Synergistic Red Fuse ...

I upgraded my pre-amp, without incident, 9 hours ago, with the black fuse.

I played a couple of songs from Patricia Barber's "Modern Cool" SACD and the bass has now begun to firm up.

Things are looking up !

Monk is Picasso, Klee, Pollack all rolled into one gleaming, delightful, attention grabbing musician.  Even when I toss on records I've listened to a hundred times before I find myself guessing where his next strike will be,  or hitting the rewind button to zero in on a phrase that continues to stun me. I know every single note that Led Zeppelin played verbatim, but nothing surprises me now or then. Monk still grabs my attention, almost every tune is new each time I play it. 

nyame:
Tomorrow evening - Wednesday, I believe the preamp will be in a relaxed state and the music will have the wonderful qualities of better flow, more detail, less fatigue, and more emotional involvement . This will become it's maximum at the 100 to 150 hour mark. Somewhere along the line your brain will quit analysing the changes and just hear more meaningful music.

Well with the Black fuses and Black outlets in place, I am listening to really old Jazz. Vivaldi - 1725!  Yep it is all there in a two CD set  of his trio Sonatas with continuo. Starts with a formal very strict phrase and then slowly but surely tears it up, and puts it back together with at times frantic and vitueostic playing. Is that a very young Jerry Lee Lewis I hear on the harpsichord :)

With the fuses and outlets in place I now can clearly hear the emotion the harpsichord and lute are adding to the three solo instruments. Before it was like listening to Cream with Jack Bruce playing an unplugged electric bass.

Antonio Vivaldi - Trio Sonatas Op. 1: CPO records

Begona Olavide - Salterio: MA Recordings (MA recordings are recorded using only two mikes and only acoustic instruments. Sold direct.
This is Spanish - Moorish music. Both of these two CD have a knockout version of "LA Follia".  Real tear the house down music.

David Pritchard

Hi oblgny,
When I became interested in jazz and listened with new found  attention Oscar Peterson was my main pianist. As time passed and with ever increasing exposure /awareness Monk just pulled me in. Peterson is an enormous talent whom I'll always respect,  Monk just goes straight to my soul.
Charles, 

One thing that has struck me as I added the SR Black fuses and now at about 150 hours with the Black Outlets is that undesirable artifacts that I previously attributed to various forms of physical resonance (speaker, room, component, etc), were more accurately lying in the supply of electrical power to my system.

I mentioned here the other day that I believed adding the Black outlets to my system in-effect gave me a new set of speakers, and it is the absence of these resonant artifacts that makes me feel this way. My current speakers are really quite modest, but in this respect they remind me of my old 180 pound WATT Puppy sixes, or how I imagine such heroically inert speakers the various Magicos are.

With these Black fuses and outlets, transients start and stop on a dime and the bass definition is crazy good. I've been playing albums that I've owned through countless equipment swaps that, while I love them for the performance, I always felt the sonics--and here I'm focusing on the lowest registers--were inherently simply too fat and sloppy to ever be rendered with agility and anything approaching realism.

Here I'd submit one of my all time faves, Holly Cole's "Temptation." With each additional application of SR Black devices, I've gotten a much better impression of what's actually going on in the mix. The extension and depth is as good or better than before, but the texture and nuance of the bass line and drums is so much better delineated now. There are a number of other troublemakers that I have been throwing at the "new" system just to see (and hear) how they are rendered (hello first Fiona Apple CD, hi Alanis Morrisette, what's happening, Bruce Cockburn?)

Anyone else have this sense?

Tonight's listening session was all blues. Jefferson Airplane, Taj Mahal and The Grateful Dead were sounding wonderful and groovy. Couldn't keep my foot still. I don't know who the guitarist for Taj Majhal was, but man, that guy could shred that darned thing.

OP 

It's even worse than I thought with this thread.  The OP is a guy with  78 year old ears claiming to have Xman level hearing and talking about how Ted of Synergistic Research deserves a Nobel Prize.

Do you have any clue how big a fool you're making of yourself posting this stuff every day?

Unfortunately for you, I was at Newport and heard the ridiculous Synergistic presentation.  I was front and center for the A/B test.

Because I studied psychology and know subliminal marketing techniques like NLP, I could write exactly what your used car salesman friend tries to do.  However, it will probably be over your head.

On a primitive level, it should have been easy for anyone to see.  Use great actual electronic devices from companies like Berkeley, Soulution, and Magico...then throw in your tweaks to make it seems like they are somehow the reason for great sound.  Usually he does this with his traveling Macintosh amps and Magico speakers.  This time he was able to partner with a local dealer and get even better gear to make his "tweaks" look good.

Forget theory though and arguing about it.  Let's just cut to the chase.  How many of the shoe box sized passive devices did you buy after hearing the demo?  You claim to be so amazed by the room and attribute it to Synergistic Research, so exactly how many of them did you buy?  I found no one who bought one, but maybe you're the first.

Do you even know physics and realize how big those boxes would have to be to attenuate bass frequencies on a passive basis?  If not, maybe you should have walked right across the hall and listened to the foremost room correction expert speak during one of the educational sessions.

I realize this is falling on deaf ears with you (literally), so I'm done with your nonsense and delusion.  Spend your money however you want and keep living on this thread touting what a great purchase you made everyday.  

As for others who commented, it's flattering that some went through my past posts and found I liked Steve McCormack and then researched where Steve likes certain fuses.

I know Steve and even been to his house to pick up one of my 5 amps I've had from him.  I spoke to him at CES this year and we correspond through email.  I won't speak for him, but he has NEVER recommended Synergistic Reaearch fuses to me EVER.  He has also never mentioned ###hour breakin needed for a fuse. 

If he ever did, I would strongly disagree, so don't try charade tactics to make everything he says attributable to me...especially when he has given ZERO endorsement to the brand we're talking about here.

Since you don't want to break open SR devices, here's a great exercise you can do.  Buy the SR outlet and then buy a Furutech outlet.  You won't even have to break into anything to see the obvious difference in quality.  This will also explain why someone like Steve McCormack might like Furutech fuses, but has never mentioned anything to me about SR.

Andynotadam  7.12.16

"One thing that has struck me as I added the SR Black fuses and now at about 150 hours with the Black Outlets is that undesirable artifacts that I previously attributed to various forms of physical resonance (speaker, room, component, etc), were more accurately lying in the supply of electrical power to my system."

Same here. The only difference is that I ALWAYS blamed my Audioquest  Cheetah interconnect cable.  I promise to apologize to this cable before the end of today. It is not perfect but it has been a loyal friend for close to a decade and deserve respect.

Andynotadam   7.12.16

"One of my all time faves, Holly Cole's "Temptation."

Your honor " I am guilty as charged. I just could not help my-self. She was so beautiful "

The point of the McCormack comments is he clearly recognized the significant improvement in sound quality with use of premium fuses in place of the stock fuse. No one suggested he was specifically referring to the SR fuses.

The derogatory and very personal comments towards Frank (Oregonpapa ) are childish and completely unwarranted. I don’t understand such bitterness and vitriol expressed due to a difference of opinion on the merits of SR fuses/products This is bizarre.
Charles,

Ah, the timeless dance of enthusiasts seducing the trolls.

labtec:

Jeepers, who peed in your Cheerios this morning???

Labtec   7.13.2016

"Synergistic Research use great actual electronic devices from companies like Berkeley, Soulution, and Magico...then throw in their tweaks to make it seems like they are somehow the reason for great sound."

 Now Mr. Labtech, it seems reasonable to me that Synergistic Research would wish to display their products with high quality equipment. I don,t see
anything wrong with that. Did you expect them to display their tweaks with a BOSE RADIO?

Well, as a matter of fact, they did use a BOSE RADIO to display their tweaks at RMAF 2013. Here is what Stereophile magazine had to say:

"My initial impression, with everything in the system, was that despite the radio's glaring limitations, the room-filling size and depth of the soundstage were pretty amazing. As Denny (President of Synergistic Research)
progressively removed the HFTs he had positioned around the room (including two at the front and back of the radio)  xxxxxxxxx the sound stage shrank, bass lost impact, and music became localized in the radio, and most important, the listening experience became less compelling. Having that I wish I could have heard this experiment on a far more refined system."

Labtec you had a great opportunity at Newport to hear the Synergistic Research tweaks in some of the most refined equipment in existence.  BUT YOU BLEW THE OPPORTUNITY.

Here is a very different take at what happened at Newport. This review is by one of my favorite and most trusted reviewer. 

"SR was demonstrating in a HUGE room, the largest at the SHOW. The holographic imaging was spectacular. When they moved the SR products out of the room, and disconnected others, the image became small flat movie screen like you'd see at the smaller movie theaters. When the products were moved back into the room and everything reconnected, it became like a huge, 3-D presentation at a good IMAX theater"

This latter review was written, not for gain or money, but as a note to some of his friends who were unable to attend the show. This man is a  real gentleman, who is very respectful of other people, even those with opinions that differ from his.  Ladies and Gentlemen give it up for OREGONPAPA. 

Here is some good advice. This thread has been read by thousands of
people who have now read all the palpable nonsense you have written in two separate posts. You stand naked under bright lights for all to see. Your unprovoked derogatory personal remarks directed at Oregonpapa is disgraceful, crude, mean, and WRONG.

The only good thing to come out of this wretched affair is that several hundred thousand people now know, not who you are, but what you are.

^^^ nyame ...

Thanks for coming to the defense.  Its much appreciated. 

I've spent some time this morning trying to analyse what would motivate someone with "labtec's' pristine qualifications (audiologist, psychologist, sales trainer and financial planner) to make such a convoluted attack on not only me, but Ted Denny, SR in general and upon others posting here. 

What is it about little black fuses that disturbs Mr. "labtec" so? For him to take the time to write twelve paragraphs attacking this thread leads me to believe that he's suffering from something serious such as schizophrenia ... but of course if I did that, he'd most likely deny it and accuse me of addressing "the wrong guy." :-) 

Here's a guy (labtec) who owns a pair of mega-buck Wisdom speakers attacking me for buying an SR Black fuse for the grand sum of $120.00. Here's a guy with the great Wisdom speakers who has them jammed up against the wall, sitting on a hardwood floor, with a huge, reflective flat screen TV between them, and then accuses me and others of not being able to hear ... or of hearing things that are not there.

Obviously, the Wisdom speakers have not imparted any "wisdom" into the psyche of Mr. "labtec."   I used to sell Wisdom speakers when I was selling high end audio equipment, therefore, I can attest to how good they are. Mr. "labtec" is actually wasting the speakers. A shame, really. 

As for my 78 year old "Xman level hearing;" I can hear a lightly struck triangle at the rear of the orchestra. I can hear the metallic shimmer on the very edges of Shelley Mann's cymbals. I can hear the uvula vibrating in the back of Dean Martin's throat when playing "Dream With Dean."  (well maybe I was exaggerating slightly with the uvula thingie.)

But then, I ask the question ... how can anyone who "knows Steve McCormack" be wrong about anything? As we all know, just "knowing" someone makes one an expert in all the fields Mr. labtec claims to be an expert in (audiologist, psychologist, sales trainer and financial planner). 

Just a quick personal note for Mr. labtec:  Surely you have a playground somewhere near your abode, do you not? If so, contained in that playground you will find a sandbox. Please seek out the sandbox, sit in it ... and pound sand. 

OP

Note to Oregonpapa regarding Taj Mahal's mystery guitar player…Jesse Ed Davis became a friend of mine when he was hanging out in Honolulu in the early 80s, borrowed a 60s Vibrolux from me and produced some stuff for a band I knew...a true guitar genius and cool dude who had more soul and technique than nearly anyone I've heard perform anywhere (he used to sit in here and there in Honolulu clubs)...left us way before his time…look him up.

I have a friend who is an owner of a well regarded hifi "salon" who had a pile of SR Black fuses hanging around from some show or something, and after noting my suspicion about SR's inexplicable technology, he leant me a half dozen or so of the things about a month ago (he refuses to use them as he says they "blow too easily"…his words). I stuck them in my tube amp, my preamp, and the power supplies for my dac and phono preamp, reversed them after a couple of weeks per mythological theory (2 blew in my amp…I guess you actually do need to ignore SRs ratings). I even had them switched out by a friend without my knowing for sure that they were in or out so I could sort of "double blind" them. During this exercise I tried hard to be as objective as my previously described "Bully and Coward" demeanor will allow, and the results were as follows: These things don't provide any audible improvement over whatever fuses I had in my gear (my original Littlefuses and other nameless fuses are all back in their former places), and they're sort of dangerous (they blow, literally). I even recorded my system with my digital recording stuff using a great mic, to see if the same recording at the same level with and without the SR mojo in play could reveal anything (asked some well regarded audio pro friends to suffer through these recordings with similar head scratching non-results…many thanks)…I tried man…I gave the things a shot…my conclusion is SR fuses are fooling many into paying 500% of what non "quantum" fuses cost for a placebo that provides membership in the I Think I Can Hear Things Club, which may actually be worth it to the SR fanboy base. Sorry kids…I tried.

There are quite a few perfectly good reasons why some people don’t get good results or the results they’re looking for with some audiophile tweaks. Now, I’m willing to list those reasons. Are you sure you want to go there? ;-)

wolf_garcia ...

Thanks for the info on Ed Davis. Much appreciated. Over the years, I've had the good fortune to meet some really great guitarists, Ted Greene being one of them. Kudos to you if you know who Ted Greene is. He actually played for me and a large group of my friends at my home several times. We lost a great one with Ted's passing. Here's a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDuee6blvj8

On your system and the SR fuses: I have no way of knowing why they are so effective in the majority of the audio systems of folks posting in this thread and why they have no effect in your system or mapman's system either. All I can say is, I have posted nothing but the truth as I see it and hear it.

Why did the fuses fail (blow) in your system, and so far (knock on wood) have not failed at all in mine? I did my system completely with SR RED fuses before switching them out for SR BLACK fuses with no failures at all. That's a total of ten fuses, all of which worked perfectly. 

geoffkait ...

I, for one, would be interested in your assessment as to why some folks get good results and others don't.  I don't think its the quality of the equipment being used, as we have posters here with really high end stuff .. to wit, labtec's Wisdom speakers. Could it be the room?

One thing I have noticed with several of the fuse naysayers, is that they have not payed attention to speaker placement. That leads me to believe that perhaps they haven't paid much attention to the rest of their setup as well.

 As we crazy audiophiles have discovered, everything .... everything makes a difference one way or another. A good example was a guy on another audiophile site who said I was crazy for thinking fuses could make a difference. I asked  him to post a picture of his system and he did. It consisted of an old Pioneer receiver and he had his speakers jammed right up against the wall. Go figure.  

OP

Oregonpapa 7.13.16

I've spent some time this morning trying to analyse what would motivate someone with "labtec's' pristine qualifications (audiologist, psychologist, sales trainer and financial planner) to make such a convoluted attack on not only me, but Ted Denny, SR in general and upon others posting here"

Why did Mark  David Chapman shoot and kill John Lennon, a man who promoted love, peace and beautiful music?  

Fortunately we can still enjoy a few miracles like Jackie Evancho.

There are many things we will never understand.

^^^  Beautiful response, nyame.

And yes ... Jackie Evancho is definitely a miracle. And its a tribute to you that you recognize this.

The first time I saw Jackie sing, she was only ten years old. Her voice was so mature and beautiful that I got goose bumps on my arms and the tears started to flow from my eyes. I realized that she was an old soul. All I could think of was the miraculous gift that God had bestowed upon this beautiful little girl. The way that she expresses herself with her hands as she sings is a miracle in itself.  Simply amazing. 

Take care ...

OP

Its possible the folks who hear a big improvement had some issue with their other fuses to start with. How just re-seating a fuse alone could change the sound has already been mentioned.

I have no problem with people saying a product can improve the sound or did for them.

But when I hear only that it WILL improve your sound (or else there is probably something wrong with you), that is when I disconnect because that is never a realistic thing to assert.

These things always depend. The possible outcomes when making a change is always better worse or none.

My outcome was none. So was Wolf’s apparently.

Its possible that we are biased one way but obviously others may be equally biased the other way.

It always helps to avoid absolute pronouncements and keep things real.

Especially when there is no well understood objective reason for claimed performance.

What sounds good or better or not is ALWAYS just an opinion, no more or less valid than any other and frankly there is little in these fuse discussions but opinions since the facts are few and far between when it comes to establishing any truly unique value.

The point is nobody really knows why these fuses would sound better. That does not mean that they can’t, only that it is not a foregone conclusion by any stretch that they will.

Trial periods provide a much needed insurance policy for what may as well be seen as "magic" for all practical purposes, but does not change the facts.

mapman
13,492 posts
07-13-2016 3:49pm
Its possible the folks who hear a big improvement had some issue with their other fuses to start with. How just re-seating a fuse alone could change the sound has already been mentioned.

Actually that is not true, I mean other than there being some minuscule probability, let’s say 4%. The only other person who opined that there could be issues with the original fuses is the other troll, uh, I mean skeptic. Not to mention we already figured out we can eliminate variables like original fuses, fuse holders, placebo effect, expectation bias, the weather and anything else someone might wish to bring up by careful and thorough testing. You’re just grasping at straws. Look within yourself, Grasshopper. Stand by for the reasons why some audiophiles get lousy results with certain tweaks.

Dear Grasshopper ... err, I mean Mapman:

Nowhere in any of my posts will you find the statement "WILL improve your sound (or else there is probably something wrong with you)"

As I stated in several of my posts in this thread, I started out with stock fuses in all of my ARC electronics just like everyone else. I replaced the stock fuses with HiFi tuning fuses and heard a definite improvement. Not earth shattering, but an improvement none the less.

Then I replaced the HiFi tuning fuse in the REF-3 with an SR RED fuse. That was a major improvement that not only did  I hear, but my unsuspecting friend Robert (Mr. Record) heard it too right off the bat without knowing what the change was. That was the fuse that started this entire thread. 

Once the entire system was switched over to the SR RED fuses, they came out with the BLACK fuses. So, I started replacing all of the RED fuses with the BLACK fuses one by one. This was a real game changer. Mind boggling as a matter of fact. And at this date, I still have one more RED fuse to change out in the CD player. 

The improvement is not an imaginary figment of my feeble 78 year old brain. Dude, I've had some of the best listeners and an actual reviewer hear my system and they all comment on the improved artifacts such as sound stage, depth, clarity, musicality and the overall realism being obtained. And trust me, it was no slouch in these areas before I started with the fuse program. 

The system has progressed significantly over the past year with the fuses being just one change. Also included are the SR Level 3 PC's, Von Gaylord IC's, Von Gaylord speaker cables ... and SR's HFT room treatments. Combined, all of these products have created what I referred to as an amazing music producing machine in my listening room. 

Again, and I mean no disrespect here,  why you and a couple of others cannot hear what these products are doing is beyond me.

How about this: Order a ten-pack of SR's HFT's and place them around your room as directed, then report back with the results. The effects of the HFT placement in my room were NOT subtle. There's a 30 day return policy. Nothing to lose remember. 

OP

I was at Capital Audiofest last week.

No mention of fuses came up but the magnetic wire company that has a lot of fans here  had a room.

It sounded fine but no better than the others and certainly not best in show for me.   I have not seen others indicate it was either.

Their stuff was playing in perhaps the smallest room there with perhaps the largest speakers and the magnetic products in play all over, even inside the amp supposedly.

They demoed with and without plug in magnets for comparison. 

Unfortunately they forget to play the same tracks when comparing.

I asked the guy there how it worked.  He essentially  said it makes the electrons flow the way they want them to.

So you'll understand my skepticism especially after getting no real results with the Red fuse.

Not saying I'm right and others wrong.   Just reporting my findings like anyone else. 

If I'm missing something that I do not hear or understand, I can live with that.  :^)

I'll stick to things I can understand and that are not shrouded in mystery and hype.   I'm sure others will do the same.

With all the kerfuffle hereabouts, I almost forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed listening to Marc Ribot and the Prosthetic Cubans (Los Cubanos Postizos) last night, a wonderful and wonderfully recorded album built around Cuban beats with compositions by Arsenio Rodriguez. The clarity and tone of Ribot's guitar is quite stunning. Check it out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwK2x0AhsMk

Switching gears big time, I closed out the evening with Aimee Mann's DVD "Live at St. Anne's Warehouse" which features Julian Coryell (Larry's son) on guitar. Fun!!!

Mapman wrote,

"I'll stick to things I can understand and that are not shrouded in mystery and hype. I'm sure others will do the same."

Actually fuses are not shrouded in mystery and hype although I can certainly understand why you would say that. In fact, there is not much mystery at all, as I've pointed out on more than one occasion. 

andynotadam    7.13.16

I ordered Marc Ribot and the Prosthetic Cubans Cd from amazon.com.It is expected on Friday.

I still remember the first time I heard a Jazz guitarist play the beautiful "yellow Bird" song. It was so beautiful that I still vividly remember it today after several decades.

Marc Ribot and the prosthetic cubans is eerily similar.  Thanks for sharing

the Prosthetic Cubans is an awesome band name thanks for sharing that for the name as well as the music!

Mapman and Wolf tried the SR fuses and they heard no improvement in the sound quality of their systems.  That's fine and I can accept that without any problem whatsoever. All I care about is honesty,  people reporting what they heard good or bad. I appreciate the same regard for my listening impressions. 

No product will satisfy everyone and most certainly results will vary amongst a population of listeners for a variety of reasons,  no problem accepting that.  Over the years I've been the fortunate recipient of numerous loans of audio products from generous audiogon members.  These include some rather expensive cables and tubes. They were interested in my opinion and feedback. Some sounded exceptionally good and some didn’t. Not every product had positive benefits in my system and I said so. 

For what ever reason the SR  Red and subsequently the Black fuses provided obvious positive impact and I felt compelled to share the joy with my fellow audiogon members. They apparently have worked out well for many on this site and not so for the very few. It they do nothing for you just send them back.
Charles, 

i finished going through all the product literature I brought home from CAF. Everyone makes superlative claims to help get their product attention. Why should fuses be any different. Heck I can afford a few of these fuses easier than most anything sold there that I liked. And they surely are not likely to make anything sound worse. So have at it. Superlative claims are a dime a dozen.  Some might even be true. 

^^^ ... mapman ...

There's an old saying in sales ... "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." 

With that said, sometimes the steak is even better than the sizzle. 

OP

There's a Doughnut Shoppe in NYC that displays a sign that reads, We Serve the Best Coffee in the World. Mapmann, are you trying to tell me me it's NOT the best coffee in the world?

^^^

Some people are into great coffee like we are into great sound. I'm into both.

Check this out:

www.sweetmarias.com

Home roasting is the way to go if you really love coffee.  Only the world's finest beans from small family owned organic farms will do the trick.

Guatemalan coffee is my favorite.  

And believe it or not, there's the occasional person who cannot tell the difference. They are the ones who buy Folgers because its cheap, or they think the burnt charcoal swill Starbucks sells is great coffee. 

Its amazing how a fresh brewed cup of fine home roasted Guatemalan coffee goes with the morning listening session.  

OP

Anyone here tried the new Audio Magic Beeswax SHD Fuse? Currently have a SR Black Fuse installed in my DAC and am in the market for another fuse for my integrated amp. Might try the AM Beeswax SHD if there is enough positive feedback.

I was a salesman for a few years early on ( and a half decent one) but a software/systems engineer for the last 30 or so.

So I can swing both ways in that sense.

I find the same basic tenets that made me a decent saleperson also serve me well as an engineer.

The main thing is determine the problem people are trying to solve and provide them a product or solution that solves it.  Sometimes it exists and can be sold, sometimes it has to be built for the first time.

I'm not finding a big problem when it comes to fuses these days so there you go.

I’m definitely more of a meat than sizzle man.

And yes there is a lot of great coffee out there and chances are no two people are likely to agree upon which is the best.

Maxwell House is pretty darn competitive I find these days with some coffees costing 10X as much, if properly brewed.

Saturdays after the gym about 11:00 - 2:00 or so is my time I often get to sit down with a good cup of coffee and really enjoy my music.

Namaste!

zacho
5 posts
07-14-2016 9:54am
Anyone here tried the new Audio Magic Beeswax SHD Fuse? Currently have a SR Black Fuse installed in my DAC and am in the market for another fuse for my integrated amp. Might try the AM Beeswax SHD if there is enough positive feedback.

I had the Audio Magic Super Fuse, which evolved into the Beeswax Fuse as far as I can tell. I used the Super Fuse in my pure tube Class A Woo Audio Headphone amp. It was the bee's knees. Try it, you'll like it.

mapman
13,500 posts
07-14-2016 10:39am
"I was a salesman for a few years early on ( and a half decent one) but a software/systems engineer for the last 30 or so.

So I can swing both ways in that sense."

Maybe so, but you swung and missed on my Best Coffee in the World post. 

Mapman opined,

"And yes there is a lot of great coffee out there and chances are no two people are likely to agree upon which is the best.

Maxwell House is pretty darn competitive I find these days with some coffees costing 10X as much, if properly brewed."

Woooosh! 

Yes I never thought much of Maxwell House in the past.  Has it gotten better or is it just me?

I have a Beeswax fuse in the pre that replaced Audio tuning Supreme with fantastic results. Only trouble it needs a very long burn in.

^^^  *lol*  ^^^

Mapman ...

I've worked as a 100% commissioned salesperson for most of the past 53 years. In my field, its important to understand personality types. There's four basic types with combinations mixing the four.

Engineers are a breed of their own. Its almost impossible to get them to make a decision on the spot. Many of them suffer from "analysis paralysis."

The best approach with an engineer is to leave him/her with all of the paperwork/contract and let them think it over, over night, then call them the next day for their decision. Many times they will say ... "Oh, everything looks great. Its all signed. Come on over and pick the paperwork up."

Salespeople who try to pressure an engineer into a decision before he/she is ready to make the decision are dead meat.

Each of the four personality types has its biggest fear. With the engineer, its the fear of criticism. That's why they measure 15 times and cut once. That's also why they take a doubting posture when it comes to things they can't measure. 

Of course there are varying degrees and a mix of personality types, but normally one type will be dominant in each person. If a salesperson is to be successful, then its important that he/she understands the differences and learns to "sell" to each individual type. 

The engineer, because he/she carefully analyses everything to death, usually ends up with a nice, comfortable retirement because they have planned for it. They are financially frugal and very intelligent people. Also, they drive their spouses crazy. :-)

With the engineer, its the fear of criticism.

Not sure about that. The best engineers strive for accuracy and avoid making mistakes that will have consequences to someone down the road.

Almarg is a good example here.
Also having a law background puts him in a class of his own.

Read up about the Challenger space shuttle disaster for a textbook example. I worked in Huntsville Al. at the time down teh road from Marshal Space Flight Center where those engines were tested. My companies Computer Aided Design software at the time was used to design the shuttle. Human error not technology led to its fate. I was still a young pup but I witnessed how all the engineers I knew were totally shattered that day.

Mapman ...

As a general rule, each personality type has its main fear. Fear of criticism for the engineer type. Fear of being taken advantage of for the law enforcement type. Loss of social approval for the back-slapping salesman type. I forget the last one. But, these fears are with us all. Its interesting stuff and very important for folks who work with the public to know. ... especially people in sales. 

I used to be intimidated by the engineer type in a sales situation because they would ask so many minutia questions. I thought they were questioning my integrity. With me, it was that loss of social approval thing.

Once I learned that engineers CANNOT make a decision right after the sales presentation, and that they MUST "think it over," my closing ratio with engineers went up exponentially.

In most cases, the engineer type is going to interview at least several salespeople to get all the facts he/she can. These salespeople, not understanding the psyche of the engineer type, would pull out their hammers and try to beat the poor guy into submission in an effort to close the sale.

 Ha ... I'd just leave the paperwork overnight, let him/her dissect it to their heart's desire, then call them the next day to see if I could pick up the signed paperwork and start working for them.

I've been told many times by these folks that the reason they decided to work with me was that I was "so low pressure."

OP

When in product development, I worked with many technical marketing folks and always got along well with them, especially the ones who also valued integrity and accuracy. The best companies always place top value on that.

Also I will add that the creme of the crop when it comes to engineers have extreme confidence in their knowledge and abilities and fear little in that regard. Also pretty much true with the best in most any profession I suspect.

Mapman 7-14-2016 12:42pm
The best engineers strive for accuracy and avoid making mistakes that will have consequences to someone down the road.

+1.  A good engineer recognizes that it is almost always best to get things right the first time, for example during the design process, than to have to fix them later.

Although having dealt with countless engineers during the course of my career, as well as being one of them, my perception has been that there are many cases in which perfectionism tends to be carried to extremes.  And many engineers tend to be a bit too dogmatic and inflexible in how they approach their work.  All of which can result in the paralysis by analysis that OP referred to.

One thing I have never perceived, however, is any particular tendency among engineers to fear criticism.  In fact perfectionist tendencies and paralysis by analysis, in a professional setting, can be expected to often result in big-time criticism, when schedules are missed and budgets are exceeded.

One thing that worked to my advantage in my career was being able to recognize that different circumstances call for differing degrees of perfectionism, and flexibility in how different situations are approached.  With the choice of how to proceed often being made just by technically-based instinct.

In any event, my thanks to Wolfie for having taken the time to provide an additional data point on these fuses, in a manner that sounds like it was done with requisite thoroughness.

Regards,
-- Al
 

mapman
13,507 posts
07-14-2016 12:42pm
"Read up about the Challenger space shuttle disaster for a textbook example. I worked in Huntsville Al. at the time down teh road from Marshal Space Flight Center where those engines were tested. My companies Computer Aided Design software at the time was used to design the shuttle. Human error not technology led to its fate. I was still a young pup but I witnessed how all the engineers I knew were totally shattered that day."

My friend from school in the Aero dept. at UVa wound up as executive director of the Challenger disaster Investigation, the Rogers Commission. He was the one who didn’t allow Richard Feynman’s report to be included in the main report, from what I can gather, because they clashed personally and because Feyman was rather eccentric. Too eccentric for Keel, apparently. 

Its true that "analysis paralysis"  is a common plague historically, but in software engineering for example, modern Agile or iterative development paradigms address it.   

Older traditional  development paradigms often referred to as "waterfall"  development have fallen out of favor these days in most any progressive development organization. 

Waterfall development depended on thorough analysis of the problem up front to determine a plan for development.  That approach fails as problems become too complex to assess completely and accurately up front, leading to either analysis paralysis ie doing nothing until the analysis is complete or heading down a poorly understood path doomed to fail.

Iterative development is more agile because you attempt to build something based on the key known requirements regularly, like once every few weeks and then stop and reassess so what was learned can be applied effectively to the next iterative phase of development.

So analysis paralysis can certainly still exist but is far less problematic as a whole these days than in years past. 

Today's complex and fast moving world has no room for "analysis paralysis" in product development.

how would you compare the Sr black with the am beeswax shd? 

Al sez:

" Although having dealt with countless engineers during the course of my career, as well as being one of them, my perception has been that there are many cases in which perfectionism tends to be carried to extremes. And many engineers tend to be a bit too dogmatic and inflexible in how they approach their work. All of which can result in the paralysis by analysis that OP referred to."

Exactly, Al. 

Considering what Al said there, and considering the personalities of sales people who are happy closing a sale 50% of the time they make a sales call, or even less, its easy to see why so many sales people have such a difficult time selling to the engineer type. They're actually conflicting personality types.

Once a salesperson takes the care and the time to address the needs of the other person, understands the prospects motivation, and then points the prospect in the right direction, success usually follows.

Studying personality types really does gives a salesperson an edge up on the competition and imparts a lot of power to the salesperson during the sales process.

These are some of the differences in my business between a true professional and an also-ran. The most important attribute of all though is honesty to a fault.

There is a fine line between a professional salesperson and a con-man. A true professional in the sales field will never suggest or do anything that is a disadvantage to, or for, his/her customer.  A con-man may make millions by being among the greatest salespeople in the world, but they usually end up in prison. Think Bernie Madoff. 

OP