Test

Congratulations!  How do you know it's sounding the way it really should?

+1, @onhwy61 

You beat me to it…IME, we really don’t…not with absolute certainty. There’s just too many variables at play. 

IMHO, you’ll never know exactly what the artist or recording engineer intended. But you can strive to build a system and environment that prioritizes transparency, emotion and engagement with music and that might be as close as any of us can reasonably get.

In any case, I’m happy for OP; enjoy every moment of your new found bliss!

You’re both right.  I really don’t know how it should sound for certain.  
I didn’t want to sound immodest.  It just sounds incredible to me.

Congratulations. Anything you did in particular that brought your rig to its current level of performance?

Great album, I'm listening to it now. Great liner notes about the speed wars and background. One of the great albums recorded in the '57 to early 60's from the golden age of recording... great rich sound. 

Didn’t do anything except raise the volume level which brought the music to life.

That's wonderful  @rvpiano !

Know the feeling.

Am there myself.

Happy for you.

Thank you all for your kind words.

@ghprentice

The major improvement Came when i acquired the Aurender 200 streamer.  
Sounds at least as good as a CD or most SACDs.

Congratulations!

It is an excellent album tool...

It's a nasty can of worms we open when we decide that our rigs need to sound like they are supposed to. I've had several recording engineers to my house over the years. They do not care! When I get goose bumps from the sound, I am happy. I'm getting close with my present system. Not quite there yet. I'll have to cue up the Mercury sampler. Congratulations from me as well rvpiano.

@rvpiano. I understood what you meant after reading just your original post: it sounded the way YOU like it and that’s all that matters. We all perceive sound differently to a certain extent and even in our lifetime, there will be variations due to aging and mood. Happy for you.

@spenav 

Yes you are right, it is the way I like it.  But as far as the Mercury Sampler goes, the instruments never sounded so real before without distortion as in the previous incarnations of my setup. 
 

BTW, I listened to the Qobuz version of the recording, not the original disc (which I also own.)

@rvpiano Yes there’s that point where the room “gets pressurised” and the music comes alive when the volume gets turned up enough ( but not too too much). Subs sure help. 
 

My system test

https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/3511772

Rock on 

@wsrrsw 

Thanks for sharing the playlist. 

@rvpiano 

This is a great sampler as far content goes, the Qobuz version does sound little bit lean. So I decided to pick up CD copy for $5, it would be interesting to compare how CD ripped version stacks up against the Qobuz version. 

Congratulations!

Over the weekend, I sat my wife down in the listening position and played her a few tunes and said this is why I’ve I keep at it. She smiled and walked out of the room 😁

@rv, I hope and wish you well, always. It is wonderful when you can enjoy the music through the rig. What I find the engineers, producers and the artists do right, and this requires a very fine ear, is the ability to take each individual track (studio recordings specifically) and synchronize it all, resembling each performer playing live, together, in sync......of course this is why I listen, for the musicianship. The composition is the music, the musicianship is the expressiveness by them, of the composition. Most listeners concentrate on the "sound" of an instrument/voice, or the "space" they are in, but the only "given", is the "performance". It is all important, no doubt, but realistically imo, the recording is always the bottleneck of what we are listening to. I say this because I also use headphones some of the time (ever get a headphone rig?). Of course, the speaker / room / system set up, is crucially important. My rant is over. Enjoy! MrD.

Thank you.  I used to have a bunch of classical CDs from BMG music! I had a few Living Presence.  Prokofiev, Nutcracker suite. Compared well with the Living Stereo series.  I had forgotten about them.  I have no physical media anymore. I will look them up.

I too think my system is real good!  I've said that about 10 times!  The streamer and DAC upgrade plus switching to Qobuz was a good improvement. Enjoy the music!

@mrdecibel 

All the best to you as well.  
I do have a pair of headphones. Probably not the quality of yours. 
I don’t listen to them much anymore.

. . . I remember once in the late '90s I had the house to myself for a few days and I did a rare sampling of a cannabis product and then I put on Lou Reed/Rock And Roll Animal and cranked it way up until I thought the speakers might explode as it  played through the guitar intro track to Sweet Jane and then Sweet Jane, and before Heroin had completely played through, I thought, "I've finally got it."  It was a great feeling. . . .

@mrdecibel 

What I find the engineers, producers and the artists do right, and this requires a very fine ear, is the ability to take each individual track (studio recordings specifically) and synchronize it all, resembling each performer playing live, together, in sync....

Ah, but that’s the complete opposite of what Mercury did for the Living Presence series!

When you have a full orchestra of say 100 players, it is impossible to individually place a microphone for each player.  Mercury took the opposite approach and just used three microphones in a line, for left, centre and right.  These were mixed down for stereo records and later for CDs by adding the centre signal to both left and right channels.  Much later, their SACD releases contained all three original channels but as DSD rather than PCM.  (When I play the SACDs, my preprocessor adds the centre channel to left and right because I chose not to use a centre speaker)

Once Mercury had the microphones set up and the recording equipment (either tape or film) set for maximum volume, they did no further mixing or synchronisation.  The conductor and orchestra did the rest, with a contribution from the venue!

So the recording is an unadulterated version of a real performance from a listening point just back and slightly above the conductor.  Regular concert goers quickly learn what a real unadulterated orchestra sounds like in a real acoustic.  The recording engineers for Mercury, and these days for 2L, don’t interfere in any way with the artistry of the performance, once they have the equipment working properly!

I very nearly attended a Mercury original performance in 1962, when to quote Mercury’s notes, "Antal Dorati ... electrified a capacity audience at London’s Royal Festival Hall with a stunning performance of Bartok’s Bluebeard’s Castle." which was sung in Hungarian.  I still remember the soprano Olga Szonyi cutting through the entire orchestra towards the agonising end.  Mercury shortly afterwards hired the Watford Town Hall for a recorded re-run, using 35-mm film as the sound medium.

This performance has just been re-released (again) in March 2025 ...

@Richardbrand

+1 

I find the best recordings are done this way. They get the venue / ambience correct. Like you are in attendance. 

I was reading an album cover recently... the notes went on and on about was a great recording this was, the great hall it was recorded in and how it captures the ambience and hall so well. I started listening... it was terrible... there was no ambiance. I went back to the notes and read on... there were diagrams how they erected partitions between individual and small groups and placed microphones. I don’t know what these idiots were smoking... this was exactly the opposite of what they were advertising. 

On the other hand one of my favorite albums is by Joe Jackson (not classical) Body and Soul. He went out looking for a venue that would be part of the recordings... found an all wood stage. I can’t remember the rest of the details...I think minimally miked.  But from the first notes you hear the venue as an integral part of the performance it sounds like you are in the audience... with exceptional sonics. 

@richardbrand, as this thread is based on Mercury recordings, and classical for that matter, I likely should not have said anything at all, as I totally agree and concur with everything you said. "Multi Track" recordings are what I was referring to, as I listen to and have been involved with multi track recording (studio stuff). Sorry, I should have specified that.....my bad

@rvpiano , I asked about headphones, as you created a thread about having an interest in a great headphone system. I have a few studio headphones, all closed back (Sony, Denon, Audio Technica), as this has been my preference so far, however, I do own a Headroom Max, which has brought me glorious music. Possibly old school by now, but I enjoy it. MrD.

Sorry, two critiques.  First, Janos Starker's cello just doesn't sound right to my ears—it's lean and dull—in Tchaikovsky's Variations on a Rococo Theme (#3) from this collection. If you go back to the original recording this excerpt comes from, the cello sounds much more natural. Second, the left and right channels seem overly separated, with literally nothing or a very thin center image—this is not good mixing.

This Mahler No. 2 recording is one of the best I’ve come across for testing.

@lanx0003 

The criticisms I’ve heard of the Mercury sound in general are that it is ’dry’, it lacks a lot of warmth from the venue!  That probably stems from the relatively close positioning of the microphones in relation to the conductor?

I have heard that a well-known British label is known to increase ambience by playing the original recording in a church, and adding reverberations back in.

Getting back to your recording, Gilbert Kaplan was a successful businessman, and got himself taught to conduct just to play this one symphony of Mahler’s.  He was pretty darned good at it too, toured the world as an amateur and gave over 100 performances.  He then learned the adagio from #5, doubling his repertoire.  

I have CDs of his performance with the London Symphony Orchestra, which definitely does not use a small orchestra!

I remember hearing a stunning performance in the Melbourne Concert Hall.  (Melbourne and Sydney have intense rivalries, including Concert Halls!  Whereas Sydney’s has a world famous exterior but a bare-bones interior, Melbourne’s has no real exterior, being sunk into a huge hole by the Yarra River, but a sumptuous inside).  There was a standing ovation, and the guy next to me turned and said he "wished his stereo sounded like that".  I had just been thinking "this sounds exactly like my system".

Mahler 2 was the main work played after the $100-m refit of the Sydney Concert Hall, mainly done to fix the acoustics.  Much of the refit is sculpted wood paneling to break up reflections!  It worked ....

@mrdecibel 

"Multi Track" recordings are what I was referring to, as I listen to and have been involved with multi track recording (studio stuff)

No worries!  I will point out that 2L in Norway do something similar to Mercury's approach for their stunning multi-track recordings, although they typically move the orchestra into a rough circle around their microphone tree.  They often record in large churches, but that is to keep any wall reflections distant, not for the reverberation.

I would be very interested in any light you can throw on how multi-microphone recordings are mixed, especially with digital techniques.  For example, are PCM signals combined as raw PCM, or is there some intermediate higher resolution format?

I’ve been playing several Mercury CDs lately. I find the three microphone approach works very well in capturing an orchestra.  I used to think the Mercury sound was dry and brittle, but on my current setup it’s not antiseptic, but full-bodied and natural. I concede there is a lack of hall sound, but it’s as though you’re sitting in the middle of the orchestra, or in the first few rows of the auditorium.
The overall effect is believable. 

@richardbrand As a conductor without formal conservatory training, Mr. Kaplan faced significant criticism and rejection from the classical music world during the early stages of his conducting career. However, his dedication, scholarly commitment, and effective performances ultimately earned him praise even from Mahler scholars.

This recording - performed by the Vienna Chamber Orchestra and the Vienna Singing Academy Choir, and conducted by Gilbert Kaplan - features Mahler’s Symphony No. 2 in an arrangement for a reduced orchestra of 56 musicians, approximately half the forces specified in Mahler’s original score. Even when played through my modest system, the recorded sound is excellent—full of nuance, pinpoint instrumental clarity, and well-balanced timbral accuracy across strings, brass, winds, keyboards, voices, and percussion.  I try to avoid delving into musical interpretation (because it is kinda subjective) and simply enjoy the sonic marvel of the performance.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful experience at Hamer Hall in Sydney. It will definitely be one of the destinations on our list in the hopefully near future.

@lanx0003 

Thank you for sharing your wonderful experience at Hamer Hall in Sydney. It will definitely be one of the destinations on our list in the hopefully near future

I had to look up Hamer Hall!  It is the new name for the Melbourne Concert Hall and seats just under 2,500 people.  I was lucky enough to go to the opening concert season, which was Saint Saens opera Sampson and Delila.  At the time I was working in Tasmania and commuting from Melbourne, which had a pretty stuffy reputation, compared with racy Sydney.  I had no idea the performance was controversial until the Act 3 Bacchanale when most of the cast stripped naked and slowly formed a giant human pyramid.  And this was the grand opening of Melbourne's new concert venue, built to rival the Sydney Opera House.

My favourite performance is from Copenhagen.and controversially had two directors, one from Israel and one from Palestine.  They also swapped the storyline so the Palestinians were persecuted by the Israelis.  This would be my most powerful argument against streaming - I have the physical silver disc but I cannot find the performance anywhere else.

The Sydney Opera House has two major performing venues, one for concerts and one for opera.  They were also swapped over early in construction, and the bigger became the Concert Hall which has just had a major refurbishment.  The smaller space is a bit small for opera, so in summer we have the Handa Opera performing on a temporary stage floating on Sydney Harbour with views of the actual Opera House.  Sits twice as many people so commercially viable.  Lots of DVDs have been made of these Handa productions ... Handa season is about six weeks so try and time your visit!

@lanx0003 

Oops, I said my favourite performance of Samson and Delila is from Copenhagen, but it is actually from Antwerp.  Not even the same country ... and it can still be found on the web!

@rvpiano Happy you are listening at a reasonable volume. It does make a difference, doesn't it?

@rvpiano 

Thanks for sharing your excitement over this album.  I don't often listen to classical music but I am on track 10 and boy what a treat.  

I checked my level and the dbs are mostly in the low 70s with the peaks hitting low 80s which seems to be a nice level to really appreciate the music

@richardbrand , sorry so late for a response. Admittedly, my classical music listening participation is quite less than the posters here, on this particular thread. I am a rock and jazz guy, 45/45...A great example of an exquisite "studio, multi track" recording, would be "Welcome to the Pleasuredome", an album which is uncanny for its work put in by Trevor Horn, the producer. Likely not an album you would listen to (I might be wrong), but I am a huge fan of this debut studio album by FGTH. It is also a great soundtrack to fine tune a system. Somewhere on here, I started a thread on this particular recording....My best, MrD. 

@rvpiano, I hope you are having a great day, are able to relax and enjoy your music listening. My best, MrD.

@mrdecibel , Why, thank you very much.  The same to you!  
I’m currently waiting for a technician to install my new DAC (the same as the old one but with a volume control function on it.  I’m unable to untangle my system by myself.

@mrdecibel 

A great example of an exquisite "studio, multi track" recording, would be "Welcome to the Pleasuredome"

Thanks for this pointer - I will explore!

Seems to me from the dates that this would have been an all analog recording, released just after the launch of CDs.

What I am most interested in finding out is how digital PCM multi-track recordings have been re-mixed digitally, especially for rock music.  Each PCM sample is a whole number, and mixing involves taking a fraction of one sample and adding the result to fractions of other samples.  In general, there will be rounding errors, whether the whole number is thought of as binary or decimal.  The more tracks, the more the rounding errors, I would have thought

@richardbrand A giant, stripped-naked human pyramid in a big, sensual dancing scene between two lovebirds from a biblical story doesn’t quite click. It might be a modern interpretation of a legendary opera - interesting.  I do like the music, though, and all the opera singing by Elīna Garanča in the other acts (Romantique, DG).  

At the time I was working in Tasmania and commuting from Melbourne, ...

One-way by ferry is more than a 10-hour trip. How do you manage the commuting part? Is there a flight option?

Solid information and observations.  To my ears, in particular too many 70s and 80s recordings and their mastering were done by assassins wielding gaggles of microphones and mixing boards with scores of tracks.  So many musicians caged in lifeless cubicles with artificial hall reverb clumsily infused post production.

I’ve recordings that sound like they were pieced together with glue and a Ouija board.  Non cohesive jumble, compressed with diffuse sound stage.  Listen to the incomparable Patrick Williams’ Threshold.  The whole thing is acoustically impaled by uneven reverb, overdubs and clutter.

Some have figured it out… again.  This new series with Jan Willem de Vriend, amazing on all levels.

@lanx0003 

One-way by ferry is more than a 10-hour trip. How do you manage the commuting part? Is there a flight option?

My commute was weekly!  There are frequent flights - these days it is a common weekend escape for Melbourne folk.  I had a cabbie who worked out my routine, picked me up on Monda morning for the airport, same on Friday evening.  Gave him two good fares to bookend his week! The company lent me a car in Hobart.  Long term airport parking was free, back then.  There was no frequent flyer lounge in Hobart, so we just helped ourselves from the bar in the manager's office.

Incidentally I noticed that Tasmania is entirely missing from the world map inlaid into the floor of Salt Lake City's airport so you are forgiven for thinking there would be no flights there!

just a hard won observation, even with the simple 3 microphone Decca Tree, the first alteration of the event is microphone selection…very quickly followed by tree placement, Carry on !

@rvpiano so very glad for you !

Thanks!

I’ve just initiated one of the best fixes I’ve ever done.  I swapped my Benchmark DAC 3B for the Benchmark DAC3 HGC with a volume control function on it.  I’ve never had a volume remote control before.  I’ve always had to get up and down to change volume (due to the fact that I have an upgraded vintage 1990’s preamp.).   
What a difference!  Every recording has a unique dynamic character.  Now I can effortlessly change the sound to fit the performance.

@rvpiano This is awesome. Congrats. Remote volume is a great thing, as everything we listen to has a different output level from one other. I know you experimented with bypassing your CJ preamp (going passive) and preferring the preamp. Your dac is a very good preamp, with gain, so I am wondering if you will try and bypass the CJ again, going direct from the dac into the power amp. By doing this, you will eliminate the CJ line gain stage, a 2nd volume control (that of the CJ). and one less pair of interconnects. The gain settings on the dac are numerous (internally adjustable) so I am not suggesting stressing over it.....but I would, again, eliminate the CJ for a bit, and use the dac as a preamp straight into the AHB2. For phono listening, you would connect the tape out (rec out) of the CJ, into an analog input of the dac, using the CJ as a phono preamp. I am terribly sorry for bringing any of this up, but this is what I would do....I am a terrible person....In the meantime, enjoy! My best, MrD. 

@mrdecibel 

First of all, you are certainly NOT a terrible person.  You’ve certainly been a very helpful person to me. 
Believe it or not I’ve been getting some incredible advice from ChatGPT.  It was that AI source that suggested I obtain the new Benchmark DAC with remote audio capacity.  AND, they outlined the best use of the volume control on the preamp. They suggested that I turn the volume control way up on the CJ to between 2 and 3 o’clock thereby getting the best sound from the high quality tubed preamp. Then, adjust the Benchmark DAC accordingly. The results are wonderful.  Best sound I’ve yet gotten.

@rvpiano 

Happy to hear your audio journey going well. I had tried many streamers too. Tried all, the Eversolo models, up to the A8. Tried the Hi Rose 130 Transport and really wanted to like it. I did not like the way that streamer rendered treble. The Aurender N200 was perfect to my ears. After a while I got the itch and got a good deal on a new N20. I love this streamer so much,it’s my end game for now. 

@dwest1023 

Thank you for your kind words.

How does the N20 stack up against the N200?

Should have read: How does the N200 stack up against the N20?

@rvpiano 

The N200 is a fabulous sounding streamer, as you know. I was very happy with mine after trying about 5 different ones. The N20 is weightier and slightly warmer. I prefer warm over neutral or bright. There is not a night a day difference. I don’t think the N20 is anywhere near a 6K difference when it comes to sound.

@dwest1023 

Thanks for the response.