We certainly agree on that one! I have been listening to their eponymous disc since I was in high school and saw them at the Schaefer Music Festival in NYC. It's a real gem.
The greatest Pop song yet written and recorded.
This thread is an offshoot and was inspired by @mahgister’s wonderful thread "Interesting videos about sounds and music." I made a couple of contributions to that thread, recommending a video recorded quite a few years ago by (I believe) a music teacher, who sits at his keyboard while explaining and demonstrating the construction of the utterly majestic "God Only Knows", written by Brian Wilson (music) and Tony Asher (lyrics), recorded by The Beach Boys (vocals) and the L.A. studio musicians who comprised the legendary Wrecking Crew (instruments), the song found on the Pet Sounds album.
In my posts, I made the case for the highly sophisticated and incredibly brilliant chord progressions, modulations (key changes), and use of inversion (playing a bass note below the tonic of the chord being played on the piano) in the song’s composition. So when the video below appeared when I just jumped onto YouTube, it’s title really caught my eye. It is entitled "Exploring The Mythical Chords Of "God Only Knows"." Brian is well known for his harmony vocal arrangements, but that’s just the icing on the cake; the song itself is in it’s chords and melody. Some of the chord sequences in "God Only Knows" bring me to tears. Add to that the vocal harmonies---many sung in counterpoint---and Carl Wilson's angelic singing of the melody, and you have an absolute masterpiece of a song.
I have long considered "God Only Knows" my favorite song, and imo the "best" song ever written. I’m not alone in that; Paul McCartney has stated he feels the same. I could have added this video to @mahgister’s thread, but I believe the song and it’s appreciation warrant it’s own thread. Watch and listen to this video (and the one I posted in mahgister’s thread), give the song a new listen, and see if you don’t agree with Paul and I. 😉
https://youtu.be/I2PHOt9_fGc?si=7NVfhFUBn4aw_GGo
@loomisjohnson: That Seatrain album (their second) is a real good one. Also on it is the first version of the Lowell George song "I’m Willin" I ever heard. The album was produced by George Martin, and features the second line-up of band members, now including fiddler Richard Greene (formerly of The Jim Kweskin Jug Band, from which also came Maria Muldaur) and Peter Rowan, a pretty well known Bluegrass guitarist and singer. Richard and Peter had both earlier been in Bill Monroe's Bluegrass Boys. Excellent musicians. |
@tylermunns theres a great obscure Carole King song called creepin midnight on the s/t album seatrain (70s hippie band that got some brief attention. Check it out and lettuce know. |
@hce1 You bet! 😉 “It’s incredible and I’ll be listening to them all week long.” I love to hear that!
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Thanks for that list of Carole King songs. It’s incredible and I’ll be listening to them all week long. Thanks for initiating this thread. I’m enjoying it thoroughly! I haven’t the understanding of music theory to approach a list like this with the learned perspective some of you bring to this discussion. I do, however, consider more than a few songs to be perfect pop songs, songs that rip me out of the world and into their own magical realm. Here are a few off the top of my head:
And on and on! Haven’t even touched the American songbook, 50s RnR, Motown, Stax/Volt, Fame studios, blues, etc. Thankfully, there’s lots of songs to love!
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You are right about text.... I guess the best pop music and song is the last one on the hit chart...😁 Sometimes though there is a motivation in the song that make it more meaningful that to be just another hit... I like this one even it it is more folk than pop : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqSA-SY5Hro&t=99s
Anyway they give the Nobel to Dylan for being a bit more than the writer of songs on the hit chart... These days we need meaning at least more than just rythm and melody...
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Well, I’m pretty much an ignoramus regarding music theory, though much more conversant in literature/poetry. But to me, a great pop song requires both a great melody, and great lyrics/depth of meaning. So, at least by my standards, “God Only Knows”, which has pretty pedestrian lyrics, can never quite achieve greatness. |
It seems that successful "pop" music is that which firmly rivets itself to the popular culture of the day, The way we feel about ourselves, the world ... and each other. There are several "tests" that determine how well songs will stand up to the test of time. The Weddng Reception test: How often is it played at wedding receptions? Which songs impacted lives, and relationships? Being danceable is a key element here. God Only Knows gets a 2.7 on the "dance scale." Then again, Suite Judy Blue Eyes and A Day in a Life are not on the mobile DJ’s most requested list, either. The Shower Test: Can you sing it in the shower? Or, would you even want to? God Only Knows is not the easiest song to sing in the shower. Nor are the vast majority of BeeGees songs. Most mortals can sing 97% of Unchained Melody in the shower. It’s that 3% that makes you happy no one is around to listen. There’s also the special list of songs you can successfulyl sing while highly intoxicated. Quicksilver Messenger Service’s Mona tops my list. I’m sure you have your own. God Only Knows is beautiful on a level possibly unmatched in popular music history. It also make have catapulted itself to a level where it can be best appreciated by music geeks (or, those who drive the speed limit, or use the stovetop instead of the microwave). Patience is not a requirement for popular music appreciation. In my early 20’s, I painstakingly painted my car. While it was quite obvious to me that it was, indeed, Lime Gold Candy Pearl, most people saw it as a pretty green Camaro. As long as it made them smile and not compelled to take 80 grit sandpaper to it ... mission accomplished. God Only Knows may be viewed as just a beautiful song by many. I made a reference to "we're ants on a Rembrandt" in a prior topic, where ants are scurrying around seeing textures and colors change beneath their feet, totally unaware of the masterpiece below them. This may be the case with God Only Knows where "the masses" hear chord changes and beautiful harmonies, but not aware of the music masterpiece in front of them. I think alot of us just don’t want to work very hard to appreciate popular music. It reminds me of a Management Boot Camp conducted by a guy named Harry Friedman. Harrry asked the audience a question, and received a high detailed response from a participant. After several seconds of quiet, respectful, listening, Harry interrupted her and stated: "Save me the labor pains. Just give me the baby!" I think alot of us "just want the baby" when it relates to popular music. 4 guys from Wichita had some profound thoughts about their music. They referenced the term "hooks" to describe elements of the music that got the listener’s attention and pulled them into the song. Carry On My Wayward Son has 4 such hooks -- per the sony writer. As always I appreciate @bdp24 ’s deep dive into music. Some of the chords of God Only Knows are "half diminished", but I feel a litte smarter after viewing the video. Thanks for sharing. |
In the general era most of these songs are falling in, the definition of 'pop' is a good question. I tend to attribute four basic genre styles to that period. Hard rock was starting to come of age with songs like Steppenwolf's 'Born To Be Wild', and Jimi Hendrix's 'Purple Haze'. Because of the Vietnam war, almost all the popular groups had politically motivated protest songs that pushed an agenda. British progressive rock was also in it's infancy during this period. The last group is where pop resides. They were the songs that had no real agenda and were most often about the trials and tribulations of young love. They were the songs that made you reach for the volume knob and the ones you loved to sing along with even if you couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. They were the ones that even got our rock hating older generation tapping their toes when they thought no one was looking! Any songs considered rock and roll before 1965 were just that; good old rock and roll. No agendas, no messages, just a new generation exploring a new style of music. We really did get to live during one of the most interesting periods of musical history. It's where our hobby/obsession with audiophilia was born as well. |
@bdp24 |
@jssmith My "happy tune" is "Rythm of the Night" by El Debarge. 😊 |
I consider Stairway To Heaven the best song ever written, but while it was played extensively on the radio, I consider it album rock rather than pop rock. Pop music is not complex. I consider it mood music more than something that can be meticulously analyzed. As a 17-year-old going to the ocean I listened to The Beach Boys' Endless Summer non-stop and this is the age group that most pop is written for. Most people remain emotionally attached to the music they listened to during ages 15-20. That didn't happen to me. For pop rock, nothing gets my happy emotions going as much as I'm Walking On Sunshine by Katrina and the Waves. No, it's not complex, but no pop song is complex. |
Lots of good and thoughtful selections. I vote for "Dirty Water" by the Standells (I hear you rolling your eyes out there). Great rhythm, good guitar hook, simple lyrics and it sounded good on a portable transistor radio or in the car, where people listened when it was released. And it still sounds good. |
Good one @tylermunns. Yeah, Rock music can just be considered one branch of Pop music. How about Blues? My focus on Pop songs started in the late-60’s, when the album format replaced the 45 RPM single as the dominant format for Pop music. I heard album after album with no really good songs, which is my first love in non-Classical music. Rock bands in the late-60’s and 70’s were more interested in exploring improvisation (often in pale imitations of Jazz), and in becoming virtuoso musicians, rather than writing good songs. So my attention moved on to singer/songwriters like Randy Newman, Jackson Browne, Neil Young, etc. I reserved my admiration of superior musicianship for the likes of The Band, Ry Cooder, and studio musicians (the L.A. guys of course, but also those in the Muscle Shoals studios---the recording team now known as The Swampers). And like you, I consider the song "form" (verses, choruses, bridges, etc.) the determining factor in what makes for a Pop song. So when the debut album by The Dwight Twilley Band came out in 1976, I was stoked! They were a Rock ’n’ Roll band, but they wrote fantastic Pop songs, combining Memphis R & R with Merseybeat, an unbeatable combination. Their Sincerely album sounds as exhilarating today as the day it was released. Their follow up Twilley Don’t Mind has some great Pop songs, including the irresistible, hook-filled "Trying To Find My Baby", a great, great Pop song. And then in 1977 Dave Edmunds’ Get It album appeared, and I discovered "The Master". 😉 Not just a great Rock ’n’ Roll guitarist, but one hell of a producer. He recreates the Sun Records sound like no other, as well as Spector’s Wall-Of-Sound. His albums with the Rockpile team (Nick Lowe, Billy Bremner, Terry Williams) are as good as Rock ’n Roll gets, with the emphasis on songs. These days there are more good songwriters active than ever before. My musical taste leads me to the Americana genre, which is filled with great songwriters and singers, creating music as good as I have ever heard. It's a great time to be alive! |
If it ain’t classical and it ain’t jazz (I don’t consider vocal recordings of pop songs by the great songwriters of the early 20th century I posted previously to be ‘jazz’), it’s pop. Though obviously some exceptions, generally in the 3:00-range. That applies to everything from Al Jolson to Frank Sinatra to the Carter Family to Jimmie Rodgers to Bill Monroe to Hank Williams to Chuck Berry to James Brown to Kraftwerk to Bob Marley to The Ramones to the Sugarhill Gang. The more “out-there” part of pop (the prog-y stuff, math metal, Zappa, Beefheart, etc.) is just the outer reaches of pop. It still ain’t classical or jazz. It’s just exploring the farthest outer reaches of the pop universe. |
bdp24 yes what do we call or categorize the music that doesn't' fit neatly into a box ? Maybe a better question could have been "my favorite song, and imo the "best" song ever written " Then I would not have answered with Windy , or Vacation or Walk Like An Egyptian , all Poppy songs but not my quite my favorites and definitely not the best songs ever written . As all album forum questions I enjoy reading what others think and listen to , I've discovered new music that I wouldn't have otherwise , so thanks for this discussion. |
I agree, "What is Pop music?" is an interesting question, one perhaps without a definitive answer. It originally referred to songs written in the classic two verses, chorus, bridge (middle 8 in England), third verse, chorus, out form. Or a close approximation of it. Also with a sing along melody and "hooky" chorus. That’s how The Beatles started out, not surprising as they based their music on the American Pop music of the 50’s and early-60’s, with some Rock ’n’ Roll thrown in. They pretty much stuck with that formula through the Rubber Soul album (with some exceptions), after which there were no more rules. ABBA was obviously a Pop Group, but in my opinion so were The Ramones, and so are Weezer (hooks galore!). The Stones never were, nor were The Yardbirds (though in the 1960’s the British press referred to all the bands---including The Stones, The Who, even Cream---as Pop Groups. That was to differentiate between music for teenagers, and the adult music: Jazz and Classical). The Kinks are a tough call; Ray Davies wrote Pop Songs, but most of them didn’t sound Pop ("Waterloo Sunset" being one notable exception, but there are plenty of others). The line between Rock and Pop is not so clear, and as much an opinion as anything else. Is a "Pop" song performed by a Rock band Pop music, or Rock? Like Van Halen’s version of "California Girls". When it comes to "God Only Knows", I use the term Pop in reference to the non-Pop music it shares many musical "devices" with: Classical music. It’s certainly not a Rock song, so whatta ya call it? There is a sub-genre amongst Pop music aficionados, called Baroque Pop. I suppose that’s the best we can do. That term works for Brian’s pal Van Dyke Parks too.
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vair68robert, I used to consider everything I listened to as "rock," which was where it was located in the record store bins. Along came the internet, and the Steve Hoffman forum, where I was informed that most of my favorites (the Beach Boys, Linda Ronstadt, Motown, the girl groups) were actually considered "pop." I was alright with that, as I’d never listened much to the one-word-name groups, or any hair metal, or hard metal, or John Mayall, or pre-Lindsey and Stevie FM. Except for Satanic Majesties and Let It Bleed, I don’t even like post-Between the Buttons Stones. So I’ve continued to hie to that definition, as long as we’re talking about the pop music of our generation. (Begone, Shawn Mendes, Barefoots, Britney, Taylor Swift, etc.) But if you want to go back to calling it all "rock," I have no problem with that. P.S. The only version of "Walk Away, Renee" I like is the original. |
@vair68robert - Good question - I think your categorization is perfectly correct for you - take a category and put in what you think belongs there, and nobody should tell you you are wrong. 'Pop' is just short for 'Popular' and all kinds of music can be so considered by somebody. That's why I think the 'Rock and Roll Hall of Fame', if such a thing should even exist, with everything that is in it, should be renamed the 'Pop Music Hall of Fame' - that would cover it all, I should think. |
I have to ask you this What is a Pop song ? I'm seeing all kinds of music being listed as Pop songs , I wouldn't consider the Beach Boys " Only God Knows " as Pop or John Lennon's " Imagine " or Jefferson Airplane's " Comin Back to Me " , but " Walk Away Renee " ( I like Rickie Lee Jones version ) maybe all of what ABBA did or Diana Ross and the Supremes or all the Beach Boys surfer songs or all the Beatles up to Revolver is the type of music that I would think of as Pop . Am I way off base with my categorization ?
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In the words of the Highlander "There can be only one". Written by Mick at the tender age of 25, the song is as powerful today as ever. There are plenty of pretty pop songs, and then there is the one that towers above them all IMHO 🤣 Please allow me to introduce myself And I was 'round when Jesus Christ Pleased to meet you Stuck around St. Petersburg I rode a tank Pleased to meet you I watched with glee I shouted out Let me please introduce myself Pleased to meet you Pleased to meet you Just as every cop is a criminal So if you meet me Pleased to meet you Woo, who Tell me baby, what's my name? What's my name |
@roxy54, both of those songs are standouts, two I often sing in my head. Just wonderful songs. |
Even though I'm in the "classic vinyl' age group with the majority of posters on this thread, I'm going to go a little more recent and say Michael Morales "Who Do You Give Your Love To?", and Thomas Dolby's "She Blinded Me With Science" both stand the test of a little less time. Back in my becoming an audiophile days, "Baby, Now That I Found You" by the Foundations, and "Red Rubber Ball" by The Cyrkle always made me reach for the volume knob. In the surf genre, "New York's a Lonely Town" by The Trade Winds gets a nod as well. I've had to give a thumbs up to pretty much every tune listed on this thread so far. We got to grow up during a time when music itself was growing up. Being able to say, "I remember when that song came out on the AM radio" puts us in an especially privileged group of music lovers, because in those pre MTV days, the AM radio station DJ's were ultimately the ones who decided which songs were hits. Air time was expensive, and they wouldn't waste it on songs that didn't have what it took to stay on the charts, or even songs that ran over a certain time limit. When Phil Spector produced The Righteous Brothers "You've Lost That Loving Feeling", a song that ran almost four minutes, he knew it was a chart topper. He also knew that most stations wouldn't play a song that long, so he deliberately misprinted the label time as 3:05 to make sure it got the air time it deserved. By the time the DJ's figured out the scam, it was too big of a hit to stop playing it. That's always been one of my favorite stories from the halcyon days of rock music. I'm glad I got to be a part of that special era.
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@tylermunns: Does your copy of the Song Cycle LP have the beautiful gold Warner Brothers center paper label? Both my copies (one has the rear cover with lyrics, the other without them but full musician credits) have the later ugly green WB label. I’ve been looking for a gold label copy in Mint condition for a few years now, to no avail. I’m a patient guy. 😉 The LP was reissued by somebody a few years ago. I have the Speakers Corner Records reissue of Nilsson Sings Newman, but haven’t gotten around to listening to it yet. Thanks for the reminder. |
My original US copy of Song Cycle is one of my more cherished records. |
@tylermunns: A songwriter/bandmate and I discovered Randy Newman’s first album through Van Dyke Parks and Brian Wilson. Because of Van’s work with Brian on the Smile recordings (I discovered the Smiley Smile album in early-’68, and turned him on to it. He became as obsessed with it as I), we got his debut album (Song Cycle, an amazing piece of work) as soon as we learned of it (it was released in late-’67). Listening to Song Cycle on acid is an experience unlike any other. 😉 Song Cycle opens with "Vine Street", a song credited on the album’s back cover to R. Newman (he is credited with the arrangement as well), and a little investigation revealed the R to be Randy. Van performs "Vine Street" in a somewhat surrealistic manner, so I didn’t know what to expect when I got Randy’s 1968 s/t debut album (it was released with two different covers; I of course have both 😉). The album credits production to Van Dyke Parks and Lenny Waronker, so getting it was a no-brainer. The album was engineered by Lee Herschberg, so it sounds great. What a breathe of fresh air! In the midst of psychedelic horsesh*t, power trios (with which I was growing tired), and album side-long jams, here was an album of superb two and three minute long songs, recorded not with a Rock band, but an orchestra. Randy’s vocal abilities were obviously limited, but his delivery served the songs well enough. I became a life-long fan, though I wasn’t happy when he hired the members of Toto to record with him. I have his entire catalogue, Good Old Boys being a particular favorite. It was through Randy’s albums that I first became aware of Jim Keltner, Randy’s preferred drummer (he is also on Maria Muldaur’s 1973 solo debut, another favorite album of mine). |
The greatest pop song written and recorded .... Lots of interesting opinions here - but I think the answer to this question was not even mentioned ! (Unless I missed it in this lengthy thread ! )..... The greatest pop song one could argue is the song that has remained on the top 40 charts the longest - meaning it resonated with the largest group of music fans. It is: "All I Want for Christmas Is You" by Mariah Carey. It holds the record for the most weeks in the Top 40 history with 86 weeks. 86 weeks !!! FYI - she has also earned more than $50 million in royalties for this single song. And no matter your age, religion, or musical taste, the song is a pop masterpiece.
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Phil Spector’s vision was original. He was a producer, not an arranger/transcriber. |
One of my very favorite early-60’s songs/records is "On Broadway", sung by The Drifters, written by Carole King and Gerry Goffin’s Brill Building songwriting team competition: Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann. The song/recording is very haunting, and hearing it never fails to "return me to" the time of it’s release. I remember hearing it coming out of the transistor radio under my pillow at night. 😊 By the way, playing the guitar solo in the song is none other than Phil Spector!
@loomisjohnson: Speaking of Phil Spector, you may know he didn’t write the orchestra charts for his recordings/productions, that was done by his arranger Jack Nitzsche. Guess who wrote the orchestral/string arrangement for "Expecting To Fly", and produced the whole recording? Jack Nitzsche. Jack in one reason Neil’s Harvest album is as good as it is, as well as the 1971 s/t Crazy Horse album, produced by Jack and Bruce Botnick.
@tylermunns: I absolutely loved Bobby Vee’s recording of "Take Good Care Of My Baby" and "Go Away Little Girl" by Steve Lawrence. I had them on 45 RPM singles back then, and still do. That’s one reason I could never own only a Linn Sondek. 😉
I can’t tell you what a pleasure it is to be surrounded by fellow song and songwriter lovers! I’m tempted to start a thread dedicated to a related topic: Power Pop. That idea came to me after listening to the one Fastball album I own, which opens with a killer Power Pop song: "The Way".
Has anyone else heard "One Hit Wonders Of The World Unite" by the Canadian group Badger? Here ’tis, but be forewarned: the sound quality is terrible.
bahttps://youtu.be/yjfqmK_xPPI?si=JIyIG-rJc162izNknd
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@noromance Carol was the music, Gerry was the lyrics. |
@teboerio I feel compelled to note that Glen Campbell’s 1970 version of Jimmy Webb’s masterpiece “MacArthur Park” is hard to beat. |
Thank you, rpeluso, for the Madeleine Peyroux "Desperados." She does it right. I imagine you've heard her version of Leonard Cohen's "Dance Me to the End of Love" (perhaps a good choice, perhaps a bad, on Rosh Hashanah). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REmk1EaaIzo And yes, I love "He's a Rebel." "Da Doo Ron Ron" as well. By chance, do you have a relative named Marlene. - jay15206 p.s. I like "Hey, Jude." |