I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2... I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor. The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!) So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere! Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
I give manufacturers and dealers a bit more credit for knowing what works best. It it made sense to bolster their business by offering home trials, I am certain that some of them would do that and get ahead of the competition. The fact that almost none of them do so, says something about the practice.
There would be substantial cost from loss, damaged stolen, etc. A lot of "customers" would take advantage of trials with no serious intention of making a purchase. I do know a number of dealers who do loan out gear, but, with something that is as easily damaged as a cartridge or speaker, there are fewer dealers that do this. I can get a loaner Koetsu, if I so desired, but, that comes from years of fair dealing with the particular dealer. There are simply too many out there that would take unfair advantage of dealer loans for this to be a widespread practice. I know two dealers in my area who loaned out some very expensive amplifiers to someone who then staged a "shootout" for their amusement (and to post their opinions in a blog); there was no real intention for purchase of any of the gear (this was discovered by one dealer who then confirmed what happened with the other dealer).
Of course, dealers can accept the fact that not all loans would be to someone seriously considering a purchase, and they can even accept some damage/loss, but, this would have to be factored into the price of the product. If a dealer did increase the price to offer auditions, I bet that a lot of perspective buyers would then buy on line from cheaper dealers who did not incur such additional cost.
@jperry What are you talking about? I guess if you think all cartridges sound great in all circumstances, then sure. Have you heard about something called cartridge compliance...? among numerous other requirements than can give varying results if something is incorrect....i guess not in your experience, right?
@larryi, I am interested in what works best for us, the customers, and less what works best for the dealers. As long as we as customers accept the status quo, there will be no change. To be clear, I think the manufacturers need to shoulder much of the financial risk, not the dealers. For one thing, what is the manufacturer cost on a $5K cart? I would hazard less than half that.
If I were, say Koetsu, I would provide dealers in major centers such as NY, LA, and Chicago with demos of their pricier cartridges. But, the customer would need to pay the FULL PRICE of the cart as a security deposit. I highly doubt a guy would shell out $15K so he could have a shootout he could blog about. If I was trying out a $5K cart, I would happily pay a hundred bucks (2% of the potential purchase price) to have it installed by an approved tech. Sure, this isn’t going to work for all people, only those in the major centers, but I bet that captures a good chunk of the potential buyers.
If a manufacturer isn’t willing to provide this service I question how much it REALLY cares about customer satisfaction.
So, you think there is so much margin that this can be easily accommodated, and because this is not offered, dealers are rolling in dough? It is then a strange market anomaly that there are fewer and fewer dealerships when there is so much rip-off money to be had.
There seems to be so much market opportunity for manufacturers that are not really being undertaken if all of this is true. Cartridge manufacturing is a truly small affair, a lot of the cartridges we are talking about are built by just one or two people. It sounds like what is being proposed is a vast distributor network with many demonstration/loan cartridges that will have to be built that are not intended for sale, trained tech people, etc. None of this sounds particularly realistic. As for paying for installation, most dealers already offer that, most will even make a housecall to do that, but, they have to charge quite a bit for that.
If there were so much as an extra nickel that could be extracted by doing anything being proposed here, I would bet that someone would be offering this service.
@larryi you bet or you know? Two quite different things. Look, maybe there is room for some middle ground both on the part of the manufacturer and the dealer. Honestly, if I was an artisinal cartridge maker, as many high end makers are, I would sell direct, using a distributor in each major geography to handle logistics. After all, as you said, this is a small, exclusive market with (typically) sophisticated, informed buyers. And let us not forget, the cost of shipping a very expensive cartridge is tiny, compared to, say, large speakers. By enabling the sophisticated buyer to try out cartridges through a distibutor, cutting out the dealer, there would remain ample margin for the manufacturer, don’t you think?
There is always a possibility that there is a new model out there that someone can put into operation that would be successful. That model might include an opportunity for customers to try out cartridges in their own system. But, I have not seen anything in this thread that appears viable at all. If a manufacturer sells directly to a customer, there is no one to help with service. I don't see how a small manufacturer can employ a distributor/agent to provide service and make any money. If such middleman collects from the customer, once again that is a substantial additional cost--cost of holding an inventory of demo cartridges, labor cost for mounting the demo cartridge, etc.
If one pays a substantial amount of money for the privilege of a home trial, of course that would work; paying money is a model for a transaction that always works.
davey and tangramca, You guys may agree that lending expensive cartridges for demo is, what? A good idea? It would be a good idea if we all were not so human. You agree that most or many dealers would not know how to demo a cartridge properly. What do you think is the skill level of many/most audiophiles when it comes to mounting and aligning a cartridge? So, at best, the potential buyer's judgement would be affected by his own skill at mounting and aligning. However, I am sure that if you are deemed to be a major purchaser, the very few remaining dealers who cater to such persons would visit your home, do the set up themselves, and then wait around for your opinion, preferably if you were also a possible buyer for other very expensive gear to complement the cartridge. Most of us are not in that category.
What you propose is not crazy or even novel; back in the day when we actually had high end dealerships in most major or even mid-major cities, it was common to be able to audition cartridges in the store. But theft was a major problem. Browsers would remove the headshell from the tonearm en bloc and walk off with both the cartridge and the headshell. And back then, an "expensive" cartridge would have cost the dealer only hundreds of dollars, as compared to the current situation with pricing. The theft of a few Koetsu Urushi's would dampen the dealer's enthusiasm for demonstrations, in a hurry. Alternatively, cartridges were damaged by ham-handed customers passing by.
I don't argue that the current state of affairs for persons who want to buy an expensive cartridge is ideal, but it has evolved over decades to be what it is now. The best we can do is read reviews, listen to others' systems, and take the leap. (Or deal with Robin Wyatt, per Chakster. He is a great guy with an impeccable reputation, and Miyajima are excellent cartridges.)
Have a Fidelity Research MC202, in fact have two of them. There are two out there for sale. About $500-700. Makes the instruments sound real. Low output so a quiet Phono Stage is necessary. My ownership bias is so strong I'm thinking about a third, just in case.
It would nice to walk in a store that can demo some of the most expensive modern cartridges in their system, require an audition, and bring some of the best vintage cartridges with us. Listen to a $15k modern cartridge on removable headshell, then mount some of the best rare vintage gems for less than $1.5k... And then to see a dealers face when $15k cartridge will be creamed by those vintage gems designed 30 years ago.
@daveyf my personal experience, but i only compared my best vintage MM/MI/MC carts from the 70s/80s to the $5k modern LOMC i must admit, i am not crazy to buy $15k cartridges. But i’ve bought $3-5k modern High-End LOMC carts myself (all brand new), never asked for a free audition, so this is my personal experience in my home system.
I think you will cry, sorry
The only problem is that exceptional vintage MM and MC are very rare and not easy to find in NOS condition nowadays. My techniques are different than yours. I can only buy cartridges and after a years of trying many of them i can say that i don’t need even $5k carts, i think i already explained in this post earlier.
This is all invented in the 70s and improved in the 80s to the maximum level in my opinion. All these and many more for under $1.5k in NOS condition. Do we need a $15k cartridge? No i don’t. Do i need to deal with distributor? No i don’t.
If I was trying out a $5K cart, I would happily pay a hundred bucks (2% of the potential purchase price) to have it installed by an approved tech.
I don't know where you live, but I live in L.A. A "local" customer could be 100 miles away from my shop. If I sent someone to install a cartridge in a customer's home that's 3+ hours away in traffic, both ways. If the tech spends an hour with the customer that's 7 hours of time. Plus gas, insurance, $15/hr minimum wage (for a high school kid), disability, unemployment, etc. For $100???
I would sell direct, using a distributor in each major geography to handle logistics.
If you are using a distributor, how can your sales channel also be direct? And what distributor is going to take on a line if they can't distribute through their dealer network? Unless you are talking Amazon...
@chakster Your preference for vintage cartridges is interesting. Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in them regardless of the price, or the reputation. Here’s one reason why, I have a very good a’phile friend who about a year ago decided he wanted to mount several so called ’ top condition’ vintage cartridges on his removable headshell arm and listen to see how..and if, he preferred the old models to his near new Lyra Atlas. After some experimentation with the vintage ( and in some cases NOS ) models he felt that there were some differences between his Atlas and the SPU’s etc., but not enough to warrant keeping the older models... So, he re-mounted his Atlas, and to his horror, the valuable and clean vinyl that he had used to demo the vintage models was now extremely noisy with the Atlas...as essentially he had ruined his LP’s!! Not my idea of fun, but if you think this is a cool result, be my guest.
elizabeth"Loaning things really only works with long time, repeat customers. The dealer knows the customer. The customer knows the dealer. Any other situation is folly for a dealer. As for manufacturers... They seem to be doing just fine as things stand. Why would one suddenly change"
This is a very considered, wise, and thorough assessment of the topic under review here buying a cartridge for a music reproduction system is not a task that is especially difficult and for those who listen to vinyl it is a periodic task because as we all know cartridges wear out no matter how many swear that some 40 year old "new old stock" phono transducers are the better of today's top quality designs.
So much emotions around f. cartridges and often no less f. dealers. Don't we have anything better to discuss ? In any case, table/arm and phono are much more important. Put any modern $1000 MM in great arm with great table and phono and it will be capable of more than most can hear. Vintage cartridges are only for experts or if you have friends who are experts. Besides, there wouldn't be enough for everyone. If you think that better MMs don't have enough speed and resolution you are wrong, check the rest of your chain and the wall current. Anyway, tape is the only true audiophile medium, except direct to disc recordings, don't bother too much.
Your preference for vintage cartridges is interesting. Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in them regardless of the price, or the reputation. Here’s one reason why, I have a very good a’phile friend who about a year ago decided he wanted to mount several so called ’ top condition’ vintage cartridges on his removable headshell arm and listen to see how..and if, he preferred the old models to his near new Lyra Atlas.
I like my vintage cartridges better than my ex ZYX Premium 4D SB - that was the most expensive modern High-End LOMC that i ever had and while it was a good cartridge (brand new from authorized US dealer), but for 5 times higher retail price than equal or even better vintage performers. I believe our @halcro compared his nice vintage carts to Lyra and many more morern LOMC and posted about it on audiogon in another thread.
@br3098 thanks for a dealer perspective. It is easy to have biases based on (limited by) personal experience. I live in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). One of the best analog guys in our area is an easy 30 minute drive for me. What do you believe is a sales model that does work/could work where customers can make an informed decision prior to the purchase of something that is as expensive as a Rolex and that wears out with use? Not disposable but also not maintanance-free either. Seems like there is room for dealers and customers to meet somewhere in the middle.
@tangramca Another post that I totally agree with. The dealers like the current situation with high end cartridges just fine, thank you very much. Why wouldn’t they? After all, no inventory to stock, easy to ship with minimal expense, no return policies, very unlikely repair and after sale hassles, huge margins, probability that the unit will be damaged in the future....how many of the high end cartridges actually come with a stylus guard? --leading to another sale, no easy repair for the consumer...another large profit center; and a simple ordering process for them....
No wonder, IMHO, that there has been some considerable push-back here, and on other threads/forums, when this nice ’golden goose’ has been threatened! Whining, only from people that clearly have something to lose--and that’s become VERY obvious.
A reasonable approach for the situation mentioned by br3098 is for the customer to agree to pay the going rate for a house call. In my area, that is $120 to $150 an hour. So, it would be something like $840 dollars. If the customer chooses to buy the expensive cartridge, a portion, if not all of that amount could be rebated. If not, the buyer would be absorbing a painfully high amount, but, it would still be better than paying thousands for a cartridge that is not loved. Given how much the value of a used cartridge depreciates, that amount is still much less than buying a cartridge and then selling it as used.
Because I have a very good relationship with a couple of local dealers, I got to buy my cartridges with a right to return them if I did not like them. These were not dealer demonstration cartridges, these where new cartridges ordered for me. I never returned the cartridges so the dealer did not lose out. This sort of arrangement is possible if there trust is developed with a dealer.
When I was in the market for a high-end linestage many years ago, I went to a dealer who carried two of the brands I was interested in. He did not have the flagship models in his store that I wanted to audition. What he offered was to buy the flagship models of both brands on the promise by me to buy one or the other. This would work out for him financially. A dealer gets a substantially lower price for the first purchase of any model of gear from the distributor or manufacturer (this is to encourage purchase of a store demonstration unit). If I bought one of either models, the cost of both would be covered by the purchase. As it turned out, I like the first model he got in and bought it, so he never had to order the model from the other brand. I got a good discount in the deal, even without asking for it. This is how an arrangement has to be--it has to be financially worthwhile for both parties.
tangramca, actually I am a former (recovering) dealer. If I had the answer to your question I would probably still be a dealer today.
In the 1970s and into the 80s there used to be dealers like you describe; I worked for one in the 1970s. But the high-end audio industry is a very different animal today. For one thing, much of the product available on the high-end is manufactured on a very small scale - one step away from a cottage industry. These shops cannot handle dealing with a multitude of dealers, nor are most dealers setup to coordinate with an infinite amount of manufacturers.
Another reason: in the 1970s and 1980s, most audio products were manufactured by large, (mostly) financially secure companies. Today there is a plethora of products, including well considered high-end products being manufactured in someone's garage. There's nothing wrong with that, but almost anyone who has attended a major audio show could agree that "are there too many audio products available" is a valid question.
I don't think that the Rolex analogy works well. Rolex devices are typically sourced through importers (aka distributors), and Rolex doesn't change models or features often. Also, if Rolex purchased by a shop doesn't sell it can be stored and resold much later at a higher cost as a "classic" product. Even if a dealer could afford to adopt a buy and hold strategy (almost none can), this has not proved to be largely not true for audio products, with the exception of NOS tubes.
Despite what others think. I'm not defending the current status quo as the best system. But in reality it's the system we have and I don't believe it's going to change anytime soon. But as I wrote before, if any of you has a better business plan please put it into motion and let's see how the audio community supports it. Please advise us when you setup your GoFundMe page.
@br3098 It appears to me that you are constantly confusing the difference between cartridges and other gear. We are ONLY talking about cartridges here...not amps, not digital gear, not speakers etc., All of these items can be easily demo’ed in the consumers system, and returned with no issue if incompatible. IMO, the Rolex example works reasonably well, because it is a high priced small item, one that has a large margin built in- and one that is also subject to considerable devaluation...( i don’t know what makes you think that all Rolex’s have appreciation, LOL. Next time you buy a Rolex, wear it for a few weeks or months and then see how much your friendly Rolex dealer is willing to give you if you want a return, LMAO) Here’s the difference between a Rolex and a high priced cartridge ( and where the analogy fails,IMO)...you absolutely know what you are getting with a Rolex the minute you try it on ( plus the dealer carries stock of Rolex's...usually!), not so with the various high end cartridges--because trying it on isn’t an OPTION!
We are ONLY talking about cartridges
here...not amps, not digital gear, not speakers etc., All of these items
can be easily demo’ed in the consumers system ...
Sorry, but many serious speaker systems and amplifiers are bulky, heavy, difficult to transport and not at all "
easily demo’ed" outside of the dealer's shop. And while you say that when it comes to phono cartridges, for an audio dealer there's ...
no inventory to stock ... no return
policies ... huge margins ... no easy repair for the consumer ... another large profit
center ...
... that doesn't look like it applies to the few dealers where I shop. And that's why I suggest that you find a better dealer to work with, and accept that he'll be making a profit on the sale.
@cleeds What you say about some speakers/amps is very true, but auditioning them in your system is not a problem for most of the dealers that I have experience with. Primary reason is that they are not a wear item like a cartridge, plus the dealers seem to have no problem stocking/re-stocking these pieces, or getting them if necessary! I don’t know where you shop, but can you really tell me that your dealer carries the full line of Koetsu,VDH, MSL’s, Air Tight’s Lyra etc.,? I serially doubt that they carry just one of these lines...and then most likely just one cartridge on demo.. if that. A better dealer? I’m open to suggestions in the S.Calif area? Remember that’s where I live- and I have a fair amount of experience with most (all?) of these folks. Also, I have absolutely NO problem with the dealer who can give me sales support and accurate information making a profit...NONE. This is why i ended up buying my new cartridge from just such a person...and not at a considerable discount online! I think it might be beneficial if you re-read my OP, as this is where the whole thread is based. Not on attempting to discover where the good dealers are. ( Although IF your dealer doesn’t follow the standard biz practices that we all are subject to...it would seem here in the US, and abroad...well certainly in Canada...myself--and I suspect most others, would like to know who these folks are..and IF they are in the US?)
Given the extremely high price for some items, perhaps somebody would be willing to treat audio gear like an automobile--you can lease the item, meaning the substantial depreciation in value is covered by the lease payment. How about rent to own or some other kind of lease with an option to purchase?
I dunno about the repo man though, he would have to break into the house to get back that amp or cartridge or whatever.
The record labels rejoiced when digital came along (40 years in there are new problems of course). Vinyl mastering is fraught with potential for error. ( I know as i owned a vinyl mastering studio). Record pressing diitto. Damaged stock returns, yes. Then comes the replay. It's always been frustrating. And lovely too.
However, I do feel there is potential to develop a new way. It would certainly help if market size was substantially larger as I alluded to before. The high end audio industry has traditionally given time away in exchange for product margin. Perhaps if the *skill* was compensated for (like say an electrician) the product margins could shift. Problem is most people (including many audiophiles) do not perceive that it is a skill to spec a well performing turntable arrangement, factoring in downtream system, and then expertly set it up. And seriously undervalue it imho.
Gosh, now you've got me thinking about quitting my job and selling (just) cartridges full time. Help me think through this...
How much would I need to invest in inventory to be the ideal "cartridge guy" in the DFW metroplex? I'm centrally located, so I can get most anywhere around Dallas / Fort Worth within an hour.
Assuming a 50% markup, how much inventory do you think I could move in a year? No discounts from MSRP. Sorry.
How much time would it take for me to set up a single cartridge on a typical table? Am I using a paper protractor or am I lugging around my 'scope? Would I be required to re-set-up your existing cartridge should I leave without you purchasing the last cartridge you demoed?
Is my time chargeable? What if you demo 6 to 7 cartridges and decide you like the way your 30 year old cartridge chews up your vinyl? Or you decide you could get the cartridge cheaper even after booking a flight to Tokyo?
How much time would you get to audition a cartridge? I'm assuming I'm not leaving the goods unattended. If your dog eats one of my cartridges, did you just buy it?
Am I liable for any damage (perceived or otherwise) to your existing equipment?
I do not think @daveyf is being too pedantic... well maybe a little.
Its amazing really.
I'm one of those guys that has several top flight cartridges that had never heard any of them in my very own set up.
I maybe heard a sister cartridge at the dealer's but never the one.. no one carried the top of the line and certainly would not lend it even though I have had good relationships with dealers on hard goods and taking those on trial. These cartridges are probably $15 k each at retail or more.
Never heard one in my system nada. I try to triangulate based on hearing what I can where I can and read. It makes no sense for the consumer.
I think @tangramca and I live in the same area. I have a dealer near me that has maybe 1/2 million in analog tables, arms and cartridges... really. I can't get a sign of how that cartridge in that arm .. (he has maybe 20 combinations)... would ever sound in my system.
To complicate matters , often the brands I look at , Koetsu is one of them, are so heavily loaded with the local distributor's excess that I sometimes buy offshore from qualified dealers at 1/2 the price. I mean if a dealer is not going to carry the unit locally and just have it drop shipped - what's the point ? I weigh the risk and I have developed good long distance relationships with some dealers of alternative brands not available locally or so heavily priced in our small market that it is worth going off the reservation.
I guess I do not expect dealers to lend cartridges.. however, I don't expect to pay full retail if you've never had it to demo, ever, and simply order on my behalf.
I don't waste dealer's time.. actually I am probably a customer they would respect. I expect them to make money to pay the heat, wages, taxes and inventory. I rarely haggle-- I let the relationship bargain for me. Its easy to experience the value of dealer... and pay for it. with hard goods but cartridges have always been out of scope.
Davey, You're wasting bytes. What you want to happen is never going to happen. It's from an era that is dead and gone. Get used to it. Or maybe, move to Japan or Hong Kong. I would guess that home demo of phono cartridges can be done in those locales.
The story about vintage cartridges making LPs too noisy to play when the Lyra was re-mounted sounds to me like hogwash or the result of incompetence on the part of the person who was doing the work. I own a dozen vintage MM/MI cartridges and 4-5 high end LOMC cartridges (ZYX Universe, AT ART7, Koetsu Urushi, Dynavector 17D3, Ortofon MC7500, and Ortofon MC2000; both of the last two are "vintage", I admit). I regularly switch back and forth between them. (I also own four turntables set up in two systems.) Properly set-up vintage cartridges with useable styli do not ruin LPs at a rate any faster than do modern LOMC cartridges. (But this is not the issue we are discussing.)
Wonder if the Tubestore will let me try out those match set of $20000 Western Electric 300B's they have listed. yeah another overpriced item that will blow eventually. And you wonder why there is $15000. carts because some people will pay the price period. no other reason, i'm looking at you diminishing returns.
I just finished reading the reviews of the Koetsu Onyx Platinum and the Rosewood Signature Platinum along with the MSL eminent cartridge in the latest issue of Stereophile. Problem for me, and this is possibly because I have a pretty good idea of the ancillary gear that the reviews utilized in these reviews, is that unfortunately, none of it goes any way to show how very colored and warm these cartridges are...with the possible exception of the MSL. But if one were to just read these reviews and then make a buying decision based on them, I personally believe that a buyer looking for a resolved and fast cartridge would be in for a shock....just based on the glowing Hyperbole filled reviews. @nrenter you happen to be one of the dealers that are selling these cartridges? Because your clear bias is showing through loud and clear! I can tell this, you sir have never been in a buying position with a very expensive cartridge under consideration. Otherwise I seriously doubt your snarky attitude would be so prevalent.
I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right. Therefore, playing them on your most prized and collectible vinyl is perfectly safe....you do that. I’ll pass on this idea... My a’phile friend destroyed thousands of dollars of great and collectible Albums....I have no intention of following in his footsteps. I say to you...go for it, lol.
The story about vintage cartridges making LPs too noisy to play when the Lyra was re-mounted sounds to me like hogwash....
Copy that...
My a’phile friend destroyed thousands of dollars of great and collectible Albums.
Oh sure.....he played what....20 records with a stylus that was ripping the grooves to shreds and he happily 'listened'....? Buy that...and you will believe this guy actually has something to offer and is not a Troll...🤮
I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right.
The lifespan of the best diamonds is up to 1500 hrs at least, MicroLine and related Line Contact or MicroRidge diamonds invented long time ago. The best profiles to save the records if the set-up is correct. Minimum record wear! Who’s buyin vintage cartridges with worn needles? Maybe your friend has been cheated by the seller, but any vintage cartridge can be shipped for stylus inspection for about $40 to professionals.
And while the old Koetsu is terribly made cartridge, i will give you an example of the vintage LOMC that NEVER has had a problem with suspension, it’s Fidelity-Research FR-7fz (or lower FR-7f series). Simply learn more about FR carts here. And do yourself a favour check this out - you will find a direct comparison between FR and different Koetsu.
Some vintage carts (from particular brands) indeed have serious problem with suspension, but not all vintage carts. And actually it’s easy to check prior to buyin them by requesting a pictures from the seller. Honest sellers also made comments about suspension condition.
And finally what’s the damage? Maybe you prefer to spend $5k on a brand new cartridge that you don’t like (or not involving to your ears)?
You guys just go on in your vintage cartridge bliss, like I said, they are absolutely NOT for me. My friend didn’t actually hear the damage until he went back to the Atlas...are you sure you haven’t already done the damage and have not heard it yet?..possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency!
@halcro. Actually,I believe he played just two records with the Atlas before he noticed the problem....but there were several that were now very noisy that were not that way before.
OTOH, I can tell you’re not that concerned about your vinyl...so be it.
Seems to me that br3098 has the clearest explanation. I'd love to have a stereo store, hang out, playing my favorite music, sending my faithful employee for a herb run ( I live in Oregon) and best of all- allow my customers to take anything they want, just to see/hear if they like it. In their own home! Then return it when they realize they don't like it, buyers remorse, found the same thing online for less $... But the reality is...see br3098's post.
possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency!
You must be kidding? They are at least equal (to be politically correct) to everything modern including $3-5K ZYX, Lyra, Ortofon and many other cartridges we have already compared to the best vintage ones. Some of us prefers MM/MI over MC. They are absolutely neutral and frequency response is flat over entire range. Your friend might have a worn/used average cartridge. We’re talking about some exceptionally good vintage cartridges, not about those carts that you can easily buy today, they are rare and people hunting for them. Also can you imagine that vintage cartridge can be NOS (New Old Stock, with intact diamond) ? How can you damage anything with it? Maybe your friend’s knowledge about vintage cartridges is very low, who knows, you never mentioned which particular cartridge are you talking about. Some killer vintage cartridges does not hand made in garage like today’s high-end carts from a very small manufacturers, but they came from industry giants like Technics/Matsishita Victor/JVC, Sony... etc with cost no object budgets utilized unique know-how in their flagship models back in the 70s/80s. The best recording techniques came from the same era, the best analog studio equipment, simply unbeatable til today. Actually some vinyl recorded earlier in the 50s and 60s are superb compared to the modern digital crap. Best studios still using disc cutting lathe machines from the same era! Studio tape machines from that, microphones from that era and many many more equipment. Why do you think a cartridge is an exception? I just don’t get the logic. Maybe it’s not for you personally, but please don’t full people with that crap. Those guys are pretty smart if they know how to sell a $5-20k cartridges today, but do you believe they are so much better, why ? You can comment only after you will compare some of them, but seems like you have another problem (you can’t audition modern high-end cartridges prior to buying, oops).
People on this forum are the most uninformed, self centered people I have ever encountered as a group. Evidently setting up a high end turntable, buying, and installing a cartridge requires more attention than I realized.
If demand was ruled by desire, and the ability to purchase high end audio, there would be very little decline. For a multiplicity of reasons, people can no longer afford high end audio.
I don't necessarily share all of Chakster's adoration of all vintage cartridges over all modern, expensive MCs. I judge them all separately, and I do find that the old MM and MI types give more bang for the buck as well as more absolute bang, most of the time. Nor do I or Chakster claim that they last "forever". The point is that a "good" one has no more of a wearing effect on an LP than does a modern, brand new sample, assuming both are properly set up. (If you disagree, please divulge the scientific basis for your claim.) Do you want to get into a debate over who loves his LPs more, Chakster, Halcro, and I vs you and your friend with the Lyra Atlas? That strikes me as nonproductive. The fact is your conclusion based on your friend's experience is in error. But the debate about vintage vs new production is really separate from the main subject of your post.
The fact is, as has been written here before by me and many, many others, the current method of marketing "expensive" cartridges has evolved over 40-50 years due to the nature of the marketplace and the economies associated with running an audio business, either a bricks and mortar type or a mail order type. And in fact, if you care to look, there are several businesses that WILL allow you to return a cartridge if unharmed and within a specific time window after purchase. Often, to be accorded such a privilege, you have to be a trusted customer with a good track record. Robin Wyatt is one who has been mentioned. I am pretty sure that Mehran, who sells ZYX will do that for folks he knows. Others have mentioned other companies. So, let's move on.
@orpheus10 thanks for the link. I have a different take on the state of high end audio that is largely demographic/cultural. First, it is worth pointing out that the article in the link is very US centric. Are we talking about the decline of the high end globally or in the US? I think you would find that the high end continues to thrive in Asia, aided by the growing Chinese middle and upper class.
Regarding the US (or, let’s say, the West). Being an audiophile is a time-consuming affair. Today, people have many more ways to spend their time than in the past. Folks are also leading busier lives leaving less time for hobbies. Ergo, the decline of golf and the ascent of less time intensive endeavours. People still enjoy hobbies but for shorter spurts of time.
Society also suffers from collective ADD, thanks to more options of things to do as well as social media. Even if people had the time to sit and listen for a couple of hours, many people (not just young people!) would have trouble concentrating on listening for any length of time.
Finally, condo living is increasingly prevelant so space is at a premium and neighbors near by. Unless you go the headphone route (which seems to be thriving), condo living isn’t ideal for the audiophile lifestyle, especially the high end. Again, Asia bucks the trend, as it is culturally acceptable for large, expensive systems to occupy prime real estate within tiny apartments. Not so much in the West.
Sorry about going off topic but this trend impacts much of what we have been discussing. If the high end were larger, economy of scales would (potentially) provide for a better buying experience.
@nrenter you make a couple of points I agree with but you do seem to be missing some of what has been recommended as solutions. For example, I think the manufacturer should provide select dealers with demos, with limited financial risk to the dealer. Yes, a house call is ideal but not necessary in many cases. Why would the dealer wait while you tested the cartridge? You have already paid a security deposit equal to the entire value of the cartridge.
What ideas do you have to improve on the status quo?
Markets were manipulated with corporate money, under the direction of presidential administrations.
Those who know are afraid to speak, and those who speak pay a price.
The CFTC, the agency that has protected us from commodity market manipulation over the years, could not protect us from our own government in the White House. Those excessively high prices for food and gasoline decimated the lower middle class, and it's rippling up to the small business class presently.
When you add up all the economic calamities that affected millions of people all over this country, you can see how they resulted in citizens having less money.
In regard to Asia, the rich got richer, the same as here, but here there was a smaller percent that got richer, but they got incredibly richer, resulting in the "high high high end".
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