The new Synergistic Research BLUE fuses ....

The way wolf KEEPS banging on about the cost of these fuses, anyone would think he was an under-achiever in life and this was just a bit of projected resentment against those who can buy as many of these fuses as they wish. Perish the thought, obviously, hahaha. This thread is pure entertainment and an insight into human psychology all at the same time. Please don't stop.

@uberwatlz,

The same thing happened to me but I inquired and got my post reinstated after it was reviewed. There seems to be a desire to frame this thread in such a way so as to give legitimacy to one side over the other.

@gdhal 

A long time ago had a friend who got his psychology degree from Berkeley and he had this habit of steering conversation through gentle manipulations to get a person to see things his way or just for the fun of it. 

I caught on rather quickly so he'd probe others and use people for his enjoyment. I'd always catch his eye and shake my head. It's something I haven't forgotten.

As to the topics being different, that's incidental as it's the tactic I sense you're using. It looks like you're trying to gently corner someone into that bet again. I could be wrong and would be glad to be but I've seen this before and it's uncannily like what I've experienced.

All the best,
Nonoise

I am proud to report that my suggestion in the Please Read and express your feelings and opinions thread ****is going to be CONSIDERED by Audiogon development staff****.

To reiterate the suggestion:

The OP of any particular thread should also be afforded the function of removing any particular post and/or blocking a poster altogether from his/her thread.

Posting here to provide advanced warning should any member be prone to withdrawal symptoms.

gdhal, you mean you’re finally turning yourself in? Good for you, Jack! 

To those who must keep asking, "But WHY do these fuses work?", I have simply suggested superior materials over that glass tube, etc., but this idea is just not satisfactory--has to more than that--couldn't be that obvious.  
 I am reminded of my co-worker, a follower of a health guru, and a conversation we had in a buffet line.  I remarked, "Look at that nice cut of roast--I'm having some of that!"  He replied, "Well, I don't eat cooked meat because the heat destroys all the proteins."  I said, "What do you mean--that meat IS the protein--you're LOOKING at it."   
 

Sorry, probably should have added the word "diagnosed".

Ah it is all good Nonoise, I think I now have a grand total of 3 posts deleted in the forums, all on this thread....lol.

Actually even though it sounds like a heaven send to this thread, the idea of an OP being able to remove posts and block users, I think it would or could just be seen as intolerance of others views, especially if the privilege is abused.
Of course I am not saying Frank would do that but I certainly could envisage a scenario where some OPS, may do so.

I think the better course is for certain members to learn to exercise some degree of self control. If they cannot and this is proven by a number of posts then possibly a time out imposed by admin would be in order.

Just my thoughts and not advocating ANY of the actions mentioned.

uberwaltz,

It should be one of those self explanatory comments...depending on the reader.

If I have to explain it to you, then I’m not talking TO you.

I’m talking ABOUT you ;-)

Prof
Just the sort of remark I expected.
You had a real opportunity to actually post something constructive.
Seems everyone thinks they are a comedienne nowadays......

The OP of any particular thread should also be afforded the function of removing any particular post and/or blocking a poster altogether from his/her thread. 

In the case of this thread, I agree. Oregonpapa (Frank) would probably love to have that ability to keep this thread going the way it was intended.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise - In the case of this thread, I agree. Oregonpapa (Frank) would probably love to have that ability to keep this thread going the way it was intended.

@nonoise

Terrific!!

Your statement begs the question:

In the case of which thread would you *disagree* with my suggestion?

Prof sez:

• Oh geeze, threads like this, especially the OP, make me embarrassed for this hobby. No wonder audiophiles have the reputation we do.
  

Someone else with an ax to grind? And ... what is that reputation, exactly?

__________________________________________________________

If an OP had the ability to delete posts, I’d be tempted to delete those that are either personal attacks, or those that are obviously designed to harm the businesses of producers. Other than that, I’d say that anything goes. Don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve learned a lot since I started my first thread ... even from the naysayers.

I posted on another audiophile site the other day that I don’t frequent often. Someone asked the question as to what he could do to get his room under control. All I did was make a simple suggestion that he might want to try SR HFT’s. Well, based upon the shrill, negative personal attacks directed my way, and toward Ted Denney by another member, you’d think I was suggesting killing everyone’s first born. I did some research and found that the guy is a manufacturer and seller of room treatments. Yep ... I suspect there’s a lot of that going on these audiophile forums not just here but elsewhere too.

Frank

In the case of which thread would you *disagree* with my suggestion?

None that come to mind. Are you of a mind to start one? 
I'd gladly sit that one out. 👍

All the best,
Nonoise

geoffkait8,963 posts04-16-2018 5:24am
gdhal, you mean you’re finally turning yourself in? Good for you, Jack!

Jack pot!!! No. 4

tel55517 posts04-16-2018 5:39am

gdhal, are you autistic?

I’ve no idea why I’m even needing to ask the question, but hey.

Hey a new recruit No. 5? and with a lot of posting credentials, least it more than what SR themselves are prepared to put up.

Cheers George

Frank,

Someone else with an ax to grind? And ... what is that reputation, exactly?

Are you seriously unaware of the nutty reputation audiophiles have for having wacky beliefs about tweaks etc?  I can't be bringing this up to you for the first time, can I?

Audiophile fuses, and especially the effusive subjective claims of the OP, are of a piece with markers on CDs, tinfoil pieces placed around a system, little "resonating" discs placed on components or around a room, and the countless other dubious beliefs held by many audiophiles.

When you rely on the really poor protocols that many audiophiles use to declare sonic differences, it's not surprising that virtually anything can be claimed to have made a sonic difference. 

But, go ahead and spend away on audiophile fuses if you want.  It's your dime, your game.

I'm an audiophile insofar as I love high end audio.  But it's also sometimes frustrating to be associated with a hobby that also comes in for so much well deserved ridicule. 

Prof
One assumes you base ALL of your ridicule of audio tweaks on actual experience yes?

@tel555

Out here in the fields
I fight for my meals
I get my back into my living
I don't need to fight
To prove I'm right
I don't need to be forgiven
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Just curious, what is your music preference, assuming you listen at all.

prof ...

Nope,  not aware of any "nutty reputations" enjoyed by audiophiles other than the hobby seems to attract "nerds."  All one has to do to verify this is to attend any audio show and just look around. 

Who exactly is pointing their fingers at audiophiles and their "wacky beliefs about tweaks?" Most non-audiophiles aren't aware of tweaks, or anything else about the hobby. So ... that begs the question if its just closed minded audiophiles accusing other audiophiles of being "nutty" that you're referring to.

I HAVE tried a multitude of various tweaks over the 40+ years in the hobby. Some have validity, and some don't. SR Blue fuses do ... as does some others that I've posted about.  If they don't work to improve the SQ in my system, I don't post about them. 

Question:  Have you tried the SR Blue fuses in your system? If not, then how are you forming the opinion that they're bunk? 

Another question:  What tweaks have you tried in your system that actually improved SQ? Anything??

 

• But it's also sometimes frustrating to be associated with a hobby that also comes in for so much well deserved ridicule.
  

That's a bit arrogant on your part, wouldn't you say? 

Frank

A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐫 has of passing through the eye 👀 of a needle. 

uberwaltz,

Your question is like "how do you know magnetic bracelets don't work in healing people don't work if you haven't tried it?"

Just as a magnetic bracelet is based on medical claims that have no main-stream medical backing and the "evidence" is of the unreliable personal anecdote variety, it's the same with audiophile fuses.

As far as I know...and I'm happy to be corrected...the claim that introducing an audiophile grade fues in place of (a competently implemented) existing fuse in a component will alter the sound doesn't have backing by electrical engineers.  Certainly I've seen electrical engineers - the ones who don't have an investment in selling audiophile fuses - saying it's nonsense.

Further, my skepticism is based both on my own experience, and in understanding the reasoning for why the scientific method exists.

I am well aware how fallible human perception is - there's a ton of science showing this.  And my own blind tests have given me personal acquaintance with just how easy it is to think I perceive a sonic difference that isn't really there.

If there are measurements showing the output of a competently designed component actually changes with the introduction of an audiophile fuse...I'm not aware of it.  But I'd appreciate a link if you have one.

But the talk of "200 hour break in" of a fuse is, I'm sorry, tin-foil-hat territory.  And the method the OP used to determine the amazing sonic effects of these fuses is indistinguishable from those used to determine coloring or demagtezing CDs, or little resonating discs, "change" the sound, which electrical engineers (who aren't trying to sell these products) will explain as nonsense.

When you rely on the really poor protocols that many audiophiles use to declare sonic differences, it’s not surprising that virtually anything can be claimed to have made a sonic difference.

But, go ahead and spend away on audiophile fuses if you want. It’s your dime, your game.

I’m an audiophile insofar as I love high end audio. But it’s also sometimes frustrating to be associated with a hobby that also comes in for so much well deserved ridicule.

+1 Prof

If you go back to the OP’s first post and see the differences one "black" fuse did, them maybe multiples into all the equipment, then after that the massive improvements the "blue" does over the "black" then the massive improvements multiple "blues" do.

You’ve got to think to your self, that system of his must of sounded real t**d before any of these boutique $150 fuses came along.

Cheers George

Prof
I respect your distrust of tweaks and some of your reasoning for said attitude, some of the claims for some tweaks I have seen are borderline idiocy I agree.

However please do not tar ALL tweaks with the same brush.

Not repeating myself yet again, scroll back a few posts and you will see where I have come from as far as fuses are concerned.

And before you ask, yes I AM a working EE but do NOT believe that science has the answer for everything or can explain all.

I keep an open mind on quite a variety of things, not all in the audio world either.

Ridicule away, I am happy with having spent my money where I chose too.

I realize this remark will be met with some skepticism, but there has never been an audiophile tweak that has been proven to be a hoax or a fraud. Sorry for bursting any bubbles.

Geoff, maybe your statement should include that there is a tweak for every system as nearly all audio systems (equipment and room treatment) vary. What works in one of my audio systems does not necessarily work in my other audio system the same way. However, the SR fuse had such an obvious and apparent improvement over stock cheap fuses that an equipment designer thought it was easy to upgrade his equipment after hearing it without a double blind test. Frank knows that a few (6) high quality capacitors in the right place changes a now cheap DVD player into a world beater CD player.

We have done double blind tests on his IC cables from earlier to later versions which have great similarity. They require this type of test to ferret out what we like and dislike concerning the new versus older design cables. We use different types of music repeated on a CD recording with a third party organizing the CD. Then we listen, make comments and the cable designer decides what he will do next to his new design to keep it or start again and try something else (really subtle changes such as 26g. silver ribbon in place of a 28g. copper ribbon to obtain more open highs).

prof - ....And my own blind tests have given me personal acquaintance with just how easy it is to think I perceive a sonic difference that isn't really there. ....

+1

And the proponents are admitting they are not blind testing, including all the wrong reasons (delusion, denial and invalidity of test) presented by GK. 

Very puzzling to say/write the least, especially given how enjoyable it can be to **listen** to Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob, repeat a few times and see if you can guess right. Simple. 

Certainly I've seen electrical engineers - the ones who don't have an investment in selling audiophile fuses - saying it's nonsense. 

Have you seen the video or read the posting of PS Audio's Paul McGowan stating that fuses do make a difference though he can't explain why? 

Further, my skepticism is based both on my own experience

Are you implying you've tried aftermarket fuses? Or are you able to divine that they don't work? It's difficult to figure where the mysticism lies.

All tweaks can't be conflated. If you've been following this thread, someone made an audio waveform copy of the same system with two different power conditioners and there was more info on one than the other. That slight trace of sound was distinguishable enough to recognize the music being played and it added to it, for the better.

Rather than sit on one's high horse and decry things, get on with it, try a fuse, or test one, or carry on yelling from the rooftops, which seems to be de rigueur for naysayers.

The view must be breathtaking though the air is thin. 

All the best,
Nonoise

geoffkait - I realize this remark will be met with some skepticism, but there has never been an audiophile tweak that has been proven to be a hoax or a fraud. Sorry for bursting any bubbles.

My proposed test isn't meant to nor will it prove anything. But it can be useful to demonstrate if what someone claims to hear they actually can hear, or are merely in a state of delusion.

In other words, you are correct. It won't prove a fuse is or isn't a hoax or a fraud. But it will provide opportunity to offer into evidence whether or not the impossible, is possible. Sorry for bursting any bubbles. 

That was the most self contradictory thing I've read in a long, long time.

@uberwaltz,

And before you ask, yes I AM a working EE but do NOT believe that science has the answer for everything or can explain all.

I’m glad to hear you are an EE, but you should know that is no protection from fooling yourself.

The whole insight of the scientific enterprise is how easy we are to fool, no matter how earnest. Remember the always relevant Richard Feynman quote: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool."

This is why a good scientist employs the type of double-checking protocols like blind/double-blind testing, scrutiny by others trying to prove you wrong, replicatability /predictability of experiments, reduction of variables, etc. A scientist is just as easy to fool through bias and loose protocols as anyone else.

This is why simply being an EE is no firewall against your own susceptibility to bias effects.

@nonoise

Have you seen the video or read the posting of PS Audio’s Paul McGowan stating that fuses do make a difference though he can’t explain why?

Yes I have seen it. (Recently, in fact). And it is an example of exactly what I said to uberwaltz. McGowan’s experience making audio equipment in no way insulates him from the very same bias issues that affect any other human. Insofar as he "tests" for sonic differences with lax protocol, of the anecdotal kind he describe in "hearing" the sonic difference between fuses, he is a susceptible to flawed inferences like any other person. Thus his saying "I heard a difference" is no different than any other audiophile saying the same, given the same unreliable method was used to make this inference.

All tweaks can’t be conflated. If you’ve been following this thread, someone made an audio waveform copy of the same system with two different power conditioners and there was more info on one than the other. That slight trace of sound was distinguishable enough to recognize the music being played and it added to it, for the better.

Fascinating. I did not see that in this very long thread. Would you have a link?

Note that this type of evidence is conspicuously missing for the vast majority of audiophile tweaks I’m talking about, including most AC cable claims.

So I would like to see the evidence you mention. And of course, even if there is a variation, the question remains open as to whether it amounted to an audible difference, and if the test for this was sighted...well...that just keeps it in the realm of problematic that I’m talking about.

Getting back to superior materials in high-end components, a case in point is what can be heard through different levels of stethoscopes.  An entry-level scope can be had on Amazon for $15-$30 and is fine for some, with testimonials of, "Works for me", "Good for the money", "Better than I thought", etc.  They are made of a stamped, lightweight bell, a plastic diaphragm, a single-lumen tube connected to thin-metal binaural earpieces capped with hard-plastic ear cups.  In contrast, a 3M Littmann Master Cardiology scope has a cast, stainless-steel bell that is quite heavy. The tough diaphragm has a silicone surround that allows for membrane discursion.  The thick tube contains two inner lumens for superior transmission of sound, ending in soft ear cups that seal out external noise.  Much more detail in lung, heart, bowel and vessel sounds can be heard. Although there now are electronically-assisted scopes, the traditional stethoscope is a purely acoustical, diagnostic tool, used from body to ear and varies dramatically in acoustic sensitivity depending on quality of materials.          

Well it is time for me to do the same as I have done many times during this thread, sit back and enjoy my music.

I am happy with my choices and Tbh could not care less what anybody else thinks.
If you want to believe I am just deluding myself, fine whatever pushes your buttons.

I had hoped this thread would regain its bearings but seems that was a forlorn hope.

nonoise - That was the most self contradictory thing I’ve read in a long, long time.

This is a relief. For moment I thought whatever I wrote wasn’t even being read. The next step would be in the understanding of what has been written. The "spirit" and "essence" of what is written, as well.

All this talk of do these fuses work or not has lead me to the conclusion I must learn how to measure my system . I plan on measuring everything I do . Change out a cable - take a measurement . Move a diffuser - take a measurement .... If my ear can hear a difference a highly accurate microphone should hear the same . Should this not apply to a fuse ? Does not one fuser have a microphone to prove once and for all if the Synergistic fuse does change the sound ? Or one of the naysayers take measurements ?

Fascinating. I did not see that in this very long thread. Would you have a link?

It's from your post just a bit up from here:

Audiophile fuses, and especially the effusive subjective claims of the OP, are of a piece with markers on CDs, tinfoil pieces placed around a system, little "resonating" discs placed on components or around a room, and the countless other dubious beliefs held by many audiophiles.

And, you seem to forget that Paul McGowan had no idea what his friend was replacing as he put the new fuse in and took it out. All he heard was the sound getting better, then worse, then better, then worse. It was only afterwards, that his friend told him all he did was replace the fuse.

All the best,
Nonoise

maplegrovemusic - All this talk of do these fuses work or not has lead me to the conclusion I must learn how to measure my system....Or one of the naysayers take measurements ?

Of course fuses work. I realized this first hand very long ago when my carver receiver for some reason drew to much power. The fuse blew. I replaced it with another one I bought at radio shack, where they happened to have a "5 pack" of the same voltage/amperage fuse. I still have 4 left, and they are in a little green tin from a company called "Littlefuse" (subsidiary of Tracor). They must be 30 years old. Anyway, at the time I replaced the blown fuse with the first one in the package, I didn't care (or know or even think to care) about its direction. Nothing on the green tin from the manufacturer about direction either. I turned on the receiver. It worked. It sounded exactly the same as it did with the original fuse that it came with. I didn't feel the need to scrutinize the sound to even try and determine if there was the slightest difference. It never blew again. I didn't think any measurement was necessary. I still don't. I don't believe there is anything more the fuse is supposed to do than protect my carver amp from voltage/amperage spikes, which it did. Therefore, again, nothing to measure. Had I heard a difference or thought I heard a difference, I would have investigated further. So, I'm hopeful that the fuses in my current amp, DAC and speakers will provide the same level of protection if and when needed. 

@tommylion
Exactly my point, well said.
Its my money and if I am happy with the results from it then so be it.
As I have said many many times, I am not here to persuade anybody to buy fuses, just honestly reporting my listening conclusions.
End of story!

tommylion - ....It is patently ridiculous to say that I can't trust my own ears to tell me whether or not a particular change in my system makes a positive difference in my enjoyment of music.

You're entirely correct. I'm certainly *not* saying you can't or shouldn't trust your own ears. That said, wouldn't you trust your own ears even more so if you heard whatever it is that makes a positive difference, after you've subjected yourself to a blind test and drew the same conclusions? In this context, I'm speaking of a simple blind test, for your own edification. Reason I ask is I've read a lot of posts where once someone hears something sighted, they no longer hear the same thing non-sighted.

I have all the respect in the world for those who have tried a fuse or 3 in their system and believed they heard no change, at least they gave it a shot.
Conversely I have zero respect for those who firmly grasp an abacus in one hand and slide rule in the other and state its just impossible for a fuse to make any sonic difference.

Was it not that type of thinking that said man would never fly?

Good night all.

uberwaltz
Conversely I have zero respect for those who firmly grasp an abacus in one hand and slide rule in the other and state its just impossible for a fuse to make any sonic difference.

Was it not that type of thinking that said man would never fly?

Good night all.

Really??
"I have zero respect for those who firmly grasp an abacus in one hand and slide rule in the other"

I think the Wright Brothers would have zero respect for you and your fuse.
http://silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1903-Wright-Flyer-Blueprints-Free-Download1-740x573....

Cheers George

I can respect someone who says “I don't know for sure if it makes a difference or not, but I'm not going to try it because I don't see enough probability that it will work.” I have little regard for those who “know” that it cannot possibly work without ever trying it.

So I would like to see the evidence you mention. And of course, even if there is a variation, the question remains open as to whether it amounted to an audible difference, and if the test for this was sighted...well...that just keeps it in the realm of problematic that I’m talking about.

I missed addressing this one. I have no evidence. It's from further up in this thread. Someone else ran it but I do see that you've already discounted the entire thing due to it's being conducted and evaluated by the same person since it was "sighted". 

Oh, for the days of the one eyed ruler in the kingdom of the blind.

I believe lots of people can do the kind of testing mentioned and it would be easy for you to find someone who can accommodate you. I'm not adept at that kind of thing. I do trust my ears enough to not bother.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonnoise,

I’ve gone back several pages. Haven’t found the link yet but have noticed the test has already come in for some sensible sounding skepticism and critique by other members. I’ll find the link when I have more time.

And, you seem to forget that Paul McGowan had no idea what his friend was replacing as he put the new fuse in and took it out. All he heard was the sound getting better, then worse, then better, then worse. It was only afterwards, that his friend told him all he did was replace the fuse.

Nope, I didn’t forget that. You are, like many audiophiles, under a misapprehension about how bias works. Bias doesn’t operate only in one sense - only hearing a difference if you think there will be a difference. It happens even if you don’t expect to hear a difference. Why? Because even if you *think* you are comparing one thing to another even that can produce false results. This is why you can tell someone to judge between cable A and cable B, and even if you don’t even actually switch cables (only ever play cable A), people will often enough still report hearing a "difference" when you "switch."
(And this is one reason why in blind testing you randomize switching - and you can see this effect show up in the scoring of cable differences).

I experienced this myself several times, thinking I was hearing sonic differences that I didn’t expect to hear when I switched something in my system - e.g. an AC cable, a digital server, etc. But blind testing showed I couldn’t in fact actually note any difference once I didn’t know which was playing.

This is why the very common refrain "I wasn’t expecting a difference, but I experienced it anyway, so it COULDN’T have been placebo/bias effect" simply gets things wrong. But it’s a pervasive myth nonetheless.

@tommylion,

Is there anything more subjective than one’s personal perception of, response to, and enjoyment of music? Given that, it makes perfect sense to evaluate the equipment used to reproduce music for one’s own enjoyment in a subjective manner.

You are mixing up two subjects: the subjective evaluation of music with objective facts or claims about what is audible or not. What you can or can’t hear is an objective fact. That’s why we have things like "hearing tests." You can claim you swoon to the sound of a 19K tone, but if you can’t identify when a 19K tone is playing in a blind hearing test, you can’t hear it.

Also, subjective opinions, emotional reactions, preferences etc can also be studied: they are every day.

You can even in principle (and in practice) find out if you even have an accurate grasp of YOUR OWN preferences. For instance, if you think you tend to like the sound of X speaker design over Y speaker design, you can do a blind test to see if, in fact, listening only to the sound, you actually end up picking X speaker as more preferable. People have often enough been surprised in such tests (see the work of Floyd Toole and others...)

Cheers.

I can respect someone who says “I don't know for sure if it makes a difference or not, but I'm not going to try it because I don't see enough probability that it will work.” I have little regard for those who “know” that it cannot possibly work without ever trying it.

And those with technical knowledge have little regard for someone who's majority of posts are to do with "snake oil" tweaks and has who has no technical knowledge, and doesn't seem to think it matters.

Cheers George 

prof,

When I try something I listen, over the long run, to hear how and if it differs, and in which ways. It takes time to ascertain in some respects and is quite obvious in others. There's no expectation as in I know I'm going to hear something different. I let it sink it, like most things in life.

Nothing is on the line except my listening tastes. I know, by now, what to listen for (as in which areas have eluded me) and which areas need to be tamed.

I don't know where some people get the notion that anything you hear is immediately suspect and to be doubted, that it has to be tested, double tested, blind tested, done many times over by groups of people who will never come to consensus on the matter. Too many tests and too many people introduce too many variables. That's crazy talk, in my world.

For anyone out of left field to come into my world and tell me I can't possibly trust what I hear gives me the creeps. Plain and simple. I think I've been more than tolerant on the matter.

My senses have served me well all my life. I've only encountered such animus when discussing politics or religion. All this negativity in audio has been a recent phenomenon for me, relatively speaking, and I've only witnessed it hear on forums and sites like this one. 

People I know stay the hell away from places like this for that very reason. Passion is one thing. Zealotry is another. Mix in the current trend for tribalism and there's really no going back. It's going to get worse. That old genie is not going back into the bottle. 

Don't take this the wrong way but do enjoy your Quixotic quest as you try to save folk from themselves. I don't need convincing as there's always that 30 day policy to return something if it doesn't work out for me. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise

I think your posts are pretty representative of what is so often termed the "subjectivist" side of not only audio, but any number of hobbies or pursuits. It’s an incredible confidence in your own subjective assessments, despite all the evidence we have for how bias works.

It IS understandable. I get it. Our own experience is the primary way we navigate the world. If we can’t rely on our experience...what can we rely on, right?

Problem is, life just isn’t that easy. Science was a long, hard won education for humanity, to get people willing to challenge their own perception and experiences, test them, put them up for scrutiny, and accept when they are wrong. It’s really hard to do, and most people just don’t want to, especially when a particular set of experiences is really pleasurable, or meaningful...like the buzz of a new piece of gear making an "improvement" to your system.

For anyone out of left field to come into my world and tell me I can’t possibly trust what I hear gives me the creeps. Plain and simple.

That’s only because you don’t seem to understand, or care about, the problems of human bias. What in the world is "creepy" about simply admitting you are fallible?

My son was in a trial for a new drug to treat peanut allergies. It gathered over 500 people who were severely allergic to peanuts to be part of the study. The study was run in the "gold standard" way, double blind, with a control group on a placebo, the others getting the "real drug." The drug consisted of ever increasing amounts of peanut protein to get the allergic person’s system more and more tolerant to peanut protein over time. The control/placebo group got mere flour that looked exactly the same. Again...neither the doctors nor the subjects ever knew if they were getting a placebo or the real peanut protein.

The study finished after 6 months and blood/skin tests were taken to measure all the immune markers for allergy, and compared to the tests taken before the subjects began the study. It was a huge success. Those like my son who were on the real peanut protein showed huge differences in peanut tolerance at the end of the study. Where once the teeniest bit of peanut put him in the hospital, now he was eating a peanut a day no problem.

But here’s the thing. During the study, everyone had a symptom diary and reported into the clinic every two weeks for updosing. Numerous subjects on the placebo ALSO reported similar symptoms to those who were actually taking the peanut dose: scratchy throat, itching, stomach upset, nausea, etc. In fact, during the study the clinic doctors would try to guess who was on placebo and who was on peanut protein and the kept track of their guesses, inferring from the reports of symptoms among the study group. It turned out they were wrong 50 percent of the time! Almost always simply guessing!

In other words, the power of placebo and expectation etc is so strong that merely taking what people THOUGHT was something they were allergic to, or even COULD be taking, was enough to bring on subjective symptoms.

This is why studies are run the way they are, with the controls of the doctors not knowing who is on the drug (so they don’t influence the outcome) and the patients don’t know, with a placebo control group.
Then at the end if they are evaluating what type of symptoms to expect from this treatment (and results) they results of the real drug effects can rise above the "noise" of the effects shared between the placebo and non-placebo group. It helps them discern what are "real" effects from the drug from the merely subjective effects that come from simply taking a new pill, or thinking you are taking the drug. If they only gave the drug to everyone, they would not know to what degree symptoms from the treatment were likely psychological expectation brought on simply by being given a pill, vs physical symptoms actually caused by the drug. THAT’s why it’s so important to control for human bias when you really want to understand what is going on.

So my question to you is: do you think science has got all this stuff wrong? That all these strenuous attempts to control for variables is wasted time and they should just give a drug and ask someone if they feel better? Would you, if you were in the study say "I don’t need all those controls. We can trust my subjective reports for accuracy?"

I’d like to know your answer, though I’m first going with the presumption that you actually accept the validity of the scientific method.

The question left then is: why in the world do you think bias is going to be a big problem that requires controlling for in so many areas of human study...but somehow YOU and other audiophiles are immune to it, and can simply trust your subjective impressions as veridical and accurate?Why this strange exception for audio...as if bias effects wouldn’t operate in that domain of our perception?  (It does, it’s provable).

Hearing tests are a form of blind testing what range of tones you can hear.  Would you actually dispute the results of your hearing test and say "I don't care what you say, I believe I can hear above 20 Hz and so that's a fact!" ?

As I said, most people accept science...for other people. But if it comes to putting their own subjective experiences under the microscope, suddenly science doesn’t apply to them and "You can’t tell me I can’t trust my own perception!"

And should anyone point out that, sorry, you, me, all of us are fallible in our perception then it’s the person pointing this out who gets shouted down and often insulted. People are just so emotionally attached to their own subjectivity...that’s what you get.

Very well put prof, I doffs me hat to ya.
And to Ralph’s (Atmasphere) saying of "expectation bias"

Cheers George

George
I was trying hard to ignore you but...
If you are going to insist in quoting me then do so IN FULL, not just taking a small section of my post which put of context with the rest of the post changes its meaning entirely.
You know EXACTLY what I am talking about.
You should really know better than to resort to low down underhand tricks like that.
Does it make you feel better to pull such stunts?

Says all I need to know about you......

And yes I will not be surprised if this post is removed once George sees it and spits his dummy out over being called out.