@tonywinga again, you are not relevant. You may spend money foolishly, but that doesn’t make you relevant.
and again, a clown is a clown, and by your own definition, you are definitely a clown. You have never posted anything supporting your point, mainly because there is nothing available.
Testing Ethernet switch
If you have bought an "audio" Ethernet switch, don't bother with this thread
If you question Ethernet switches, here is one test of one brand.
Search You-Tube Linus Tech Tips Aqvox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFQ3YvR3Eo&t=914s
130 responses Add your response
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Dear Freddy, of course I have relevant experience. Again, you ignore anything that doesn’t fit your narrative. You see, I’m the one with a high end stereo and an audio grade network switch that improves the sound of streaming- real world experience. Your the one with no stereo with an audio grade network switch and so no experience and no knowledge- just an opinion based on speculation. |
@cleeds the ignorant don’t know better. |
@tonywinga again, you have no relevant experience at all. So, a clown is a clown, by your own definition, you have nothing to back up your claims and you cannot argue anything that I post. Simply put, you are not relevant in a discussion regarding computer networks. |
@jeffrey125 you are talking about your system, right? Mine is certainly far more resolving that yours, and while it doesn’t matter always, but seems at least 10x more expensive than yours. |
And yet many of us have been leading happy and successful lives for years without the benefit of your instruction and guidance. How do you account for that discrepancy? Perhaps you are just full of yourself. |
Dear Freddy, you are mistaken. I am not arguing your facts. I am arguing that your facts and statistics are not substantiated with reference to sources. Neither you nor the Geek have demonstrated expert status, ie. Membership in professional societies, nor any reference to serving on committees in professional societies that create specifications and standards for telecommunications equipment nor reference to any published technical papers. You nor the Geek have not referenced or demonstrated the ability to design and develop telecommunications equipment. A certificate from a manufacturer does not qualify you as an expert. That qualifies you to install their equipment. Therefore, you have an opinion, just like me. To assert anything more than that is misleading. Go back to my definition of a clown. |
@fredrik222 no they just tire of your one dimensionality and obsession with this subject. I personally could care less and just enjoy razzing you two monkeys. You two are a broken record. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Betting niether of you tow have a sound system that would reveal the sonic differnces in cables or filtration. I know that to be true of the OP.
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As Hans has pointed out and many others with ehternet it boils down to Filters. Also is is not just 1's, and 0's with audio. If people want to spend their money on cables, switches and the like, let them, who are you to tell them otherwise. Caped Crusaders?
Read up and listen, you decide. https://youtu.be/ZCFvIzzMqfk?si=xb5AOj70CGjfxCzd https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2023/03/10/silent-angel-bonn-n8-pro-network-switch-review/ https://darko.audio/2023/10/podcast-10-hi-fi-myths-busted-w-peter-comeau/ 3. Digital is just ones and zeroes and is impervious to interference |
@jeffrey125 yeah, actually gaining knowledge is tedious, the majority here never bothered with learning anything about anything. That is very apparent. |
@tonywinga here is an article from an industry source: |
@cleeds per usual, selective quoting and citing of reference materials to highlight something that isn’t there. But at least you admit I am correct. |
@mgrif104 Hans just regurgitates the debunked white paper by John Swenson. another point, modern Ethernet is a point to point connection, it is terminated between each connection and the signal is read and recreated for every hop along the chain. So no noise can travel beyond any connection point. |
@tonywinga you have no relevant experience or knowledge, yet you have the arrogance to argue facts about a topic you have demonstrated over and over again is far far beyond your comprehension, and then call me a clown. It is absolutely hilarious. i have a civil engineering degree in computer communications, I have numerous certifications from Cisco, Juniper and many others, at the Expert level, and I have worked with computer networks all over the world for almost 25 years. |
You may well be correct. If none of those subjects heard a difference, it's possible that their expectation that there would be no difference biased their observations. |
You two bozos, aka clowns seem to ignore facts and keep pushing your own crazy off the wall narrative. You two have nothing better? Is it a burning jealousy that you can’t hear or can’t afford a good stereo? Do you two pick on videophiles as well telling them they only think they see a better picture? How about RC hobbyists? What kind of faults do you find with them, I wonder Keep it up. Very entertaining. I picture you two standing in the rain getting soaked arguing umbrellas are a fabrication for the gullible thinking they are staying dry
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I find it hilarious when people who have 0 knowledge about a topic attack people with knowledge. You can’t argue any thing about how it actually works, just what you “hear”. but facts remain, about 50% of people who don’t know anything about Ethernet, TCP/IP and streaming can “hear” a difference, while 50% cannot as evidenced by this thread and many others, and 100% of people with knowledge of the topic hear no difference. This is what a randomized control trial would call placebo effect. |
nonoise, What do you find as a factual fault with my statements? So far, only opinions have been expressed along with less that forum cordial comments. If I have made a factual error, please enlighten me. I try to learn something every day. If you find my comments old, you are free not to read them. As you seem to believe otherwise and rather than discuss where we disagree, you attack my comments with no supporting facts. I am not going to change your viewpoint and don't care. This thread was to help members who may not understand Ethernet not be taken for a ride. Refer to my opening sentence in the thread or provide factual evidence where I am in error. I have made NO insanity defense. Please do not make up things I have not said. I This is not insanity, just part of what makes us human. It would be a rather dull world if we were all perfectly objective. In anything. We aren't. I don't know if they teach this in school any more, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion If you want to stay only in the audio side, there are quite a few books on psychoacoustics. Search Amazon. |
It's statements like these that give sane members here pause. Your reliance on an insanity defense (accusation?) is really getting old. It makes one wonder just how familiar you are with it. All the best, |
Anyone, please identify, or even a guess what these " other things carried along " are so they could be investigated. DC offset? RF? A ground loop causing client ground noise? All these should be taken care of by the client. Hans is one of the more reliable You-Tubers with professional audio background, but his conclusion is subjective. "Other things" falls under the extraordinary claim category. BTW, His description of the digital filtering clipping problem is something everyone should read. Also addressed by RME and Chord among others. I saw how someone measured a higher client clock jitter outputting to the DAC. If this was accurate, the difference was small enough that the temperature of the oscillator module could account for it, it could also mean poor isolation in the client device of the power and grounds. It did not include temperature in the measurement. They did not show if this delta was within the specs of the oscillator. As these were not in ovens, the numbers the suggested jitter was well within the design limits I am familiar with though parts have gotten better since I was in the lab. The transport layer's job is to move bits from host memory to client memory. After that, all kinds of things can happen. GOOGLE the IP stack for more information. All things physical that are measurable are not audible. All things physical that are audible we don't always measure. Sound and hearing are not the same. Sound is real. Hearing is a combination of sound our ears pick up and our subconscious combined. It is not objective. Not in humans. You may very well hear something and no one can tell you if you do or not, but it does not mean it was physical sound. Progress can be made only if we rely on science rather than magic. |
@mgrif104 +1 You also have a lovely system. |
I’ll add my experience. I initially purchased the Network Acoustics Eno filter system. I had a 30 day trial period within which I could return it for a full refund. I had also ordered the English Electric 8 network switch but it hadn’t come in as of yet. Candidly, I heard little to no difference with the insertion of the Eno filter and was going to return it. I don’t throw money out windows. But, as the company said it was important to upgrade the switch, I waited so I could audition them together. Paired together, it was a clear improvement. Not night and day, but an improvement enough to keep the units. I did try the switch alone and while it made an audible difference, it was the pairing that brought the most benefit. My point is that I did not fall prey to psychoacoustics or confirmation bias. I was about to send back the filter - which is designed to clean up the Ethernet signal from ride along noise. The network switch is working on the same concept. What i think the OP is missing are two things: 1) few are disagreeing that the network packets arrive fully intact and that timing is a non-factor, and 2) noise (not hiss, but EMF, etc.) is carried along with the signal. This is because while the network is transmitting 1s and 0s, that signal is in the form of analog electrical pulses not immune to noise. Hans Beekhuyzen addresses this in a YouTube video - and shows how this can be measured before and after the network switch. That we can hear the difference (not night and day, but audible) should be no surprise. In summary, the data is bit perfect. The packets are in order and there are no timing issues being addressed by the switch. The upgraded network switches are doing nothing to the signal in this aspect. Yet there is an audible difference between stock and some upgraded audiophile hardware because the latter is reducing the amount of other things carried along the ride. It’s not all snake oil (some is). I would ask the OP to reconsider. While you appear to know far more than many of us about how networks work, perhaps that doesn’t translate into knowing all that is necessary to understand how sensitive digital audio conversion is to noise. That’s why cables (all of them actually, digital, analog, speaker and A/C) are so audibly different. Best,
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Interesting: https://youtu.be/ZCFvIzzMqfk?si=rQEj0SChlAc-0ipd |
@jeffrey125 , Someday.....lol.....that IS a long ride.
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@coralkong not sure that’s Gods Country but it’s darn close. You will need more than a 6 pack for that drive. 😉 Texas is a drive. Not saying Texas is Gods Country, partial to Montana and Idaho myself. |
I’ll pick up a 6 pack on the way, @jeffrey125 . Where you at? I am in the very northern tip of NH. God’s country. I have a great playlist! |
@tvrgeek It isn't the value of your posts, it's the thought that counts. I know you try. |
@tvrgeek did not listen to the podcast from a real EE/Audio Engineer regarding the 10 Audio Myths. Geek it's number 3 so you should not nod off. BTW a lot of here are engineers, MSME. https://darko.audio/2023/10/podcast-10-hi-fi-myths-busted-w-peter-comeau/ |
I appreciate you. Haven’t had a blood pressure pill since retiring
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i’m a 30+ year IT professional network engineer with more letters after my name than I can even remember. It’s irrelevant when it comes to audio. I learned a long time ago that the guy who needs to feel he’s the smartest guy in the room will not be on my team. No thanks. IOW, I wouldn’t hire him, lol.
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Claiming digital audio is just “1’s and 0’s” is a simplistic and naive point of view. Digital audio has analog components that affect the sound quality. Thinking you know how IP works is not the same as knowing how it works. Training is a non-heuristic process used to teach people a specific set of tasks. |
Actually, I am an engineer, but I referenced the training from CISCO.. You know them. The ENTIRE internet is either Cisco or Huewai. They know a little about it. All for higher sonics, but you won't get it chasing the impossible. READ how IP works. Then make up your mind. If you are not willing, then keep being taken by carpet baggers. You have been warned. End. |
+1 @tonywinga +1 @cleeds
Just because it’s expensive and/or one doesn’t understand how it works does NOT automatically mean it doesn’t perform as intended or proof is a requirement Sure, in an “ideal world” we’d like to “be assured” that what we’re buying is “worth” it by understanding how it works, but manufacturers for self preservation reasons rarely share their R&D findings. Wishing and/or griping won’t change anything. I don’t “like” paying a premium over box store prices, but this is a hobby. Many of us are after higher sonics regardless on understanding how it works |
It wouldn't matter what degrees or certifications tvrgeek might have - nonsense is nonsense regardless of the source. Almost all of his posts share the same theme, such one @coralkong pointed out that I'd overlooked:
When someone tells you to discard empirical evidence, ignore your own thoughts, and instead heed them, that's a cult. |
@tonywinga you are 100% correct. @tvrgeek I guess for some $11.00 variance is a lot of money. My house and our community was built on a fiber network. I also should be more cognizant of others resources. Again it is your opinion and two cents, and that is what it is worth. Don Quixote keep tilting at windmills. |
Keep in mind this is tvrgeek’s opinion. He is not a degree’d engineer or scientist nor has he published papers in technical journals on this subject matter. Therefore, he is not a subject matter expert. Correct me if I’m wrong. Treat his opinion as such. I am not a subject matter expert on the internet or ethernet either. I have an opinion too. My opinion differs greatly from his. My opinion is based on personal experience. I am however an experienced, degreed engineer. I understand the value and context of measurements and how to interpret them. I also have 44 years in this hobby and have experimented and trialed various mechanical and electrical upgrades with varying degrees of success as well as participating in the observations and discoveries made by fellow audio hobbyists. One of the craziest tweaks still that I have encountered in this hobby is using a bulk tape eraser on CDs. It works, my fellow audio friends have experienced it as well. No one can adequately explain to me why or how it works. Doesn’t matter. What matters is the application and the repeatable results with a $20 Radio Shack bulk tape eraser. The experience is like hearing a record with a poorly tracking cartridge before the CD is demagnetized. After demag, the sound is much clearer. One day someone may figure it out but since the CD era is about over I think it is not likely. |
