The Future of Hifi is just being Discovered

You may want to read that again before you make that statement.

@thecarpathian ?

For those devoted to LP playback and tube amps-nothing here to see.

@tablejockey what about cable users? Or cryo on components/tubes? Seem to be there is some effect. 

This article has nothing to do with cryogenically treating a cable or anything else.

It's about running an electron experiment at sustained temperatures below the cryogenic threshold.

@thecarpathian the definition of cryogenics is:

Merriam-Webster 

: of or relating to the production of very low temperatures

b: being or relating to very low temperatures

This article has to do with how electrons move at very cold temperature. Alas, cables and tubes taken to cryogenic levels seem to effect the electrons to some level that is just being learned. Relax. 

j-wall-

the cryo thing for tubes, cables and whatever  unfortunately is just another YMMV, subjective thread topic.

Check the archives.

I am relaxed. I’m as mellow as jello.

No need to point out to me the gist of the article.

Still doesn’t have anything to do with cryogenically treating anything, which is the implication you’re alluding to. None the less, an interesting article.

Just not for the reason you started this thread. I know my response seems curt and blunt. I’m feeling minimalist today and it’s carrying over to my writing style.

Perhaps a joke to lighten the mood;

What’s green and sings?

Elvis Parsley! 😆

@thecarpathian essentially freezing an item has to do with the way electrons flow through the item. That's exactly the point. I'm not a +60 year old audiophile like most here, so I found this article about metallurgy and freezing an item to have a scientific approach over an old "I heard a difference" to be interesting and engaging. All I'm saying is cryogenics seems to beginning to have an understand and could be interesting to see what happens for the future of Hifi. No need to come for someone who's interested in progress. 

j, I am not coming after you. I’m explaining that cooling a metal to the point that it makes it a better conductor while it is in that state of temperature has been going on for decades. It’s nothing new or cutting edge. It’s the entire premise of superconductors.

It only conducts like that at those extreme temperatures. It doesn't translate over to our room temperature systems.

Now, if you’re thinking is that cryogenically treating a metal somehow changes its metallurgical properties to where it makes it a better conductor at room temperature, therefore having implications to say a stereo cable, that is not at all what the article is about. Cryogenic treatment of a metal is used to harden that metal, anything after that and things get smoky. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims made about it in the audio world. That’s it. I’m glad you found it interesting. So did I and I’m sure others will also. Thank you for sharing.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to take my Milk of Magnesia, do a push up, and cry myself to sleep.

I’d have a hard time believing studying cryogenics has been going on for decades. Possibly metalurgy, but not cryogenics. But you honestly believe that nothing new or cutting edge is in a scientific journal? A hifi website and a guy has already been down this road? I’m having a hard time trusting that one.

And going back to the article, what it is about electrons working like water at extreme temperatures ie freezing. To claim that those interactions don’t occur unless frozen is not what the article claims, that’s your claim. I don’t claim to fully understand their findings, but you claiming that you understand how electrons work under different circumstances is more farfetched than a scientific journal from some of the top researchers in the field.

Cryogenics has been around since the 1800’s, j. I’ll give you that tidbit of knowledge, after that you’re on your own.

As to your other claims as to what I believe and/or claim, now you’re just talking nonsense. No wonder you’re so confused. Study up and then get back to me. You’re lack of knowledge in this subject matter is putting you at a distinct disadvantage.

Never mind. I’m bored with this interaction. Not sporting.

I’m sure you’re a great guy and terrific dancer, but you should really work on knowing your limitations and not impose them on others. Honestly, no hard feelings. Seriously, look this stuff up, it will give you a better understanding of the article.

I read though this whole thread and link, not just for the audio but for the science as I have a minor in Physis. A favorite subject of mine also. 

@j-wall _wall - please read though this again. @thecarpathian is correct, you are mis-reading/understanding the article and worse, carpathian's responses, who is only trying to be helpful. Just take a deep breath and step back and re-read it. 

I’d have a hard time believing studying cryogenics has been going on for decades.

That pretty much explains it!

@j-wall 

Seriously, reread the article.

Don't worry, I am sure a group of audiophiles will reject the science, even if it makes a clear measurable difference, and if it does not, another group will laud it and claim everyone else has bad hearing.

So my kiddo grabs a popsicle from the freezer, runs outside and sees his friends started playing soccer again. He sets the treat down and joins the fray. 20 minutes later Paco returns to a melted mess. He starts sobbing then askes, " hey daddy, is this why you keep your audio interconnects in the freezer?" I replied, "Yes son, it's also why I keep the basement at absolute zero."

Last time I bought tubes from Upscale Audio the salesman asked what "level" of tube did I prefer: 1. Good Matched 2. Excellent Matched 3. Kevin’s stash or 4. the best ones that are then cryogenically treated? What’s the cost is my question and the cryo tubes were close to double the price. I went for door #3.

Interestingly, I asked him if the cryo tubes sounded much different, he replied that no they sound the same "But some audio guys just have to have all kinds of stuff cryo’d so we offer it as a service."

I just shock my head.

Regards,

barts

Apropos of nothing but somehow related……

Heat is work and work is heat. So there’s that too. 

barts,

Never get vacuum tubes cryogenically treated, its a scam and not healthy for the tube life.

People do not understand that a tube has multiple parts of different materials that expand and contract at different rates. This causes stresses in the tube when you try to freeze it at cryo levels. One of the biggest failure points is the tube pins where they pass through the glass envelope. Another is the plates where they join to other types of metals. 

It is not safe to cryo vacuum tubes ever and your just adding to failure points if you do. 

Cryo Tube Controversy - The Chilling Truth - thetubestore Blog

Cryogenic Treatment of Tubes: An Engineer’s Perspective - Effectrode

Something different,

I suspect that electronic engineers don’t get any courses in Materials Science, Engineering Science and Strength of Materials as do some others in the field.

All materials would benefit from cryo treatment if done right.

I would not care for NOS cryo treated tubes but i would for cables, plugs, fuses and so on.

Just saying.

Did you read the comments @glennewdick ?  ... Funny, but predictable.

No they don't @petg60 , but some of us are not engineers, but material scientists. No not all materials would benefit from cryo treatment whether done right or wrong. Especially an assembly of multiple metals may not, it could quite possible destroy delicate surface features from temperature change shear of metals with different expansion expansion coefficients.

Of course, we are talking electrical properties as well, not mechanical properties. Precise alignments, diffusions, vacuums, etc. any number of things could be negatively impacted and when you are talking about the basic conductivity of a metal, small differences will be inconsequential no matter what.

deludedaudiophile

440 posts

07-11-2022 at 10:13am

Did you read the comments @glennewdick ? ... Funny, but predictable.

I read most and I was not referring to the article that I did not read fully. I was referring to someone talking about cyro treating vacuum tubes. I was adding some references for that statement.

Not the same as electrons flowing at cryogenic temps.

Please be more specific as i do not get your sarcasm.

@glennewdick - It was the comments in the articles you linked. No evidence seem to suffice for those who are sure of "their senses".

J-wall,

As you can see-WITHOUT even going to the archives, audio cryo is part of audiophoolery.

@tablejockey it seems as this is just being discovered so I don't think that is the case. Some have their take on tubes, but calling it "audiophoolery" is a disservice to innovation. I don't think brands like Shunyata would be using it if it provided no value. Caelin is a lot smarter than most of the peanut gallery here. 

Aerospace industry, military aviation are two examples using this technology on critical parts for enhanced wear resistance. Landing gears, turbines, engine parts, cabin parts, communication systems, guidance, cabling, etc. What about F1 cars.

On the other hand in audio i cannot think of a better example of many Japanese, and not only, manufacturers in cabling and accesories following cryo treatment on their products. Marketing, i do not think so.

J-wall,

I imagine very few- if any, readers see  my use of the term audiophool as just poking fun at EVERYTHING/EVERYONE(including myself) who participates in this often ridiculous hobby.

Other than setting gear up with safety in mind, it's a free for all regarding many things "hi end audio."

I just can't take it THAT seriously. I get there are others who might approach this obsession differently.

Put cryo in the try for yourself and decide category.

You have a solid setup. No wallet draining peripherals required. Just room/speaker optimization and good LP's to play.

@tablejockey I gotcha, no hard feelings. I'm just here to learn and to push back when something doesnt quite make sense to me. But I'm also here to learn and listen from those with experience and are open to the dialogue.

The purpose of this post was wholly and entirely to spark dialogue about how electrons can actually flow like water and the effects of very cold temperatures on them. I'm not an expert, just interested in learning  There's a lot of dialogue from want to be experts , but the claims by science people smarter than me seem to conclude differently. 

@petg60 I just was reading about Telefunken cryo'ing their tubes. Interesting stuff on how it smoothes the grains. I even read a few things about how cryo'ing saw blades help them to remain sharper longer and are not dulled as quick when the blades do get warm from friction on a cutting surface. Cool. 

I think the point of the article was missed, which is conductors with liquid electron flow. Currently it's possible under extreme circumstances, but as OP said it's the birth of a new era, and not yet practical implementation.

When this technology becomes mainstream, it will revolutionize audio, and life in general.

Jack Bybee started out on this path, and I was fortunate to pick his brains while he was alive...  we are one foot into this quantum era already. Public feels little yet, but medical field, aerospace industry and mil applications are already knee deep in it. Sorry, I cannot share more on this without breaking confidentiality.

Not sure this has a future in hifi as being thought of here. . By the time it's become mainstream I doubt hifi will exist as we know it. Probably have implants where music is streamed directly to the relevant brain areas. Forget cables, tubes,  and other surpurflous audiophoolery. You're thinking to 21st century.

Revolutionize audio ... How.

There are tradeoff w.r.t superconductivity and bandwidth. This may also not occur at room temperature and or under highly application restrictive conditions.

Oh, for cryoing out loud...

There....had to be said. 😏

"By request from Mello Jello....Quite Rightsly..."

So in the future if I keep my rig VERY cold...

Be sure to wear a warm coat.

So cryoing something doesn’t just get it super cold only to warm up again it actually changes the crystalline structure of the item permanently? 

Sorry, I cannot share more on this without breaking confidentiality.

Keeping it all super secret and mysterious.

Always a terrific business tactic when dealing with selling this stuff to audiophiles.

When you’re ready to come to market, don’t forget to throw around buzzwords like ’quantum tunneling’ a lot. Sells every time.

Cryogenically treated, micro-grain, solid carbide tooling became "all the rage" back in the early 1980's. That is the last time that "I" remember (Cryo) treated metals being espoused as-

"Cutting Edge" tech.! 

I cannot share more on this without breaking confidentiality.

That is funny! 😁

j-walls heart is in the right place, he’s just about 50 years behind discovering this stuff. I also think he's not yet up to speed on all the hype and smoke and mirrors that comes with this hobby.

@thecarpathian you seem to be fixated on my thoughts for some weird reason. We don’t agree and you are free to die on your hill of being an expert in Cryogenics. I'm not an expert, but I don't buy what you're selling and it is what it is. It's not as big of a deal to me as it seems it is to you.

Let see you respond to that C

Oh, j. Don’t flatter yourself. I find you at most an amusing, irrelevant distraction.

You know j, I was considering giving you a good old fashioned intellectual spanking, but what’s the point. You’re way too smart to be buying what I’m selling.

So you continue to be mesmerized by your new to you 140+ year old ’cutting edge’ technology, misunderstanding and misinterpreting all the fascinating new electron discoveries, and swallowing whatever cryo word salad the tube, fuse and cable guys are serving up this go ’round.

You continue to disregard the ’peanut gallery’ and the ’want to be experts’ on this forum and listen to the ’science guys’. But remember this, j; a lot of the peanut gallery and want to be experts on here are science guys. Pity you’re too closed minded to see it. Perhaps when you get a bit older...

And as far as what I’m ’selling’; all I’m stating in my posts is irrevocable facts and truth, and since you’re not buying, you are free to die on your hill of myopic ignorance.

Can I insult people eloquently or what??!😎

I still say brain implants will be decades ahead of electron whirlpools for cutting edge hifi in the future. 

@thecarpathian I don't think you've managed to convince anyone here you know what you're talking about, so you can save your "spanking" for your grandchildren. Listen, you aren't intimidating and you are providing zilch to the discussion. Your responses are an appalling and sad attempted at humor and an absolute miss of information. You're upset and triggered, and that's ok. I'd love to learn more on what you have to offer. So if you can get over your infatuation with me and just provide information and data, we all as a collective will be better off without your rambling boomer humor and emojis. 

Quite an alternate reality you've created for yourself.

I’m sorry, j.

Perhaps you missed the part of my post about ’amusing and irrelevant’.

Now you’re just irrelevant.