Thiel Owners

Waveguides are attached with a 3M plastic adhesive and usually come off readily. I can't recommend any tricks. The rubber goo surround fix is good. The original goo was silicone.

dspr - Rob at Coherent Source Service could check your serial numbers for whether yours were upgraded to the "i" status. The difference was upgraded woofers and possibly an XO tweak to compensate.

I communicated with Rob and shared pics. He confirmed that my Thiel's are CS5i's.

Makes them that much harder to give them up.

Guess I will try moving them around again and start by placing them a bit closer together although I recall I tried that and did not like it.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

Dspr - CS5s are a tough nut to crack. Their impedance drops to 2.5 ohms at 150Hz and keeps dropping to 1.5Hz by 20Hz, and lower at 10Hz. It devastates most amps. I don't remember for sure whether the 'improved' woofers raised that impedance a little. The CS5(i) did not prosper in the market because so few amps could drive it well. As you know, Jim used Krell, ending up with the FPB-600 which could drive a tank.

thielrules.  Thanks for sharing your experience removing the waveguides. 

And he used the Goertz flat wire, which has the lowest characteristic impedance, which is a requirement for very low impedance speaker loads.

I would imagine that the CS5i’s woofers without the added pads on the original CS5’s would help in that regard. I thought the “i” version was a nice improvement.

unsound - the rubber pads were to add mass to lower the resonance frequency. Turned out that the center plugs did a better job of that. There were also some motor improvements. That's when Jim was getting his legs with FEA for motor geometry and all that.

Happy Friday! All

tomthiel

I would like to see you revive your SCD-1 player. It is quite nice to have a dedicated CD and SACD player.  Hope that you are well and looking forward to the fast-approaching holiday season.

Happy Listening!

@jafant  Are you considering any streaming device for Qobuz or Tidal in the future or are you going to stick to your Accuphase CD player ?

jafant - I bought the SCD-1 because it is an iconic product, it had been Thiel Audio's, and it had been upgraded. The few discs I heard on it were wonderous. I'll keep it until I get PS Audio's new PerfectWave player early 2021 and ascertain it does everything I need. The Sony machine is devoid of soft source inputs, which are becoming commonplace these days.

@tomthiel, while I truly appreciate many of PS Audio's approaches to their DACs, like the use of updateable FPGA's and I2S connections, some of there digital products measurements can give cause to pause.: 
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-perfe...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-measurements

Many years ago I'd heard several Thiel's (2's and 3.6) at CES and local dealers, I was very impressed with their sound but they all were driven but high-end high power amps. At this time I have a pair of Mark Levinson ML-11 and ML-12 power/pre amp with a pair of bookshelf speaker and a pair of subwoofers with a 200W amp. They sound good together but if I get a pair of Thiel would the ML-11 (50w into 8 ohms and 100w into 4 ohms) be enough? What about for a pair Vandersteen 2ce annually signature comparing to the Thiel? 

@hifi28, For a small room, yes for:
Thiel CS 1
Thiel CS 1.2
Thiel CS 2
Thiel CS 3
Thiel CS 3.5
Vandersteen 2ce

My room is 12x19 would a 3.6 work?

CS 3.6’s present a tough load on amplifiers. You would need to look at amplifiers spec’d to a minimum of 400 Watts into 2 Ohms.

Unsound - thank you very much for your links to PS reviews. I will certainly wait until I read reviews on their upcoming PerfectWave SACD player.

Furthermore, I have now read John Atkinson's technical review in AudioScience of the Stellar GainCell DAC/Pre that I own. Disappointing, to say the least. Thanks again.

@tomthiel, at the risk of appearing petty, it think the AudioScience review you’re referring to was by the author who goes by "amirm" not John Atkinson of Stereophile.

OK, not petty. I'll look into it.

@hifi28 In my even smaller room I got the CS3.7 to work very good and this was with a nightmarish COAX situation (slowly resolving). My room is acoustically treated. I know almost all the posts on A’gon say the CS3.7 requires a fairly large room, I think there are ways around that. I have photos on my virtual system.

Yesterday, I thought I would see how loud I could crank the CS3.7 for 1 complete song (without lowering the volume). I only got to 85 dB on my iPhone meter. In a larger room I know for sure I would have had it much louder, based on past experiences with other speakers in bigger rooms. Makes me wonder if I should be happy with a single AHB2 (something like 292@2 Ohms) . I have not tested out if more wattage is helpful in low volume scenarios. That is last on my ToDo list.

As an update on my journey.

1) Today I fixed the broken COAX screw thread on the frame using the RECOIL kit recommended by Rob Gillum. Great stuff.

2) I bought 2 black COAXs from Rob yesterday. They may arrive before Thanksgiving but I will use the time to do #3.

3) I just bought some water based stain to put on the speaker. Now that the COAX are removed it was easy to carry the speaker to the garage to sand it down and then add 3 coats of the stuff I just bought.

One of the COAX’s was first out-of-phase. I fixed that and it sounded much better. Then today after testing the circuits with an Ohm meter I am almost 100% certain that the crossover wire for the midrange was connected to the tweeter and crossover wire for the tweeter was connected to the midrange. I have not confirmed with Rob Gillum yet. The second situation is supposed to be very very bad. I am assuming the tweeter on that COAX is damaged. The measurements did show that there was a problem on the high frequencies. This was not the fault of Thiel it was a DIY issue.

Getting close.

@hifi28

My 3.6s are in a room 24'x13' and with proper acoustic treatments, they work to perfection. You should be able to accomplish similar results.

See virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163

thieliste

I am fortunate to own a reference CD player (Accuphase) and reference universal player (AYRE). No streaming in my future anytime soon.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

I am looking forward in your comparison of the Sony ES and PS Audio PerfectWave spinners.  Have fun!

Happy Listening!

@jafant  Why do you need two cd players for ?

thieliste

I have been chasing the Accuphase for 10 years now. Seller finally decided to sell. The Ayre mates superbly with my Integrated amp.
Once I heard the combo, I was enlightened.

Happy Listening!

All

thieliste and Tom brings up excellent points- why does one need (2) Players? In Tom's case, the older Philips is still viable now.
The newer PS Audio, will serve well for SACD playback and other modern duties. There is something to be said about these older, reference, Cd players. All do compact disc playback very well.

Happy Listening!

Does anyone have any info on the woodwork on the CS3.7? Is it solid wood or is there a veneer on it? I will talk with Rob Gillum next week or the week after Thanksgiving. In the meantime does anyone have any info on the wood panels. I would be interested to hear some feedback before I get too deep in the restoration work I am doing.

I am in the process of refinishing the wood. Rob told me to use 220-320 grit sandpaper to clean up the existing lacquer. I forgot to ask him about the composition of the wood.

Part II - This internet thing is so useful. 
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/thiel_audio_carries_on.htm

I was looking at Hegel H590, would be interesting to try this one out with 3.7s.It also has a buildt in DAC for people who want a very simple rig.

I didn’t realize the 3.7s  had that many parts made in China. Thanks for posting the link yyz

@yyzsantabarbara, the previous Thiel’s were laminates. I suspect the same holds true for the 3.7’s. Though they came after Tom Thiel’s departure, I doubt you’ll find anyone with more insight regarding Thiel’s cabinetry. He’s a master at such things.

yyzsantabarbara 

As unsound pointed out previous Thiels were laminate ,
my 2.7's are laminate but to assure yourself remove the coaxial speaker and look at the inside of the cabinet .
At the same time take the passive readiator out and if you have a multi-meter check the continuity of the wires to check for cross termination ,
something the repair technician shoud have done and discovered
during the repair ( I marked my tweeter wires with painters tape when I rewired to avoid the mistake you are describing ) .

And I would like to thank you for opening my eyes with your discovery of your speakers sounding the best you've ever heard at 6 feet apart ,
I know you have a small room but it got me thinking .

There is always something to learn by following this forum's conversations .

Rob
 

A couple of thoughts regarding moving speakers closer together. One should be aware that as one moves the speakers closer together that you would also be moving the speakers closer to the listener. As such, it could affect driver integration. In order to preserve the time coherence that Jim Thiel worked so hard to achieve, a minimum of 8’ and preferably 10’ distance from speaker to listener needs to be maintained.
Also, as I previously touched upon, yyzsantabarbara is considering using DSP RC. In which case the opposite closer to wall placement could be advantageous. In fact. when using DSP RC not placing them directly besides the walls could trade one set of problems for another. Ideally speakers such as Thiel’s own powerpoints would be used with DSP RC.
Without DSP RC keeping the typical Thiel speakers well away from immediate reflections is most advantageous.

I was also surprised at the amount of content from China on the CS3.7. I thought they built the COAX in house but Rob mentioned something about getting shipment of drivers and why they have the black coated new ones. I did not ask more questions on that but that article makes it clear. As does the fact that it is laminate with a veneer.

I am also looking at an R2R DAC for the Thiel system and I have 2 Chinese made DACs at the top of the list. So I have no issue with audio gear from China. I want to get my bedroom headphone system rebuilt so I can use my Benchmark DAC3B or the second DAC for that.

The previous CS3.7 repairs were not done by a repair person. It was done by the previous (or first) owner. The dealer seems to have also opened up the COAX driver screws to have a look inside and had over torqued the screws to break the threads (just fixed by me).

At the moment I have the COAX drivers off and the woofers and other parts covered nicely for sanding, staining, or if I get brave, painting. As I mentioned before it is so much easier to carry the speaker with the COAX removed.

The cherry color I have is nice but I always wanted something a little more distinctive for the office. When I was considering the Paradigm Persona 3F I looked at the customer color configurator and came up with a few color combos that I liked. I use the grill at all times (my 4 year old has never seen the drivers).

https://design.paradigm.com/en/persona/customize
Carbon Black Gloss (saw this in person)
Burnt Orange (I loved the KEF Blade in orange)

My new neighbor has a beautiful matte brown colored Mercedes. I was think of painting the cherry to a matte black to perfectly match the top aluminum shell which has been recently spray painted by me. I think it may look good with the black grill on. Just thinking out loud at the moment.

@yyzsantabarbara,FWIW, I typically don’t care for black finished speakers, but for the very reasons you’ve suggested, I think the black finish could help disguise the harlequin effect the often 3.7’s present to my eyes.

@yyzsantabarbara  I'm also going to get a R2R DAC and the one on my shortlist for my Thiel rig is the Aqua Formula xHD v2.Check out Totaldac they make very analogue sounding R2R Dacs too.

@thieliste I know about those 2 DACs. I am looking at a bit lower cost, so the Halo Spring Level 3 and the Denafrips Terminator +.  If I were to spend over $10K (I won't for a DAC) I think it would be the non-R2R Mola Mola Tambaqui. I have spent $1580 on a new Benchmark DAC3B and I have no complaints other than needing a second DAC in the future.

I was also waiting on the new Luxman chip based DAC that is in their uber SACD player. The specs are amazing and the sound is supposed to be very analog. My main thing nowadays with electronics is that they have to be close to as quiet as my Benchmark HPA4 preamp. For me that makes all the difference in the world because I can hear the silence.

@unsound  That harlequin effect is beyond my brain power. I looked it up online but could not find anything about it. In University, I took a class on some subject that discussed  the following book,

https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Display-Quantitative-Information/dp/0961392142/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&...

There were some very interesting visualization issues described in that book. I still have that book and tried to look up the harlequin effect, no luck.

Regarding driver wiring: there is a simple trick if you have a multimeter. Get access to the driver terminals, feed a signal to the speaker. Measure the AC voltages at the terminals. The woofer should be the highest, midrange much less and tweeter less than that. If a tweeter shows higher voltage than the mid, it is mis-wired from the crossover. Get Rob’s help to straighten it out.

Regarding cabinet construction. Thiel speaker walls have always been multi-laminates. Solid woods are less than desirable due to variable, under-damped and unpredictable resonance modes. The outer layer is a face veneer, matched by an interior backing veneer, each about 0.020" thick (5 pieces of paper). The 3.7 and 2.7 share their substrate panel which is an engineered sandwich of birch and other veneers glued into the curved shape under heat and pressure. In a historical context, that sandwich was envisioned from the beginning; it just took time to develop into a real product.

In the 03 development in 1978, we landed on Baltic Birch plywood as the substrate. (In fact we used FinPly, a higher quality alternative.) That BB/FP is twice as stiff as Particle Board and 3x as stiff as MDF. But it is under-damped and unpredictable in its resonance modes. Over the years, I messed with making our own build-ups, including bending the panels, which solves most of the inherent panel movement. But, for a small company making moderately priced products, those technologies were beyond our reach. The CS2, 3 and 3.5 used 1-1/8" industrial particle board plus face and back veneers for an extremely rigid and well damped panel. When we developed CNC capacity in the late 80s, we converted to MDF because we could pack engineered shelf braces into the construction. Check out the cutaway in the Stereophile review of the CS2.2, which was our first product designed for CNC manufacture. Nonetheless those well-braced MDF cabinets exhibit some resonances, and quieter is better. For the 3.7, Thiel found a subcontractor in Atlanta to make the unfaced custom curved panels. Thiel added the face/back veneers in-house with a custom curved mold press. That same panel is trimmed for the 2.7. The precision machining, including landings for the internal braces, were done on Thiel’s custom CNC.

Regarding drivers - Thiel designed its own drivers beginning in the early 80s for the CS3 introduced in 1983, as co-developments with Vifa of Denmark. Our deal was that Jim would design what Vifa could manufacture and offer to the larger market to amortize their development and tooling costs. That was unique in the industry and many Thiel design innovations worked their way into generic Scandinavian offerings. When our requirements eclipsed those of the broader market, we had to create our own driver-making capability, not because we wanted to, but because that was the only way we could get what Jim wanted. The CS5 (1989) drivers were (modified) off the shelf, except for our exclusive UltraTweeter. The following CS2.2 and CS3.6 were completely Thiel-designed x Vifa-made for us exclusively. All further products’ drivers were built in-house. By the time the 3.7 was designed in the mid 00s, Jim’s illness had progressed, and ways were developed for outsourcing most critical parts. Thiel, along with Vifa, ScanSpeak and others, co-developed FST as a high-quality Chinese driver source. Things change, and FST became the only feasible way to make those custom flat diaphragms. Many of the high-end Scandinavian drivers are coming from FST and other Chinese suppliers. Most of Thiel’s products since the mid 90s have early drivers built in-house and later drivers sourced from FST. In most cases they are equivalent, but in some cases, like the PowerDriver in the PowerPoint, etc. the tweeter module can no longer be replaced separately. Thiel could pull off that stunt in-house, but FST insisted it couldn’t be done. And you can’t make a supplier do what can’t be done.

unsound
yyzsantabarbara got me thinking,
Tom wrote
" In a 15' wide space, I would rather have 6' between speakers with 4.5' to side walls, than to have 8' between and only 3.5 aside . "
that got me trying .

Since owning these speakers I've been stubborn about positioning them 
from  8ft to 8ft 8in  apart , and from 8ft to 8ft 9in from my ears .
The room is 13ft 1in wide and listening length is 10ft 9in ,
so speaker movement is limited .
I've also tried ever degree of toe-in .

I thought about what makes the 10ft distance to the listeners ears
and 8ft apart as the ideal triangle and why didn't the 8ft to the listener and 8ft apart ( withor without toe-in ) did'nt make me shout WOW . 
The 8ft equilateral triangle gives one a 60 deg angle listener to speaker ,
the isosceles traingle with the speakers 10ft from listener is 47deg .
For the first time I moved the speakers closer than 8ft ,
I now have 39in to the outside wall and 33in to the front wall
with a listening distance of 96in , the center to center is now 82in .
The listening angle is 50.5 deg and the sound is fantastic !
2 gains , less reflection distortion and much wider sound stage .
I've tested the reflection gain by taking accoustic panels and temporarly placing them in the approx location , small gain but enough that I'll still buy 2 more panels to hang .

I believe the greatest gain was the listening angle .
With the speakers centers at 8ft and listening angle at 60 deg
I didn't have much space left for soundsatge outside the speakers 
but with the speaker centers at 6ft 10in and listening angle of 50 deg
I feel that this is as close to the listening experience that one would have 
if you could be sitting at the ideal postion of 10ft from the speakers that are 8ft apart and you had over 4 ft to the outside walls .

It's been said before and I'll say it again ,
Thank You Tom for your insight , knowledge and experience .
Rob












   

@yyzsantabarbara, I think you read too much into my previous post, I merely meant that with their contrasting color quadrants that they looked like a harlequin. 

@tomthiel I have been in contact with Rob and I have already done the multimeter test. I think the wiring was revered both on the wires coming out of the crossover and also the connection to both midrange and tweeter terminals. A real mess up. I have not confirmed the wires coming out of the crossover yet with Rob but based on the Ohm numbers recorded and what Rob told me to expect, it looks like it was wired in the wrong manner. So I believe my COAX is damaged. I just bought 2 new black COAXs from Rob last week and will have this issue put to bed. What a nightmare.

@unsound Yes, I over thought it. I must also say I am not the biggest fan of that contrast either. I am likely going to do a solid matte paint job in the upcoming week.  

tomthiel

Thank You for another Thiel Audio history lesson. As above, the Black satin finish looks very nice. A Black matte finish would also look very nice.

Happy Listening!

I would imagine that Jafant’s suggested satin black might be particularly handsome.

I like the satin black finish as well. My satin black Thiel sub is beautiful.

In terms of room size/speaker positions, I’ve played around with my 3.7s for quite some time and have settled on the following in my 15x20 room:

Speakers are placed along the long wall 32” out in front (measured from the rear of the speaker), 8.5’ between (from tweeter to tweeter) and approximately 5.75’ from each side wall. My listening position is 9’ away with a little over 2’ of space behind me. I have found this to be the optimal positioning for my room.

In terms of R2R Dacs, I recently updated to an MSB Analog DAC. Significant improvement from my Ayre QB-9.

I just found some photos of a Satin Black CS3.7 and it does look real sharp.

https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2089598-1d5bad0b-thiel-cs-37s-satin-black-wtheir-original-...

I am going to the paint store today and will decide between the Satin Black or a Matte Black that perfectly matches the aluminum shell that I spray painted with Krylon Acrylic Lacquer paint (#1613).

That 15 x 20 room sounds ideal for the CS3.7. 

Thanks guys. It looks like I need a bigger amp if I want the 3.6. How much difference sound quality between the 3.5 and 3.6?

@jafant what interconnects do you recommend I have laspada between my pre and my power amp on the thiel system. When I get my arcam I’ll probably keep that systems cables all laspada.  But I am looking to upgrade the cables on my imf system all around. Right now between the pre and amp on that system is an older mit interconnect cable that came with the mh750 speaker cables so I’ll probably be looking in the 300-600 range for a pair of interconnects. 

Hifi 28 I owned the 3.5s and moved on to the 3.6s in my opinion the 3.6s are better. They are both very good speakers but the 3.5 drivers are almost nonexistent as the 3.6s rob gillium can rebuild all the drivers. For that reason alone I would buy the 3.6s over the 3.5s.I had the 3.6s for 25 yrs trouble free and moved on to the cs 7s last yr. hope this helps David 

@hifi28, fitter468’s point about drivers are spot on. But, whether the 3.5’s or the 3.6’s are better comes down to individual preferences. I think if you read through this thread, you’ll find preferences pretty evenly divided for either one.

From a historical perspective the 3.5 > 3.6 transition is a watershed. The 3.5 has the more "correct" sealed box bass response. The model 2 was invented to implement the less expensive reflex bass. That introduces phase / time lag at the bottom of the spectrum, but the model 2’s reduced budget admitted that trade-off. Our pipe-dream vision of the model 3 was to develop a subwoofer that matched the second order sealed roll-off model three bass and which, by careful placement, can be made time correct and phase benign.

Around 1990 we had entered a subwoofer development project with Vifa creating a very early class D implementation. That should have become the bass foundation for a breakthrough 3.6. Another intriguing option was a transmission line bass, but at that time adequate modeling was not extant, and TL bass included tons of guess-work, trial and error and mixed results. An improved equalizer option was also floated as an intermediate step between acoustic and subwoofered bass. Through a few years of significant grief - that subwoofer didn’t materialize - it took years too long to develop. The market demanded a new model 3 offering, especially in Kathy’s opinion. Without putting too sharp a point on it, the 3.6 with its reflex bass became the result. Its bass is quite well executed, some say about as good as the form gets. But, it’s still a reflex bass system with its limitations and trade-offs.

I’m somewhat surprised that Jim continued with the reflex bass in his subsequent higher-end products rather than building on the seminal work of the sealed CS5, as well as developing transmission line and/or including subwoofer augmentation. A one-man development team can only take on so many challenges.

I second what's been said above. The 3.6 is the more mature and accurate product, plus it can be maintained with available rebuilt drivers.