@mapman Ah I see. A clever label it would seem for one who can apparently read other’s minds to place on others if they do not drink their kool aid! I see how that works! No wonder GK loves that term so much! I did not know we had mind reader’s in these parts! Very mystical! Much like fancy fuses themselves.
Do you have reading comprehension problems? You obviously have a lurid imagination. The true pseudo-skeptics in this thread have stated that there is a zero percent chance that audiophile fuse can make a difference, and they have no desire to try one. |
tel555 - ...This thread is now in its death throes..... Peace out. @tel555 I have good reason to believe you know nothing about peace. Interesting how this thread and Bob Dylan continue to have something in common. "You know sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace" |
uberwaltz - Question for anybody? Does the OPPO udp205 contain an internal fuse at all? If so do we know the size?
Hi uberwaltz. I have an Oppo 205, but do not know the answer to your question. That said, I can tell you that Oppo support is very helpful and forthcoming. Perhaps they can answer your question. 🙂 |
gdhal, stop posting crap for the sake of posting crap. Get diagnosed. I hope you read this before you get it deleted. Sad. |
^Read. And you're correct, it is sad. |
If religious discussions were allowed here, I'd ask the question: Is "religion" and "spirituality" the same thing? But, its not allowed, so I won't ask the question.
Frank |
This has been a revealing thread! I don’t think I’ve ever before seen some audiophiles make such an explicit association between the adherence to subjectivity in this hobby and religious belief.
The hymns have been sung, the hands clasped, the wagons of Faith circled.
So I offer a view from the other side.
Ivan’s post was simply ludicrous.
It was, as is so often the case, a feigned pious humility leveraged to disparage the character of other people. As if simply intoning one is a Christian is a sign of humility, while in fact the whole thrust of the post puts himself on a pedestal above the poor lost souls he’s slagging.
I have voiced some skepticism about tweaks like the fuses, and have given my reasons. But nowhere have I made any close-minded absolutist claims like "they don’t or can’t make a difference," nor have I told anyone to go blind testing whatever they buy, as I don’t do that myself. As I’ve said to each his own. I’ve explained that I come to my skepticism also based on acquaintance with the fallibility of my own perception (as revealed when I’ve done blind tests). Which mirrors the fallibility well documented by scientific studies of human bias. I’m of course willing to drop my doubts with better evidence.
This is about as anti absolutist or dogmatic as one could get.
But for giving the reasons for my own doubts...the response has been so often to cast aspersion on my character, rather than directly interact with my arguments.
Ivan’s post was simply a ridiculous strawman dragged through the mud.
People who voice their skepticism about the things he believes are depicted, from his enlightened perch, as being childish, lost souls, wallowing in the mud, raging and demanding, selfish (with even thinly veiled allusions to the damned).
Get over yourself, Ivan.
I’m not selfishly "demanding" anyone do anything. Asking for good evidence for a claim isn’t selfish or a sin (except perhaps in your faith)...in normal life, it’s being sensible and adult, rather than just believing any claim that comes along no matter how much enthusiasm is behind it.
You claim that you are open to seeking the truth. What exactly have I said that was not consonant with seeking the truth? I have said the sonic benefits of fuses (and AC cords) were a subject of controversy, vs a widely accepted phenomenon. That’s true. When the inevitable anecdotes are given - "I heard a difference" - I have pointed out that there are variables in there. We humans have all sorts of biases that can influence the results, which means we can, and often are, mistaken in our subjective assessments (e.g. in audio, hear changes when no changes are there). This is a well documented TRUTH about human perception. Testable by anyone here.
If you are, as you claim, about seeking truth...exactly how are you accounting for the truths about human bias in your own assessments? If you reject the data on human bias, please don’t tell me you are about truth. But if you accept it, then my bringing it in to the discussion IS caring about truth. If you KNOW the ways you may be mistaken due to bias effects but don’t care...why would YOU get to portray yourself as more interested in truth than the "skeptic" who worries about his own and other’s bias? For my part, to the degree I don’t bother controlling for bias in my own assessments, I at least mitigate my own claims and confidence about the results. How is that NOT being careful about the truth?
But instead of actually dealing with the reasoning I’ve given, you make it easy on yourself using religious analogy to paint a completely false characterization and slag folks like me as lost, selfish children.
This isn’t "beautiful" or insightful. It’s cowardly and uncharitable, and should be beneath any mature adult.
Those of us who have voiced skepticism about certain elements of high end audio are just as passionate about this hobby as you are. We just happen to have our own viewpoint to express.
Those of you patting Ivan and yourselves on the back for his complete strawmanning and fake pious humility - with "amens," - I hope you can pause for a moment and re-consider the wisdom of falling in line with that type of lazy character attack. Wrapping insults in the warm quilt of "faith-talk" shouldn’t so easily blind you to what was actually going on.
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prof ...
Interesting that you took Ivan's post personally. I don't believe he was attacking you. I read through his post and didn't find your name mentioned even once. Please reread Ivan's post.
For what its worth, I value both your's and Ivan's posts. You both have a beautiful way with words. As an avid reader, I admire that talent. greatly.
What Ivan called a "road," I always referred to as a narrow pathway.
"What is hidden from the most learned is revealed to mere children."
Frank |
Hi oregonpap.
The thing is I've obviously been one of the more prominent skeptics in the last part of this thread. If ivan did not mean to impune me as well, he could have been gracious enough to do so.
Instead he produced a lazy post that splattered mud everywhere.
A lot of people who produce those type of insulting posts use and excuse like "Hey, I wasn't naming anyone...and if YOU responded I guess you must think it's about yourself, so that's on you!"
(I would not be surprised to see this follow up...)
But that is essentially extending an already trolling style of posting.
It's like walking in to a party and saying "I just want to everyone here to know I think *some* of you have appalling taste in clothing!"
It of course leaves people wondering if they are being targeted. The idea that "well, you'd know if you were the target of the insult if you fit the description" is of course a silly counter reply, because OF COURSE no one thinks they fit the description of the insult. So you still have to wonder WHO EXACTLY the person has in mind. Essentially the person making this type of insult couches it as not directed at anyone in particular as if he's not being confrontational, but what he's doing is actually just splattering the mud of insult in every direction to see what sticks. And that is actually trollish.
So even if ivan didn't have me in mind, he's nonetheless taking the same tact in insulting others who voice skepticism - lazily characterizing them without directly engaging in anyone's argument to justify his claims.
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As I said before
prof
"
If you go back to the OP’s first post and see the differences a "black" fuse did, them maybe multiples into all the equipment, then after that the massive improvements the "blue" does over the "black" then the massive improvements multiple "blues" do. You’ve got to think to your self, that system of his must of sounded like a real t**d before any of these boutique $150 fuses came along. Cheers George
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Just so you know, I'm an atheist. I appreciated Ivan's post because it's well written and parallels some of what I feel. I don't see it as the kind of attack it's being made out to be, rather an observation on how he sees things, which everyone here, myself included, does.
If someone directs a rebuttal expressly at me, I'll answer in kind. But just to give voice to something that's hard to pin down shouldn't anger anyone. We're all reaching to find the words to express ourselves.
If it should hit close to home, maybe some introspection is in order. A nerve can be struck, but it doesn't mean it's expressly directed at you.
All the best,
Nonoise
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From wiki page on psedoskepticism:
In 1987, Marcello Truzzi revived the term (pseodoskepticism) specifically for arguments which use scientific-sounding language to disparage or refute given beliefs, theories, or claims, but which in fact fail to follow the precepts of conventional scientific skepticism. He argued that scientific skepticism is agnostic to new ideas, making no claims about them but waiting for them to satisfy a burden of proof before granting them validity. Pseudoskepticism, by contrast, involves "negative hypotheses"—theoretical assertions that some belief, theory, or claim is factually wrong—without satisfying the burden of proof that such negative theoretical assertions would require.[5][6][7][8]
[your humble scribe’s insert)] Note: Marcello Truzzi (September 6, 1935 – February 2, 2003) was a professor of sociology at New College of Florida and later at Eastern Michigan University, founding co-chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a founder of the Society for Scientific Exploration,[1] and director for the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research.]
Truzzi attributed the following characteristics to pseudoskeptics:[5]
Denying, when only doubt has been established
Double standards in the application of criticism
The tendency to discredit rather than investigate
Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
Suggesting that unconvincing evidence provides grounds for completely dismissing a claim
He characterized true skepticism as:[5]
Acceptance of doubt when neither assertion nor denial has been established
No burden of proof to take an agnostic position
Agreement that the corpus of established knowledge must be based on what is proved, but recognising its incompleteness
Even-handedness in requirement for proofs, whatever their implication
Accepting that a failure of a proof in itself proves nothing
Continuing examination of the results of experiments even when flaws are found
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nonoise,
He painted skeptics as selfish demanding children who bog down conversations with "demands for proof!" and himself and those like him as enlightened and charitable.
It’s a b.s. characterization. His characterization won’t map on to what I’ve written. Nor have I seen other skeptics demanding PROOF but only better evidence.And the charitable characterization he gives himself doesn’t map to his own post, or to many of the responses against skeptics in this thread either.
If he wants to engage the reasons someone else has for another view, let him do it. But just tossing out barely-veiled insults without showing they are warranted at all is poor form. It's just dismissing someone's position with insult, without doing the work to justify his claims.
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prof,
He did say it struck a nerve when I mentioned 'pious', or at least piqued his interest. I just give him the benefit of the doubt of simply venting after reading this long thread before chiming in.
Maybe on a different day it would have struck me the wrong way and got my hackles up but today it didn't. Somedays my thin skin can get really thick.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I hear you there, nonoise.
Peace out :-)
|
So now its a battle of the pious versus the pseudo-skeptics. Like that has never happened before. Could these fuses be the work of the devil?
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Mapman
I do believe that the devil is in the details
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Hmmm well GK does sound like a pseudo-skeptic when it comes to the subject of fuse skeptics. No wonder he knows so much about pseudo-skeptics. Oh well.... |
georgehifi sez: - "You’ve got to think to your self, that system of his must of sounded like a real t**d before any of these boutique $150 fuses came along."
Sorry to disappoint you George, but the system sounded better than it ever did prior to getting involved with SR fuses and Tim Mrock’s TC. With the addition of these two tweaks, the system sounds as good, if not better than any audio system in my experience. The transparency, 3-D effects, the correct sound of actual instruments and voices are right up there with what is considered to be really high end systems. Does it play really huge like systems featuring Wilson’s top of the line speakers? Nope ... but then, its a matter of scale. Besides, saxophones aren’t ten feet tall in real life. For the life of me George, I can’t understand your purpose in your negative posts. I’ll ask for the umpteenth time ... what is your intent??? Frank |
As I said before prof
" If you go back to the OP’s first post and see the differences a "black" fuse did, them maybe multiples into all the equipment, then after that the massive improvements the "blue" does over the "black" then the massive improvements multiple "blues" do.
You’ve got to think to your self, that system of his must of sounded like a real t**d before any of these boutique $150 fuses came along.
Cheers George Thats just mean spirited and a cheap shot even for you....... |
He's also seems to be off on a tangent. As the last back and forth went through it's motions, he chimed in from out in left field.
|
When someone keeps saying for each consecutive "snake oil" fuse addition, that the sound each time is so good it beggars belief, you’ve got to say to your self what did it sound like before all these magnificent changes if in fact there were any????
Cheers George
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Geoff, thanks for posting the
pseudoskepticism dissertation. It seems old
Marcello had a soft spot for the scientific agnostic (a.k.a. skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic, unbeliever, nonbeliever, rationalist).
Are you suggesting a new category here on the SA Blue thread or are none of the
pseudoskeptics qualified to ascend to the level of a
scientific skeptic?
BTW, I gotta ask, were you previously familiar with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), based on their study of the Teleportation Tweak? |
Georgehifi sez: - "When someone keeps saying for each consecutive "snake oil" fuse addition, that the sound each time is so good it beggars belief, you’ve got to say to your self what did it sound like before all these magnificent changes if in fact there were any????"
To be exact George ... the system sounded great before I started fooling with after market fuses. With each upgrade in fuses the sound got better. Therefore, my enthusiasm with each upgrade, and therefore my compulsion to share the experience with others. . Again George ... state your intent here. Thanks ... Frank
|
Could it be possible that a members system is so unresolving and sounds like a huge t*#d that it is beyond saving even with SR blue fuses....
You gotta wonder....... |
Marcello Truzzi would be a fine name for a line of audio equipment. 👍 |
When someone keeps saying for each consecutive "snake oil" fuse addition, that the sound each time is so good it beggars belief, you’ve got to say to your self what did it sound like before all these magnificent changes if in fact there were any????
Cheers George
Ok if you must, forget the system and what it must of sounded like before all these awe inspiring fuse improvements one on top of another. One can also ask, can this view of this person be believed. As these types of multiple magnificent improvements type statements for each consecutive fuse addition, beggars belief. And really questions the credibility aspect. BTW this is the only thread, I frequent that is so toxic, all others there maybe disagreements, but they are quickly nullified, but not here. I’ve seen threads shut down for far less angst between members than what going on here, I wonder why?? This one did get shut down a couple of days ago, but it’s the first one I’ve seen reopened?? Cheers George |
If you find it so toxic you are more than welcome to push that little button labelled "unfollow discussion"......
Could well coincide with a significant reduction in toxicity levels....... |
Could well coincide with a significant reduction in toxicity levels....... Doubt that very much as it’s growing. And good for those and the new ones trying to keep it honest for the few non technical that may get burnt paying $150 for a $2 fuse. Cheers George |
BTW this is the only thread, I frequent that is so toxic, all others there maybe disagreements, but they are quickly nullified, but not here.
Could it be that no one here is bending to your will (such as it is)? Does nullified means agreeing with you? I ask because it's not going to happen. All the best, Nonoise |
Does nullified means agreeing with you?
No proven one way other the other, but here nothing is accepted from an Electronic engineering view point by the fusers, even though every part of the equipment is designed and tested using electronic laws and ee maths. You fusers think you know better. But you have nothing but your expectation bias to go with and no cred as even SR won't back you. Cheers George |
Georgehifi sez: - But you have nothing but your expectation bias to go with and no cred as even SR won’t back you.
1. Ah ... but we do have something to go on ... our ears. 2. SR won’t back us? Hmm, care to elaborate? To toxic for ya George? Why not try to use calmer verbiage instead of "snake oil?" Especially since you haven’t experienced the product for yourself in your own system. Frank |
Fuses = Tonewood for electric guitars! |
Why not try to use calmer verbiage instead of "snake oil?"
It's known all over the world as "snake oil" It's a mains fuse that has AC on it, that changes 60 x a second, so for one how can it possibly be directional? 2, how can it effect the music signal "unless" it acts like a diode and tries to rectify the mains on one half of the cycle. But of course you wouldn't have understood a thing I just said. So "snake oil" and it's alternatives I'm afraid is all you understand.
Dennis Had director/founder of "Cary Audio", opinion on snake oil fuses ect. https://youtu.be/xLQsEeBKg1E?t=1791
Cheers George. |
Good morning Frank, don't feel bad The CEO of Moon Audio and his team of EE's do not seem to understand AC either! They spent countless hours addressing AC issues, vibration, magnetic fields, even worst they coated the underside of the lid with some SNAKE TAR GOOP, hey George, was that correct EE lingo? BTW their new 888 monos are only 200k +. Special magic internal wire, covered in carbon, oh my.
Aircraft aluminum, George why do they use that? Can you fly them maybe as well as listen to them? Wow now your talking!
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mitch2
Geoff, thanks for posting the pseudoskepticism dissertation. It seems old Marcello had a soft spot for the scientific agnostic (a.k.a. skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic, unbeliever, nonbeliever, rationalist).
Are you suggesting a new category here on the SA Blue thread or are none of the pseudoskeptics qualified to ascend to the level of a scientific skeptic?
BTW, I gotta ask, were you previously familiar with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), based on their study of the Teleportation Tweak?
>>> Maybe. 😬 I am loosely associated with this group,
The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) was a research program at Princeton University that studied parapsychology.[1] Established in 1979 by then Dean of Engineering Robert G. Jahn, PEAR closed in February 2007, being incorporated into the "International Consciousness Research Laboratories" (ICRL).[2] The program was controversial.[3] 😳
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@GK Thanks for your post on pseudo-skepticism. Much appreciated. @prof No, indeed I'm not trying to insult people.
"I have voiced some skepticism about tweaks like the fuses, and have given my reasons. But nowhere have I made any close-minded absolutist claims like "they don’t or can’t make a difference," nor have I told anyone to go blind testing whatever they buy, as I don’t do that myself. As I’ve said to each his own. I’ve explained that I come to my skepticism also based on acquaintance with the fallibility of my own perception (as revealed when I’ve done blind tests). Which mirrors the fallibility well documented by scientific studies of human bias. I’m of course willing to drop my doubts with better evidence."
Believe me, I'm perfectly fine with that. I have no problem with you or anyone else saying it.
"I’m not selfishly "demanding" anyone do anything. Asking for good evidence for a claim isn’t selfish or a sin (except perhaps in your faith)...in normal life, it’s being sensible and adult, rather than just believing any claim that comes along no matter how much enthusiasm is behind it."
Glad to hear it. I see no reason not to accept that premise at face value.
"He painted skeptics as selfish demanding children who bog down conversations with "demands for proof!" and himself and those like him as enlightened and charitable."
No! Not True! That would be a rather foolish thing for me, or anyone else I imagine, to seriously say. What I've had trouble with are those that say or act outright that they demand that someone help them, as if somehow they were being violated to the core, if you like. Not all skeptics are this way and, moreover, I don't find it so much a particular set of individuals that need to be labeled and blamed so much as a behavior that ought (in my view) to be avoided. And first and foremost the only real punitive measure I'm suggesting is that their (one) demand be ignored. This is not, nor does it need to be, a blame game. If it is then I will not play it. It's just that my own path may be different than yours...certainly philosophically. Everyone's path is different. And where I might tend to fall back on faith when the going gets a little tough for me, you might choose to fall back on the the things that restore you: your love of science, your love of the scientific method, your love of engineering, equipment, art, philosophy...whatever gets you through - but, my point being it's your Love of it that restores, yes?. I made a proclamation that was in line even with what I feel to be true on high with things that endure with me. The proclamation itself is not on high, just that I tried very hard to make it in line with all that as I know it. Just as you might do the same in the course of your audiophile journey, but according to your own beliefs. I would expect no more and no less. If my putting it in terms of my being a Christian bothers you, then I'm sorry, but being a Christian is not about entitlement and in any case these days we are, if anything, coming under increasing fire from many sides. I do not think that you would have the monopoly on being attacked or marginalized, nor did I see that what I was saying, and still am saying, attacks you. Nor was the fact itself that I am a person of faith my point, but rather that the nature of all that was inherently good as I see it...that I am not out to deal from a position of bad faith simply because I was voicing an objection to some repeated behavior in the forum. I hurl no insults. I can't always agree with everything going on, but I take some exception to those who insist on making demands...and no, if you're still wondering, a question, or a statement, or a suggestion is not a demand. A demand is a demand and that, and only that, is what truly irks me. A demand neither proves nor disproves, it just gets in the way of the proving or the disproving. |
roberjerman
Fuses = Tonewood for electric guitars!
Gong!!
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@geoffkait
>>> Maybe. 😬 I am loosely associated with this group Participant
or subject? 😨
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@oregonpapa
Thank you for that post.
"What Ivan called a 'road,' I always referred to as a narrow pathway.
I could have called it a path too if, for no other reason, that it can so often seem to us that we encounter so few others at any one time on the same part of the 'path' as us...and that we seldom ever seem to traverse it at anything other than at a slow walk. But, I guess I call it a 'road' since everyone who has ever lived and ever will is to travel down it.
One thing I know you'll agree: whoever built the road of life sure didn't intend for it to be a super highway, now did they? ;)
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mitch2
@geoffkait
“>>> Maybe. 😬 I am loosely associated with this group...”
Participant or subject? 😨
Not sure. 😳
Dealer. It’s kind of a long story. Let my word be a 🕯unto your feet. 👣
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Somebody: “Why not try to use calmer verbiage instead of "snake oil?"” To which georgehifi retorted, “It’s known all over the world as "snake oil"” >>>>>It’s known by that (derogatory) name because that’s what pseuo scientists and pseudoskeptics all over the world call anything that looks like Woo. Duh! Then georgehifi wrote, “It’s a mains fuse that has AC on it, that changes 60 x a second, so for one how can it possibly be directional? 2, how can it effect the music signal "unless" it acts like a diode and tries to rectify the mains on one half of the cycle. But of course you wouldn’t have understood a thing I just said. So "snake oil" and it’s alternatives I’m afraid is all you understand.” >>>>Sorry, George. The reason why AC fuses are directional just like DC fuses has been explained. Actually it’s been explained a bunch of times. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 Were you sleeping in class again? 😴 From your own words you obviously don’t even know what the word directionality means. What on Earth are you even talking about?! This is what happens when you assume something. You get all wrapped around the axel. Then georgehifi decided to add, Dennis Had director/founder of "Cary Audio", opinion on snake oil fuses ect. https://youtu.be/xLQsEeBKg1E?t=1791 >>>>>As I’ve oft opined, high end amp manufacturers apparently have the hardest heads of all the major food groups. Dennis Had, like Roger Modjeski, is about two paradigm shifts behind the power curve. You could say he’s been Had. 🤡 Geoff Kait Machina Dramatica We do Artificial Atoms Right |
Seems that the OPPO udp205 is another unit with a fuse soldered onto the mains board.
Phooey! |
uberwaltz - Seems that the OPPO udp205 is another unit with a fuse soldered onto the mains board.
Phooey!
Why phooey? Maybe OPPO **KNOWS** that no upgrade is needed and/or possible where the fuse is concerned. Just a thought. :) EDIT: And by soldering it, what OPPO is essentially meaning is they don't need any more "dramatica" 🤣 |
I had an OPPO. In fact I had the world’s most modded OPPO. An upgrade is needed. Case solved. I didn’t even have to do a blind test. See, that’s what happens when you talk the talk AND walk the walk, spaceman. 🤠
Who knows, if OPPO has used upgraded fuses or put the stock fuses in the right direction maybe they’d still be in business. 😀 |
geoffkait - .....Who knows, if OPPO has used upgraded fuses or put the stock fuses in the right direction maybe they’d still be in business. They are still in business... very much so in fact.... don’t take my word for it though...call them or send an email that you have an issue with your OPPO....see how responsive they are......or just read their public domain literature on how they intend to provide product/customer service for /to existing customers.... How is your business doing? 😧 Who knows, if OPPO *did* use "upgraded" fuses or cared to try any fuse in the "right direction", maybe they’d have been "out of business" sooner. 😀 |
uber,
Don’t be so easily deterred. The soldering iron needed to fix that costs way less than the fuse. |
Solder is pretty much the only thing that keeps non-technical, obsessed audiophiles from replacing all the electronic components in their stuff with more expensive equivalents just because they can. |
Mapman
Not deterred at all, just lazy...lol.
I will pull the cover and investigate, sure I could make an aftermarket fuse work in there.....
|
Hey it does look like Oppo gets the value of a good connection even if they have no clue about fuse direction. No dummies! |
