The new Synergistic Research BLUE fuses ....
uberwaltz Forget Geoff’s post, look at your own if you understand what you just said. This is the sort of comment that makes anyone with even the slightest tech knowledge, shake their head in wonderment, that these fuser’s even know where the on-button is and are recommending fuses. Cheers George |
folkfreak uberwaltz If you knew anything of electronic engineering, you would not have asked this question, as it's impossible to do this test with a fuse. Cheers George |
Testing and getting a different result because of the fuse, nothing else! Changing the fuse is like any other change in the power setup like a cord or conditionerAnd this is not correct, as a mains cord because of it ’s construction has very different set of parameters to it’s length, it has resistance, capacitance and inductance. A mains fuse as none of these, save for "maybe" a very minute (milli-ohm) amount of resistance, which means nothing. And could be regarded as differing ambient temperature when measured as Ralph or Al pointed out very early in this thread, when the milli-ohm resistance measurements were quoted as being "the reason for the massive sound quality improvements". Cheers George |
georgehifi wrote, “Changing the fuse is like any other change in the power setup like a cord or conditioner And this is not correct, as a mains cord because of it ’s construction has very different set of parameters to it’s length, it has resistance, capacitance and inductance. A mains fuse as none of these, save for "maybe" a very minute (milli-ohm) amount of resistance, which means nothing. And could be regarded as differing ambient temperature when measured as Ralph or Al pointed out very early in this thread, when the milli-ohm resistance measurements were quoted as being "the reason for the massive sound quality improvements".” >>>>Sorry, George, you and Al and Ralph are incorrect. Not even close! Nobody, especially HiFi Tuning, ever claimed the resistance measurements provided in the Data Sheets are responsible for the relatively large changes in sound observed by listeners. In fact, they say the OPPOSITE. Hel-loo! If any of you had ever bothered to read the HiFi Tuning data sheets, you would have seen that HiFi Tuning states UP FRONT that the very small measured differences in resistance do not (rpt not) account for changes in sound quality from fuse to fuse and from direction to direction they heard. So, obviously there must be other (unknown) factors are involved here besides resistance. And as I’ve oft stated, the HiFi Tuning Data Sheets resistance measurements PROVE that fuses are NOT symmetrical as naysayers would have us believe. And more to the point - the small resistance differences do not prove that large differences cannot be heard. To whit, from the HiFi Tuning Data Sheets, ”The measurements done so far showed some measurable differences between fuse, but didn ́t explain completely the sonic differences between fuses. One way to look at these phenomenon’s is, that music, containing many pulses can be limited by the electronics being in the reproduction chain. Fuses with better contact material (e.g. no corrosion) and overall better make will limit these pulses less. Another way to look at the problem is: like any wire or resistor fuses produce some thermal broadband noise. That noise depends mostly of the material used. The thermal increase of noise was measured at a current of 0,1 Amp. DC and the increase is given in dB.” |
To set the record straight, I have not said that the resistance differences between fuses that are reported in HFT’s paper are necessarily insignificant. In fact I recently said in my lengthy post in this thread dated 4-4-2018 that: I suspect that small differences in voltage drops resulting from small differences in resistance are probably marginally significant in at least **some** applications. For example, perhaps those differences result in audibly significant changes in the filament voltages supplied to some tubes, in designs in which those voltages are not internally regulated.I have also expressed the belief in that post and others that **fluctuations** in resistance, in applications where the amount of current being conducted by the fuse fluctuates significantly, might have audible consequences. Regarding **directionality,** however, in various prior fuse-related threads, such as in the SR Red fuse thread on 10-7-2016, I have stated the firm belief that: Regarding the measurements described in the HFT paper ... which purport to support the notion of fuse directionality:I have also expressed support for the explanation Ralph has provided for fuse directionality, which while recognizing the legitimacy of the experiences that have been reported does not mean that fuses have any intrinsic directional properties. Finally, regarding HFT’s measurements of thermal noise which Geoff referred to above, I said as follows in the "Fuses That Matter" thread on 5-14-2012: The numbers presented for thermal noise measurements are so infinitesimal as to be laughable, being a fraction of a millionth of a volt in nearly all cases, including the standard glass fuse (on a 120 volt waveform no less, or perhaps it is even 240 volts!). A modest length of wire will pick up more noise than that from AM and FM radio signals that are passing through the air. And of course that noise level will be swamped by the noise produced by the parts and circuitry in the components, and the noise that will be present on the incoming AC (even if a power conditioner or regenerator is used). And that is all not to mention that the millionth of a volt of noise will be greatly reduced by filtering and noise rejection that will occur in the power supply and other circuitry of the component. Regards, -- Al |
Not that it will change anyone’s mind but for the record I am with Al’s analysis of fuses 100%. Given that and the fact that I tried a highly touted Synergistic fuse and found no clear significant difference, I will stick with more popular, high quality less expensive and better spec’ed fuses when needed. If someone thinks a $100+ fuse that some say will make a big difference, but that has little published technical basis to support that, is a good investment in their system, then more power to ya. The red fuse OP sent me to try is still around as a spare if needed. |
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If I understand the test proposed correctly, it certainly could be done technically. The problem with it would be the same as is the problem when humans do a comparison, attributing differences to cause. There would undoubtedly be differences at least to some small degree. It would not be valid to assume the only thing that is different is the fuse since the performance of any system at two different times is bound to vary to some degree for various reasons. If controlled properly, the results would indicate the magnitude of difference that the fuse alone could possibly produce, but there is no way to assure that. If tested repeatedly and that magnitude was repeatedly large and consistently measurable, that would support the notion that a fuse change can make a major difference. Otherwise not. Furthermore, assuming a significant difference is detected, the next task would be to determine in what ways and how that would be heard. Determining which sounds in fact "better" would be a further challenge. But at least there would be some actual technical data to base a claim on rather than just the individual opinions and observations of a few. Then you still have the issue of if the change observed in one system occurs similarly in others. Most likely not, so the results are really only useful for the actual cases tested. |
Calm down, mapman. If you don’t understand why your negative test results should be thrown out just say you don’t understand. No need to blow a head gasket. Just to keep everyone up to date the score is approximateky 75,000 positive to 10 for the negative Nellies. I know, but who’s counting, right? 😬 See, mapman, that’s funny, no? |
Wait a minute. Those who rely on measurements alone as the final word on anything are now saying that should a fuse change show a difference in a measurement, that the difference can't be solely attributed to the fuse? That the difference can not be determined to be enough to be heard? That the difference has to be of a large enough nature to be valid? That the difference cannot be determined to be better? The test cited showed a difference in what could be heard. It was small but it could be heard. It could be determined to be better since that difference has to be folded back into the file to be appreciated. The sum is greater than the parts. It shows a distinct difference, no matter the size. That is what is important. Anyone could reasonably come to the conclusion that having more info would be an improvement. There are now more clues to enhance the performance. There were too many sophistic caveats weaved into that argument, which would come handy in a kangaroo court setting, but not in audio, where incremental improvements are the norm, and to be expected. All the best, Nonoise |
I believe that the main point Mapman was making about attribution of differences that may be measured in the proposed test was simply that the measurement and comparison process should be repeated multiple times. That would presumably eliminate the possibilities that the measured differences, if any, are the result of imprecision or lack of repeatability in the test hardware and/or software itself, or are the result of extraneous variables such as differences in the warmup state of the equipment. That makes a lot of sense to me, especially when the measured differences can be expected to be small. Regards, -- Al |
almarg 7,946 posts 04-12-2018 1:19pm I believe that the main point Mapman was making about attribution of differences that may be measured in the proposed test was simply that the measurement and comparison process should be repeated multiple times. That would presumably eliminate the possibilities that the measured differences, if any, are the result of imprecision or lack of repeatability in the test hardware and/or software itself, or are the result of extraneous variables such as differences in the warmup state of the equipment. That makes a lot of sense to me, especially when the measured differences can be expected to be small. Actually, repeating the test doesn’t necessary make it more valid. The same mistakes that affect the first one, assuming there are any mistakes, would affect the rest of them. That’s why “repeatability” means having a totally different test and test conductor. That should be pretty obvious. Otherwise unscrupulous or uncareful test conductors - even careful test conductors - could have unfortunate consequences. Mistakes in a system may be beyond the control of the test conductor. So, any test result is only a single data point. It has little meaning if the test results are negative because - as has been pointed out a number of times - there are many reasons why a test might fail to show differences, or audibility or wherever was being tested when in fact there are. |
In response to clearthink…Obviously I know wires, tubes, et al have easily explainable benefits, and I hear those...it's the utter lack of any sort of explaining how or why designers decided that $2 fuses are inadequate, although the cheap fuses might be working well and your rig sounds fine. Does replacing an inexpensive half inch passive wire (meaning it's just wire that melts if needed) in a glass tube with a somehow improved half inch tiny wire in a glass or ceramic tube with graphene coating or special end caps or tesla coil jolting providing 75 times the benefit of the standard fuse? Did the thousands of special fuse purchasers hear a difference or just assume there would be one because they're reading hyperbolic posts? Can't say, anymore than anyone can say the thousands of people not buying them are against improving their rig. Many supporters of Blue Fuses already are using tweaks that are questionable as to their efficacy, and seem to be bound to support any imaginary tweak that comes along…and in the case of Blue Fuses there remains no explanation as to how or why they might improve sound. |
Once the IAEA stepped in and forbade the use of certain metals in audio tubes, the sound changed for the worse. Decades of refinement and exacting attention to specs helped some but the sound of those tubes are gone forever, unless you source out NOS stock. But it's just wire guys, right? So with tubes, it's just getters, plates, heaters and the like and they're so small that they can be made out of anything remotely similar, right? Just do it on the cheap. It still functions within specs, doesn't it? All the best, Nonoise |
The results should be reproducible. I.e. produced INDEPENDENTLY by another person or persons on a different system(s). Ideally, many other INDEPENDENT persons and systems. This reproducibility helps minimize the affect of any errors on the part of persons conducting the test, test system and anything else that could produce erroneous results. |
The differences my friends and I have heard in the directionality of SR fuses is tantamount to the differences heard in equipment with polarized A/C plugs (namely older CD players). Directionality of insertion is quite obvious. I have not done a scientific survey of why that exists, only that it is audibly significant (VERY). |
GK that is absolutely correct. The problem is your previous stated desire to throw out the data points that you don’t like, joking or not. All data points are subject to bias like the expectation bias possible with all those paying a huge premium for a fuse or the bias of those with a business association with the vendor who might also be getting product to eval for free or at a significant discount. Also a random sample of data points is needed to draw any conclusion. There is nothing to establish that the sample of data points represented by poster views on a thread like this is random or large enough to be representative of the general population. Your theory is those who report here to have heard a worthwhile difference is the norm and those who do not are outliers. That’s true perhaps but only within the context of this thread. Also you appear to claim knowledge of some larger scoped study involving thousands of users. Please provide a reference to that if so. |
Look, mapman, if you want to argue the least you could do is not put words in my mouth. I did not say throw out all the data points I don’t like. I said throw away the handful of negative results when there are 75,000 positive results worldwide for ALL FUSES since they first came out. You know, from satisfied users. See the difference? The handful of negative results are outliers. You happen to be one of the very few who reported negative results, when we limit the results to those on this forum. There was you and Wolfman. Did I miss anybody? Besides, as I said Don’t take it so so personally. 😬 But please don’t try to tell the rest of us Fuses don’t work or that we can’t hear. |
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fleschler195 posts04-13-2018 5:16amThe differences my friends and I have heard in the directionality of SR fuses is tantamount to the differences heard in equipment with polarized A/C plugs (namely older CD players). Directionality of insertion is quite obvious. I have not done a scientific survey of why that exists, only that it is audibly significant (VERY). Then your not letting the EE technical side function very well, think about it?? If you reverse the two pin figure 8 mains plug on those early CD players what are you doing?? One way your sending active to the primary winding of the transformer that may start on the outside and then neutral (which is in Australia is at earth potential) goes goes to the inner part of the transformer. Then if you reversed that CD’s figure 8 mains plug the opposite happens. Of course there is some difference in the field generated around the transformer! THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH A FUSE DIRECTION CHANGE!!!! And it pure "snake oil" to say it does. Cheers George |
"Snake Oil" that’s all fuse direction change is. You "awesome foursome" believe the "snake oil" about fuses and also I see the other "snake oil" product, Synergistic Research HFT's Cheers George |
I’m afraid George and some others are giving real skeptics a bad name. You know what real skeptics are, they are intellectually honest people who are genuinely curious and will actually try to get the bottom of things, Fuses or whatever. A real skeptic is able to weigh all the evidence and may come to change his mind based on the evidence. The spectacle we’re witnessing here, by contrast, has no relation to real skepticism. It’s pseudo skepticism and bullying in its pure state. It’s minds that are made up. The pseudo skeptics actually assume an outcome of a test BEFORE the test even takes place. Hel-loo! In fact, if I can be so bold, some of these guys even make pseudo skeptics look bad. Other naysayers here must be cringing. Come on, people! |
Once again the "reporters" have been busy. But the fact is that mains fuses have no difference in any character of sound when they are in a AC mains path as that mains changes it's direction 60 x a second. So any ***** can see, that direction changing of a fuse is wishful thinking, and after spending $150 on a $2 fuse, as Ralph (Atmasphere) has so aptly name it, it's "Expectation Bias" Cheers George |
