Synergistic Red Fuse ...
mapman 13,365 posts 06-03-2016 11:37am Tbg wrote, "Mapman, Wolf_garcia, Geoffkait, thank you for your unsoliced opinions. " To which Mapman replied, "Your welcome." (Spell checker autocorrect anomaly noted) Who exactly solicited yours then? How much do they pay? I could use a few extra bucks." Hey, I’ll take some of that action. My rate is $1 per solicitation. For unsolicited comments 50 cents. |
aolmrd1241 .... Thanks for your input on the Legacy Signature III's. With certain mods, and tube electronics, the Sig III's are a fantastic speaker that performs, at least in my system, way beyond their price point. Over the years I've had a multitude of speakers, including huge electrostatic panels Acoustat IV's, Martin Logan's and a variety of conventional speakers as well. So far, the Sig III's are performing better than any of them considering the overall picture. On the Legacy Focus's ... I love those speakers and have considered them in the past. I fear they would overdrive my room though. I was wondering ... what electronics were you using with the Legacy speakers? All of my friends who have them, including myself, have found that they really come alive with tube amps. We've all bought our Legacy's from guys who were using solid state amps ... and they just couldn't get the speakers to sound right, so they sold them to us. *lol* I think its an underground secret. I have a friend who has a pair of Sig III's in his living room being driven by one of Grover's modified Dyna Stereo 70's, and its pure magic. In fact, it was his demo of those speakers that convinced me to chuck the Martin Logan's and replace them with the Sig III's. He has the Legacy Focus' in his main listening room. Again .... magic. At this point in time, if one is patient, the Signature III's can be had on the used market for around $1800 per pair and the Focus 20/20's for around $2500. This would be for speakers in mint condition. In my opinion, its one of the biggest bargains in audio ... but again ... the only way to fly with these speakers is to use really good tube electronics. Hang in there. |
Oregonpapa, if you do eventually obtain a REL sub, be aware that when connecting it to many ARC models, including yours, there are some very important but VERY non-obvious considerations that are involved in how it should be hooked up. The second item below is especially non-obvious, while being VERY important. First, you would want to connect the sub at speaker-level, to the outputs of your amp, rather than at line-level to the outputs of your preamp. One reason for doing that is that is what REL generally recommends, but more importantly the line-level input impedance of most or all REL subs is only 10k (definitely including the T5, although the S5’s input impedance doesn’t appear to be specified). That is too low for your ARC preamp to drive without significant deep bass rolloff, with 20K being its minimum recommended load. Second, and even more importantly, when you connect the sub to the outputs of your power amp DO NOT connect the black (ground) wire from the sub to the 0 ohm/common/negative output terminal of the amp. In many balanced ARC amps, including yours I’m pretty certain, the 4 ohm terminal is what is connected internally to the amp’s circuit ground. Therefore the black wire from the sub’s Neutrik connector should be connected to the 4 ohm terminal of either channel (not both) of the amp. The red wire from the sub would be connected to the 8 ohm right channel terminal, and the yellow wire from the sub would be connected to the 8 ohm left channel terminal, assuming you would be using just one sub. Connect the main speakers to whatever terminals you presently connect them to. Also, see this thread. (Note, btw, that in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the OP in that thread, he meant "not optimal" when he said "optimal"). Regards, -- Al |
Yes it will be interesting to see how the Black fuse morphs in the sub as it breaks in. With my streamer, DAC/pre and amps, my first impressions after going Black were generally positive, but over time there were alternate moments of, "Where did all that bass come from?" "Where did all the bass go?" "Oh my dog, that's better than perfect--stay like that!" and so on. As I said above, my sub settings have been very stable over time, and any time I'm moved to change the level or crossover a notch, I end up back where I started so, with break-in, I will be interested to see whether I am moved to adjust the sub during the next few weeks as the fuse does its thing. Another observation about these fuses is that they seem to make each component you put them in more like themselves, assuming the components are well enough engineered in the first place. In the situation at hand, the Black fuse just seems to be enhancing the REL-ishness of my sub in my system. Off topic, a well chosen and well set up sub in a good room does do a lot more for the music than just go boom. In my experience, many people over-think things when doing set-up, and end up crossing over too high and setting the level too low. nyame: I believe the B2 has three fuses, one at the IEC, and two internal rail fuses on the board. Sorry. |
Andynotadam I cannot get to the the IEC without opening the box. When I do open the box I'll see how difficult it will be to get at the circuit boards. My user manual list the main fuse as 3.15ma but there is no mention of the values for the pcb mounted fuses. I interpret this to mean either they do not wish users to meddle around with the boards or that specialized tools are required. |
OP asked..."I was wondering ,what electronics were you using with the Legacy speakers? All of my friends who have them, including myself, have found that they really come alive with tube amps." Hi OP... When I had my Focus loudspeakers I was running them with a Music Reference RM-9 Mk.II power amp and a Music Reference RM-5 MkIII Tube Preamp.My digital source was an EAD transport and dac. I most certainly enjoyed the combo but ended up hearing some Merlin VSM-MM’s.and as they say... the rest was history. I sold the Legacy’s and never looked back. Of course a lot has changed in the past 20 years too. 8^) |
Oregonpapa Neil Gader's review of the REL S5 in the Absolute Sound is very encouraging. I have no knowledge of this relatively new model. The price is very attractive at $2500. ( I paid $2645 for my B2 in 2008 ). Neil Gader was the owner of a REL B3 for many years and is familiar with the brand. In my opinion he is one of the more credible magazine reviewers. The S5 is one of the best looking subs I have ever seen. Good luck! |
nyame: I saw the info somewhere in the last week or two, but don't have a link for you. It might have been in the long AVS REL thread. Maybe do a find search on B2 or fuse? My R-328 has a Class D amp and the stock fuse is 9 amps, so I used a 10A Black fuse. As others have suggested, I slightly up-rate aftermarket fuses after my BDP-2 instantly ate a Black fuse at the factory rating. |
Oregonpapa My previous post 6/3/16 remains valid. However last night I felt I should have another look at the G5 using factual criteria rather than relying on one writer's review. I kept wondering how REL could build a state of the art product, and sell it for $2500. Moreover I was uncomfortable about the of 70 pounds weight. Call me old fashioned but I cant help myself on this. I visited REL's UK web site and I am glad I did. I now believe that, if I were buying a new REL sub for myself I would buy the G2 because it is much better value at $3500 than the S5 at $2500. The most important factor is the S5 crossover frequency range is 30Hz to 90Hz. This disqualifies the S5 for your application. Your loudspeakers are full-range and extend down to about 22Hz. You need a sub that gives you the ability to cross over in the 20 to 30 Hz range. There is a lot of important acoustical and ambient information in the 16 to 30Hz range. ( not to mention pipe organ organ music). The stated frequency response of the G5 is -6db at 20hz and it drops like a stone because of the passive radiator design; at -24 db per octave. The G2 is -6db at 18Hz but more importantly its closed box design falls off at -12db per octave. This also plays havoc with the phase response of the G5. The G2 comes with a remote. To be able to sit in your listening chair and make adjustments to volume, crossover frequency, and phase IN REAL TIME is easily worth the extra $1000. The power amp in the G2 is a traditional class AB design rated at 450 watts RMS. REL has been using this design in the reference quality products for many years with great success. The amp in the G5 is described as Class D and has an output of 550 watts RMS. Unless your listening environment is very large, I do not think the smaller 10" drive unit of the G2 is a disadvantage compared to the much larger 12" cone area of the G5. |
Interesting hook-up info on REL subs. Here's my situation: ARC 210 REF monos driving Maggie 3.6Rs, 4 ohms. (+) to the 4 ohm terminal, (-) to the 0 ohm/ground terminal. I use a REL Strata at each amp. My dealer instructions for Neutrik plug and wires: Black wire to 0 ohm, twist the yellow and red together, connect them to 4 ohm terminal. This has been working--am I missing something? My dealer has a longstanding relationship with and the retail rights to Magnepan and Audio Research in MN, both manufactured here, in the Twin Cities. I sure am lucky on that. |
Jafreeman, I couldn’t find a schematic for your Ref 210 monoblocks, but given that it is a fully balanced ARC design that does not provide an RCA input, I suspect that in respects that are relevant to connection of a REL sub it is similar to the Ref 250 monoblocks that are used by the OP in the thread I linked to in my previous post. If so, whether or not a ground-related noise issue would arise connecting in the manner you described (which would be an appropriate way to connect the speaker-level input of a sub to most other amps), may depend on the happenstance of how circuit ground and AC safety ground are handled in the particular sub, and possibly also on how AC power is distributed to the subs and to the amps (e.g., via conditioners of various types, via separate dedicated lines, etc.). In the case of the OP in the thread I linked to, obvious symptoms did arise. But I suppose that even in the absence of obvious symptoms it is conceivable that sonics could be at least slightly compromised in situations such as yours. My suggestion is that you ask ARC which of the amp’s output terminals is connected to the amp’s circuit ground. If (as I suspect) the answer is the 4 ohm terminal, rather than the 0 ohm/common terminal, it may be worth your while to try connecting the black wire to the 4 ohm terminal, and the red and yellow wires to either the 8 or 16 ohm terminal. Using the 16 ohm terminal for the red and yellow wires, with the black wire connected to the 4 ohm terminal, should result in the optimal setting of the sub's level control being about the same as the setting you are presently using. Connecting the red and yellow wires to the 8 ohm terminal, with the black wire connected to the 4 ohm terminal, would necessitate a somewhat higher setting of the sub’s level control. Of course, continue to connect the Maggies in the same manner as you have been doing. Regards, -- Al |
Charles ... and others. The Newport Show was exceptional this year. It was a lot of fun finally meeting David. David and I had a good time in the Synergistic Research room. Nice to finally meet Ted Denny too. Here's some of my top picks ... not in any particular order: Best Demo: Synergistic Research. SR was demonstrating in a HUGE room, the largest at the show. The holographic imaging was spectacular. When they moved the SR products out of the room, and disconnected others, the image became like a small flat movie screen like you'd see at the smaller movie theaters. When the products were moved back into the room and everything reconnected, it became like a huge, 3-D presentation at a good Imax theater. I want all of their stuff!! Best Sound: Keep in mind that I judge primarily on natural musicality and an organic presentation. There may have been systems with more "wow," but for over the long haul, I'll take the systems that play music like its real. 1. Venice Audio ... Harbeth 40.2's driven with Naim solid state electronics and a Well Tempered TT. What wonderful speakers and sound. The tonal balance was right on the money and we just grooved with what was coming out of those speakers. At $16,000 per pair they kill some speakers I heard at the show costing in excess of 100k. 2. Sonic Flare ... Wilson Sasha speakers, Einstein electronics, Graham TT. Danny Kaey, who runs the room is a music lover and a record collector extraordinaire. I love the rooms where they will play the music that you bring into the room. The sound in this room was, to say the least, wonderful. Very natural with a broad, deep sound stage and a true to life presentation. People just didn't want to leave Danny's room. Its always like a party of music with everyone enjoying it immensely 3. Magnaplaner: They used three MMG's this year with one being a center channel. Okay ... the sound was really great, but its a planned presentation by appointment only. They only use pre-selected program material. No way would you be able to have them throw on some of the music you brought into the room. But ... very impressive, none the less. 4. Precision Audio & Video: Finally! Mike Slaminsky really put a good room together this year. Real music from a system consisting of equipment I've never heard of and can't remember ... but the sound was excellent. Could it be because that Mike has finally gone over to the dark side and put a turntable into his room? Nice! 5. Von Gaylord Audio: I'm saving one of the very best for last. Ray Leung, engineer, designer and a super gentleman was demonstrating his latest incarnations ... and how musical they were. Robert and I were the only ones in the room besides Ray and his wife and we just couldn't leave. The sound/music was that good. A very natural presentation with just the perfect tonal balance. I'd say Ray's speakers, as far as a natural presentation is concerned, are right in there with the Harbeth 40.2's that I alluded to earlier, but Ray's speakers are a lot better looking in my opinion. The finish is superb; reminiscent of the finish on the beautiful Venture speakers. Here's Ray's website if you want to see his offerings. www.vongaylordaudio.com So, that's it ... again, there may have been systems at the show that many would prefer over the ones I listed ... but I'm in it for the music, not the audiophile bull that just wears you out after awhile. Sorry we couldn't have met more of you who attended the show. Perhaps next year we can get coordinated and have a record playing party in Danny Kaey's room. I promise, you won't be disappointed. Take care ... |
The SR Black fuses are definitely directional. A friend and I switched the three fuses in the H-Cat X-10 MkIII amp from writing into the amp to all out. The sound was harsh and with no stereo imaging. My friend decided that the two top fuses were dc circuit fuses and that one needed to be the opposite of the other fuse. With the other fuses with writing going into the amp, we made the left one to out. This was much better, but ultimately we made the lower ac fuse go out also. I am not certain of this right now, however. Don't experiment with fuse direction at your loss. |
Charles 1 dad: I do hope you find a way to get to the Newport Beach Show. It is well worth the money and effort. Oregonpapa is absolutely correct. The Synergistic Research room was spectacular. The team of Synergistic Research and Scott Walker really know how to make a giant room sound other worldly good. Many good sounds this year- High End Electronics with Voxativ speakers, Acoustic Zen, High Water Sound with Cassaro Horns, Tonian speakers, Blue Light Audio showing the BIG Evolution speakers. I spent most of my time in the Synergistic, High Water Sound, and the Blue Light Audio Rooms just listening to great music tbg: Yep- the Synergistic Research fuse sounds better in one direction ( After installing the Black fuse now in 21 locations for three systems). David Pritchard |
I recently added two more Black fuses into my system. Now every component of mine that can has an SR fuse. They are all Black fuses, except my Modwright power supply, which has a Red fuse.The UPS guy delivered a package to me today while I had music playing. When he arrived he said, "Wow, I thought that was live!" That was the best compliment for my system that I have ever received. |
I just received my SR Black Fuse to be placed in my EE Minimax Plus DAC. I realised that the previous owner of the dac had changed the fuse to a Bussman Ceramic Fuse and wasn't running with the stock fuse as I had initially thought. Anyway, immediate impressions are positive. Music sounds more refined and detailed. A smoother presentation compared to the bussman and the music just sounds more coherent. Now for the burn-in i've been hearing/reading so much about. Do I have to have music playing during the burn-in or will it continue burn in so long as the dac is turned on? |
I'm just checking back in on my experiment with adding a Black fuse to my REL R-328. I'm maybe 40-50 hours in, slowed a bit by the Warriors and the Sharks being in the championships and a few days spent under the weather. In one of my previous posts, I suggested that the sound tends to "morph" with fuse break-in and, at some point, you get to the "That's fantastic! Please stay like that!" phase. That's where I've been for the last couple of nights. Notable albums have included John Hammond Jr.'s "Wicked Grin," an album of Tom Waits covers, Richard Thompson's "You? Me? Us?" (nude version), Rosanne Cash's "10 Song Demo," and Beck's "Morning Phase." "Wicked Grin" seems to have been recorded, at least in part, in a real space. On Get Behind the Mule, some of the percussion is supplied by a leather shoe shuffling and tapping on the floor which nicely illuminates the left side of the sound stage. I've never heard that so clearly and is of a piece with the overall improvement in all aspects of the sound stage. On Jockey Full of Bourbon, the shakers and the button accordion in particular are positively 3-D. An obscure album to be sure, but a must for any Waits fan. Put up to it by their wives, Waits himself participates in the fun and the rest of the band is great. The Roseanne Cash and Richard Thompson albums are very much unadorned, and not particularly "wet" in recording terms. I was mostly struck by increased yet completely unforced detail (i.e., lower noise floor) and a purity of tone that really made me sit up and pay attention in a relaxed way. Also, and Danny Thompson's double-bass playing on You? Me? Us?, always a fave, is simply stunning with the Black in the sub. I am a big fan of "Morning Phase" but it is a full-bodied recording to say the least and, of course, the acoustic is studio-created. I have never heard the bottom end to be so well defined, while exhibiting remarkable authority, weight and slam. The latter characteristics, combined with an uncanny improvement is soundstage organization, clarity and dimensionality sum up my reaction the the improvement wrought by adding the Black fuse to my REL. In fact, I found myself shaking my head several times in disbelief. I capped last night's listening session with a favorite cut from Mahavishnu Orchestra's "Inner Mounting Flame"-- You Know You Know. 70's analog tape hiss was present in all its glory, but the tune is sublime and it sounded fantastic... |
Oregonpapa In a previous post I erroneously referred to a REL G5. Unfortunately, no such creature walks the earth. The products under discussion are: 1. REL S5, reviewed by Neil Gader in the absolute sound. 2. REL G2 which I suggested as an alternative. The G 2 is a member of the "GIBRALTAR" series which sits at the very top of the REL Lineup. There are 2 subs in the Gibraltar series. The G1 which is top dog and the smaller and less expensive G2, designed for more moderately sized listening environments. |
Hey guys ... Check out my review of the Synergistic Research High Frequency Transducers (HFT). https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-research-hft-s Simply amazing! |
oregonpapa Yes I am recommending the G2 if your listening room is of moderate proportions. I would also suggest that you speak directly to John Hunter of Rel, provide him with specifics of your listening room and your stereo speakers. Ask him if the G2 would be a good fit for you. I found a review of the G2 about five 5 minutes ago. Here is the link: http://www.tonepublications.com/review/rel-gibraltar-g-2-sub-bass-system/ |
^^^ nyame. ... That was a good review of the G2. . Thanks for posting it. Wow, 90 pounds of muscle ... I love the description of how the sub expands the sound stage. I've heard that effect in a friends system with his sub. When set properly, you don't know the sub is in the system, but when he switches it off, there's a dramatic collapse of the sound stage. His system is the one peaking my interest in sub woofers. OP |
I have installed the Red Fuse in my pre-amp and aside from new speaker cables, it was a huge improvement I could ever imagine, however, when applying to the amplifiers it seemed to roll off the dynamics a bit to much for me, even to the point of the highs being rolled off, but I find that just one fuse in the pre-amp is a sweet spot for my system. |
quadmaster: Congratulations on the improvement. For your amp you might want to try the Synergistic Research Black ( better dynamics with a darker background and imaging or the SR-20 which has more dynamics than the Red but not as many other improved qualities as a Black fuse. Remember to give these fuses about 100 hours to fully settle in and to try the fuse in both directions. David Pritchard |
Regarding the SR Black fuse morphing with break-in, even installed in my REL sub the higher frequencies became harsh for a time and then we went to the "bass all over the place" phase as well. As a result, I was also moved to put micro fiber towels into the rear ports of my speakers which are, of necessity, rather close to the front wall. Oddly, I was also moved to simultaneously turn my REL down a notch in volume. Patience during break-in is rewarded by the sound I'm currently experiencing--smooth, liquid, detailed and extended. Might be time to bump the REL up a notch. We'll see. Sounds fantastic right now... |
andynotam: A nice summary of what to expect when putting the Black fuse in a self powered sub. I experienced much of the same you have so nicely described. After two weeks the fuse was fully settled in and the music had a better flow than the sub with a stock fuse. It is worth the effort to upgrade the sub fuse to a Black fuse. David Pritchard |
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wolf-garcia & kclone ... I'm beginning to get suspicious that there is a faction of naysayers that are attempting to denigrate a manufacturer that is providing extraordinary products and getting extraordinary results because these very same naysayers are actually sellers or manufacturers of competing products that just cannot make the grade, cannot compete, and in general, just don't measure up. Those of us who have taken the time in posting positive things about SR are posting because we are experiencing great results, not because we "work for SR" or involved in some nefarious scheme to "promote extremely profitable audio voodoo. " Do you guys have any idea how insulting your negative posts are to those of us who are sincerely trying to help our fellow audiophiles attain better results from their systems? Of course you don't. Why would you? Social cretins seldom do. Now go turn on your Pioneer receivers, listen to your Bose speakers and enjoy your eight-track tape machine and have a nice day. Sheesh! |
Wolf, I agree that the potential benefit of a fuse on our gear is dubious, but I disagree with assigning any responsibility to Audiogon to "protect" us from our interpretation of a manufacturer's advertising or from our interpretation of posts made by other members here. The approaches used are out of the marketing 101 playbook and pervade just about every product we consume. None of it is that surprising or unique. |
Well if there is a underlying scheme to promote the SR fuses someone forgot to tell me. There are certain products I’ve come across that genuinely impressed me based on pure high quality sound performance. Coincident components, Duelund capacitors, Elrog,Takatsuki and EMLwhich are superb 300b tubes and Ocellia cables. I’ve participated in forum discussions concerning these products to share my opinion on very exceptional audio products It’s no different this time with the SR fuses. I feel compelled to spread the word on such an excellent tweak that provides so much sound improvement for so little money. As I’ve said before it’s quite rewarding to read the many posts on this huge thread placed by very happy users. It’s a good thing when multiple music lovers are made aware of worthwhile products through a public forum such as Audiogon. I’m happy to be a contributor to others on this site. . Frank, thanks again for originating this informative and very friendly thread. Charles, |
Thanks Charles ... And for wolf-garcia and the other naysayers ... I am currently auditioning a pair of Von Gaylord's "Return of The Legend 7000" interconnects ($1,995 per meter pair) between my TT and phono stage. It has replaced a very fine Nexus FMS cable that was a total knock-out in my system. www.vongaylordaudio.com If I said that the Von Gaylord IC has transformed my vinyl collection, when in truth, it undoubtedly has, would you then, in return, say that I'm in the tank for Von Gaylord? Is that Pioneer receiver warmed up yet, wolf? :-) |
Charles1dad: I continue to enjoy my Ready Set Go 300 B tube amp. I am now comparing the Sophia Electric Carbon Plate 300"s to the Psvane 300 WE tubes. The Sophia have a little more punch to them and the Psvane more air and relaxation. The new Sophia Blue tubes arrived yesterday. Jeffery Catalano at High Water Sound uses these Blue tubes in his $45,000.00 amps! Of course a Synergistic Research Black will be installed in the amp tonight. Hello increased sonic bliss in 100 hours. David Pritchard |
