on the forum. Do you have any solutions worked out for upgrading the CS 2.3? I have read in the past that something was done to improve the Xovers, but that was years ago and I don't remember what it was. Any info would be great. With my new electronics I feel like I have a new speaker. I am finally realizing how much this little 2.3 has to offer after 20 yrs.
Thanks,
Bruce |
Brskie - good to meet you. Your point person is Rob Gillum at CoherentSource Service who worked at Thiel from 1988 through the present. It seems to me that there was a coax driver upgrade that people considered substantial and a couple of XO mods to accommodate it. Rob would know.
Beyond that, I am not working on the 2.3, but we could apply the general solutions we've found which include Mills MRA-12 resistors and ClarityCap CSA caps, especially in the coax feed position. Others here have done it and we recommend it for a DIY project.
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Brskie - it would be good information for all of us to tell us what your previous system was, what you changed to, and what specifically you hear. Just a request to help calibrate us on our journey. Thanks.
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For those of you with electrolytics in your Thiel crossover (is that all of you except me?), you might watch this new “pints with Ayre” episode: https://youtu.be/gr9u6-ifUXkAround the 22 minute mark, their engineer describes EL lifespan as affected by heat, current, and age. And, apparently, bad things can happen to ELs if stored in your basement for years. |
