This morning we had a power surge. First one I ever experienced. It knocked out the sub woofer components of my GoldenEar Triton one speakers. In my ignorance I had them plugged into the wall rather than a surge protector. Soooo it blew the amplifiers in the sub woofers. It’s going to be a costly proposition: $500 for the amplifiers plus God knows how much the dealer is going to charge for coming to my house. (He’s very reluctant to do it, wants me to lug the 80 lbs speakers to the store.
Meanwhile, I’m having to listen to bass-less speakers for the foreseeable future.
So, the moral of the story is plug everything into a surge protector.
The Siemens BoltShield I have happens to be rated for both, and still has a relatively high clamping voltage and some activation time.
In terms of meeting the NEC requirements for new home construction either location is acceptable, so long as the SPD is rated appropriately, meaning, as far as the NEC is concerned they’ll offer similar protection for your equipment regardless of where it’s installed.
You may also install both kinds, and there’s some merit in installing them at sub-panels when the sub panels are particularly far away from the main panel.
So, I return to my main thesis, that the most important part of a surge protection strategy is having a whole house surge protector AND a highly effective plug in surge protector for your sensitive gear.
Once you have done that I think the question of whether your whole house unit should be at your meter or panel becomes less important.
@erik_squires Yes. As I read further, it appears that nothing gives protection in the event of an actual lightning strike. Storms in the area are best handled by unplugging your system. Cheers.
@bigtwinNever said otherwise, but most damaging surges are not direct, and I'm definitely not home about 80% of the time there's lightning around the home.
I meant to say that I use a Trip Lite everywhere except my PC because I have an Uninterruptable Power Supply.
You are saying UPS automatically does surge protection?
I just got the Trip-Lite Isobar. From what I understand Surge Protector Power Strip 1700J Protection does not offer surge protection but Tripp-Lite does because something to do wit the 3 status lights
@erik_squiresYes, it was Garth Powell who left Furman and went to Audioquest.
I also use a Niagara 1200 and have had many brownouts and complete power losses from transformers going out in the neighborhood and all of my equipment is fine (lots of new construction).
I’ve tried Tripplite and Brickwall and the Niagara is the only one I couldn’t detect a difference in regarding soundstage and dynamics. My Cullen power boxes have bettered the Tripplite and Brickwall in the same regard, equaling the Niagara, but doesn’t sound as clean as it. YMMV.
@immatthewj What does switching off the breakers do. Don’t you want them on so they offer protection by tripping?
If you switch them off, don’t you lose their protection and allow current to flow through without impediment?
@vinylshadow , I guess I wasn’t clear. I manually trip the breaker so the circuit for my audio system is turned off. (Kind of like unplugging the components but easier.) I don’t know if a massive voltage spike would jump across a breaker that was tripped, but I would think not.
Turning off a branch circuit breaker at an electrical panel is not the same as unplugging the equipment from the wall outlet. Distance...
Take a Square D QO single pole 20 amp breaker. In the open position the two contacts are about 3/4" apart. A several 1000 Volt lightning transient will easily jump that divide... An unplugged power cord from a wall outlet is a lot further than that...
@immatthewj I believe you are defeating the protection that breakers provide by tripping them. Best to unplug your mains cables from the outlets.
@vinylshadow there is a comment up above by @jea48 and he actually addressed my question of whether a massive voltage spike could jump across an 'open' breaker, and once again, I was wrong, as @jea48 states that, 'Yes, it can, so best to unplug.'
However, I am not sure what you mean by
defeating the protection that breakers provide by tripping them
If I am not mistaken, the protection that a breaker provides to a circuit is that when the circuit is overloaded with too many amps the breaker reacts to the heat generated by that overload of amperage and then it trips and opens that circuit and then everything powered by that circuit is without power. So how does me manually tripping that breaker possibly defeat the protection the breaker offers?
I’ve ordered the Furman PST-8 unit to protect my new subwoofers once they are installed.
+1 on that, @rvpiano , I am going to be right behind you. Are you going to use the cord that comes with the PST-8, as I think it is an 18 gauge cord, or are you going to put a heavier cord on it?
Turning off a branch circuit breaker at an electrical panel is not the same as unplugging the equipment from the wall outlet. Distance...
Take a Square D QO single pole 20 amp breaker. In the open position the two contacts are about 3/4" apart. A several 1000 Volt lightning transient will easily jump that divide...
@jea48 , would a several 1000 Volt lightning transient be like a direct hit?
@erik_squires , after years and years and years of putting it off, I think I am about ready to pull the trigger on a Furman PST-8 myself. I note that it comes with an 18 gauge power cord--is there any down side to using a heavier aftermarket power cord with it?
@jea48 , would a several 1000 Volt lightning transient be like a direct hit?
NO. A high voltage lightning transient event lasts no longer than the blink of an eye, at most a few microseconds to milliseconds. For that reason a good SPD must absorb, shunt, divert, a high voltage transient to ground in a nanosecond or less.
Nothing will protect from a direct lightning strike. A direct lightning strike can vaporize a tree.
NO. A high voltage lightning transient event lasts no longer than the blink of an eye, at most a few microseconds to milliseconds. For that reason a good SPD must absorb, shunt, divert, a high voltage transient to ground in a nanosecond or less.
@jea48 , thank you--I have learned a lot from you in the past and I continue to do so. I am not trying to beat this horse to death in order to get the answer I want, I am genuinely trying to learn as much as I can, so would the kind of voltage surge/spike that could jump across a tripped circuit breaker be protected from by a surge protector? For example, by the Furman PST-8 that has been talked about in this thread? Thanks again.
Well, this is interesting, I am looking at the picture of a PST-8 on Amazon and it shows a detachable 3' cord, and then I am looking at a PST-8 on Sweetwater and it is showing the power cord hardwired into the PST-8. Hmmmm? (The PST8 from 'Zon costs about $20 more.) I guess I'll order the one from 'Zon and unless someone on this thread advises agsindt, I think I'll grab a heavier cord that is 3' long. I think I'll order this one in 3' long:
@immatthewj What does switching off the breakers do. Don't you want them on so they offer protection by tripping?
If you switch them off, don't you lose their protection and allow current to flow through without impediment?
@vinylshadow , I just re-read the entire thread to make sure that I was going to order the correct product and in the course of that re-reading I went through this post by you again, and when I said I turn the breaker off I meant that I manually trip it and this does the opposite of "allow current to flow through without impediment" as it actually completely impedes current from flowing through the circuit under normal circumstances.
However, Jea informs me that a massive voltage spike/surge could jump across a tripped breaker and this does not offer the level of protection that I thought it did. I think, however, it may have been sufficient to protect against the type of surge that the OP of this thread experienced. I hope I cleared up what I meant on that.
as I read the responses here and your original post, it seems clear you should have a protected outlet at each speaker
An inexpensive product with an equipment warranty would be the Pro series fromAPC one for each speaker total of around $60 or less
if your house wiring is correct, and you have a surge, the units *clamp* the voltage, fail the unit in off mode. replace with another or send unit in toAPC for replacement
message me if you need more detail, or would even like a call to clarify.
hope your repair goes smoothly!
so would the kind of voltage surge/spike that could jump across a tripped circuit breaker be protected from by a surge protector?
If the high voltage event is short, therein not lasting more than few milliseconds then it should. Though I am not familiar the Furman PST-8 SPD. Can it react in one nanosecond or less?
FWIW I spent some time looking if a 6KV lightning transient could jump an air gap of 3/4" and never really found any definitive answer. Answers were all over the place...
I did find this, but it’s not for a high voltage short duration lightning transient. I do know a lightning transient can jump through an air gap of 3/4 of an inch though.
Here’s an example of where an SPD will not protect.
During a high wind storm a big limb from a tree comes down on a 7.9KV (approx) to ground high voltage power line causing the power line to come into contact with the overhead low voltage 120/240V line that feeds a house’s electrical service. The high voltage line may blow a high voltage fuse or trip a high voltage breaker in a substation if it’s contacting the bare grounded neutral conductor of the overhead triplex but no where near fast enough before damage is done. This is definitely an overvoltage event. Like a lightning direct hit the SPD will fail and not protect what is connected to it. I don’t think it’s going to matter who it’s made by.
FWIW you should be able to check with the Utility Power Company and find out what caused the surge, overvoltage, event that damaged your equipment.
@jea48- Furman with SMP will protect in both cases you mentioned.
It uses series mode protection (SMP) which has no activation time. My understanding is that they rate surge protectors for 5kV surges specifically because the expectation is that anything over that will jump incoming insulation to ground before it can enter the home. The series mode protection slows the event down long enough for the over voltage breaker to trip if still needed, such as the case in a continuous over or under-voltage.
I want to point out that we’re deep into the "what if" situations that are not the major cases. I remember when seat belts became required by law, everyone focused on "what if a plane lands on my car? What if a dinosaur swallows my Eclipse? How is the seat belt going to help me then?" despite the fact that seat belts converted about half of fatal car accidents to non-fatal accidents.
Living in South Carolina near the ocean I’ve had at least a dozen serious surge events some of which were near-misses but most were not. The OP has already discovered that the 2 devices not surge protected in his stereo were what went, I’ve had the same happen here, but with a laptop. I’ve also had my Furman’s turn off due to over/under voltages caused by nearby transformer events.
You are right though, the A’gon poster who had the roof blown off his living room was probably not going to be protected. How many of us have actually had that happen vs. the more moderate cases?
I was formerly in the high end computer sales business. There are only 2 "over the counter" surge protector brands that actually do anything . TrippLite has got a lot of mention above and I totally agree. The other brand in Panamax. If you don't have one of those I consider it a power strip. I'm sure there are Audiophile grade products that do a great job, I'm talking regular "over the counter" surge protectors.
Both Panamax and Furman are owned by the same parent company, Linear, LLC, which is a division of Nortek, Inc. In 2006, Panamax acquired Furman Sound, and since then, Furman has operated as a second brand within Panamax.
When I last looked, some Panamax high end surge protectors included the Furman features of SMP and LiFT.
You are right that a lot of snake oil in this business exists which is why I always turn to the Wirecutter article which is, as far as I know, the only third-party survey of surge protectors which actually includes 5kV surge testing.
The Furman brand has long been associated with professional sound gear as well as home gear.
My amplifier manual specifies not to connect to a power strip unless it is rated for High Current use. My question is are the Furman/Tripp Lite mentioned here capable for High Current use?
@erik_squiresthanks for the input. I ordered the Furman PST 8, if it doesn't work I can use it for the rest of the Audio/Video equipment, but hopefully, it will support my Amplifier.
I reached out to Furman support via their website and never heard back. I finally had the time today to call them and they advised that because Amazon isn’t an authorized reseller, there is nothing Furman can do to help me. So while they have a 12-36 month warranty, Amazon only offers a limited 90 day warranty. So if this is something you need for your setup, I suggest you get it from an authorized reseller.
.
PST-8 stopped providing surge protection after 3 months of use. The "Protection - OK" LED is no longer lighting up, but the unit is still providing power when switched on. The user manual says the unit needs to be repaired in this case because it is damaged/defective and no longer providing full surge protection. Furman customer support said they cannot help because Amazon is NOT an authorized dealer for this product, so there is no warranty coverage
I have some GE Triton 1's. Sounds like it might be a blown fuse. Isn't that what the fuse is for? The fuse is a little hard to get at. Instead of being able to access it from the outside, you have to unscrew the amp plate. I can't remember if you have to pull down the sock. The folks at Golden Ear have always been really helpful to me. I would talk to them about your problem. Might be an easy fix.
Checking the fuses is a great first step, but they aren’t really for protecting against incoming voltage surges. They are for protecting from shorts inside the gear. A damaging surge voltage may be 400V or higher but never exceed a few microamps, therefore no breaker or fuse tripping. For the same reasons the NEC now requires homes be surge protected in addition to the required breakers.
A power surge is often high voltage but relatively low total power and current. Takes a sustained current flow for that fuse to heat up and trip but it only takes microamps and milliseconds to burn out a semiconductor. Sometimes the static electricity you generate walking across a carpet can be enough, and would be if semiconductors were out of their protective enclosure.
When I was in manufacturing we’d even bring in humidifiers in addition to static straps to prevent chips from dying from static discharge during assembly and test. To put this in proportion, it takes about 15 milliamps to interfere with your hearts beating, but that tiny bit of high voltage current can wreak havoc on a lot of electronics.
If it were me, I’d 100% ask if they can repair just the amps. 😂 The amp is going to be a lot lighter and smaller than the whole speaker.
If you feel comfortable with a screwdriver you should be able to remove the sub amp and ship that alone to them. When you do, measure the resistance of the subwoofer coil with any cheap multimeter, and talk to GE techs first. If they measure like a dead short or infinity you may have bad woofers as well.
The amps have shipped and should arrive Tuesday.
Unfortunately, I am not the least bit handy, so I am going to suffer the expense of paying a technician from the dealer.
@jea48- Furman with SMP will protect in both cases you mentioned.
The 135V overvoltage shut down is a great feature.
Furman:
Another feature that is unique to Furman’s SMP circuit is automatic extreme-voltage shutdown. Extreme voltages are statistically the most common, damaging AC event.
.
Furman:
Extreme voltages are statistically the most common, damaging AC event.
Exactly. Again, an SPD will not protect equipment from an overvotage event. Can't help but wonder why more manufacurer's don't use this feature in their Type 3 SPD. I mean it ain't like they don't know.... They say in their warranty, damage caused by an Overvoltage is not covered.
And this ???...
Furman SPD Specs:
ComplianceC-UL (UL standard #1449, #1363)
ComplianceC-UL UL standard #1449 ???
1449, what Edition? (3rd Edition), (4th Edition)?
Compliance? Is the Furman SPD UL 1449 (Edition number) Listed, Certified, and or by a recognized NRTL third party testing Laboratory? The specs doesn't really say.
How may have read this? For those with Sub panels for the audio equipment where the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft from the wall outlet to the sub panel.
Type 3 - Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type and SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
At the very least a good quality type 2 SPD should be installed, connected, to the sub panel.
Sounds like a cord and plug Type 3 SPD will do little, if anything, for protecting audio equipment from a high voltage transient event if the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft long.
I want to point out that we’re deep into the "what if" situations that are not the major cases.
From Furman info:
Extreme voltages are statistically the most common, damaging AC event.
Seems like every other day there are bad storms from the southeast up through the northeast. In many cases the storms produce high winds that are bringing down high voltage power lines. ( Subject Not for homes in the direct path of Tornadoes of course.) I would imagine the downed high voltage power lines are not causing high overvoltage on the mains wiring of houses.
One thing that can help to limit the very high-voltage from entering on the mains wiring in the house is a 5 ohms or less to soil Grounding Electrode system. (Grounding Electrode System. The grounding connecting the Electrical Service Entrance Neutral Conductor to Mother Earth, making it the Grounded Conductor.)
Simple OHMS LAW... The lower the Grounding Electrode to soil resistance the lower the high-voltage that can enter on the house mains wiring.
.
2020 NEC
Quote:
250.4 (A) Grounded Systems.
(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.
End of quote.
.
A couple of years ago I experienced a weird event. Day was sunny, little to no wind. I just happened to be sitting at the computer all of a sudden the ceiling lights in the Den started dimming quickly followed by a loud buzzing sound from the two small speakers on each side of the monitor. Scared the heck out of me. Power in the house went off but only it seemed like a few seconds, then the power came back on followed by the loud buzzing again from the two speakers, followed by the power going off again. Then in just a matter of a few seconds it came back on. I jumped out of my seat but before I could get to SPD plug strip the power was back on and before I could pull the plug at the wall outlet the load buzz from the speakers started again. This time the power went off again and stayed off. I immediately went to the basement mechanical room and shut off the Main 200A breaker. I had no idea what had just happened...
I believe this was the Utility Power Company's piece of equipment that was turning the power back on. Three times it tried.
Thanks for the info. That makes sense. I'm running my T1's as rear surrounds and have them on a small APC surge protector. My front end electronics are on a Furman Elite 20, but my front T Ref's and power amps are just into the wall. Maybe I need to rethink things. I'm in Vegas. We don't get many thunder storms, but do get a few. I've never had a destructive power surge so far, but......
Sounds like a cord and plug Type 3 SPD will do little, if anything, for protecting audio equipment from a high voltage transient event if the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft long.
Well, that sure explains why Wirecutter’s testing with 5kV is useless... (not).
Based on other readings in the NEC, my understanding is that when the NEC includes minimum wiring distance as important they are considering the total amp interrupt rating. That is, if a short should occur, will it cause too much current for the upstream breakers. They are not making a statement about the effectiveness of the surge protector. They are saying you should keep it far enough away to ensure when the protector does work it won’t overload the breakers.
In the case of SMP devices, this is not an issue as they block current instead of encouraging it as MOV’s do.
Again, if you are questioning the effectiveness of Furman devices, I encourage you to read the full Wirecutter article and their testing methods. There’s no bone in that soup to pick.
So, I asked Pi.ai for a little help in reading, and Pi brought up 3 points worth discussing:
Type 3 Surge Protection Devices (SPDs) are typically installed at a distance of at least 10 meters (33 feet) from the main electrical panel or power distribution board for a few reasons:
To allow for proper voltage clamping: Installing the SPD at a certain distance from the panel allows it to effectively clamp down the overvoltage surge before it reaches the equipment being protected. This distance ensures that the SPD has enough time to react to the surge and divert it to ground safely.
To avoid potential damage to the electrical panel: If an SPD is installed too close to the electrical panel, there’s a risk that the surge energy diverted to ground by the SPD could damage the panel itself or the wiring connected to it.
To reduce the risk of interference: By keeping the SPD at a safe distance from the electrical panel, it minimizes the potential for electromagnetic interference (EMI) or other types of interference that could negatively impact the performance of nearby electrical equipment.
It’s been a really confusing read since some type 3 devices are permanently installed, and others are plug and cord.
If you use any series mode protection (Furman SMP, Brickwall or Zerosurge) these three points are moot. The low pass filter they incorporate (aka wave shaping filter) slows the super-fast rise time of a surge and reduces current flow due to the surge, and gives the surge protector enough time to disconnect if needed.
In essence the 10m requirement uses the wiring in the building as a RL low pass filter to ensure MOV’s downstream have time to react and won’t actually stress the AIR (Amp Interrupt Rating) of upstream breakers (kind of what I mentioned). However, series mode protective devices ARE RL filters (more L than R).
Other devices which are not strictly series mode like older Panamax may also include enough wave shaping to let the MOVs do their job. It's not exactly guaranteed, but you can't really get to very low let through voltages without some sort of wave shaping/filtering in place because MOVs alone can't clamp low enough and fast enough to keep the let through voltages down.
Type 3 - Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type and SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
At the very least a good quality type 2 SPD should be installed, connected, to the sub panel.
Sounds like a cord and plug Type 3 SPD will do little, if anything, for protecting audio equipment from a high voltage transient event if the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft long.
EDIT: if the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft from the electrical panel.
Based on other readings in the NEC, my understanding is that when the NEC includes minimum wiring distance as important they are considering the total amp interrupt rating. That is, if a short should occur, will it cause too much current for the upstream breakers. They are not making a statement about the effectiveness of the surge protector. They are saying you should keep it far enough away to ensure when the protector does work it won’t overload the breakers.
It would be great if the SPD tripped the circuit breaker, it won’t. The MOV(s) will fail first.
Actually a longer distance, length of the branch circuit wiring, from the electrical panel is a good thing for a Type 3 SPD. Ever wonder why many SPD’s usually have at least an 8ft power cord. At least many of the UL Listed, Certified, ones do.
* (When you read something like, Meets UL1449 does not mean the SPD is UL Listed.)
Also worth mentioning a type 3 SPD should not be used as the primary protection for equipment. A Type 2 should be installed at every electrical panel in the home. Therein main service equipment panel and at every sub panel there after. The Type 2 SPD is the first Line of defense. The Type 3 hopefully catches what the Type 2 misses.
From the Link below:
Issue:
Why does my Surge Arrest manual indicate the following?
CAUTION: Do not install this device if there is not at least 10 meters (30 feet) or more of wire between the electrical outlet and the electrical service panel.
Minimum install distance of 10 meters (30ft) from electrical panel.
Think of it as the NEC minimum distance between ground rods is 6ft. Further apart is ok (preferred), but not less than 6ft apart.
In the case of SMP devices, this is not an issue as they block current instead of encouraging it as MOV’s do.
MOVs don’t block current. They absorb, clamp, divert, high voltage transients to ground.
From Furman info:
The PST-8D all feature Furman’s SMP circuit which incorporates Linear Filtering Technology (LiFT) and a high current TVZ-MOV to insure that any electronic device (including televisions, projectors, CD-DVD players, or computers) is fed clean, filtered AC power.
Again, if you are questioning the effectiveness of Furman devices,
Again??? Why would you say that?
jea48 Posted:
The 135V overvoltage shut down is a great feature.
Furman:
Another feature that is unique to Furman’s SMP circuit is automatic extreme-voltage shutdown. Extreme voltages are statistically the most common, damaging AC event.
.
Furman:
Extreme voltages are statistically the most common, damaging AC event.
Exactly. Again, an SPD will not protect equipment from an overvotage event. Can’t help but wonder why more manufacurer’s don’t use this feature in their Type 3 SPD. I mean it ain’t like they don’t know.... They say in their warranty, damage caused by an Overvoltage is not covered.
That was meant as a a thumbs up for the Furman SPD .
Again as I said in my above post you question, I said:
The 135V overvoltage shut down is a great feature.
As for me questioning the UL1449 specs for the Furman I hoped you would have an answer. I couldn’t find a clarification. I thought maybe you might.
Again, if you are questioning the effectiveness of Furman devices, I encourage you to read the full Wirecutter article and their testing methods.
I did read it...
Wirecutter review:
Our top pick will protect most equipment in most cases. But the Furman Power Station 8 (PST-8) goes further, providing the best surge suppression of any model we tested—enough to give owners of very expensive electronics peace of mind.
It turned a 5,000-volt surge into just 40 volts, thanks in part to a shutdown circuit that turns off all power when it detects a surge. The Furman PST-8 actually let less voltage through in our tests than high-end series-mode surge eliminators that can cost hundreds more.
It turned a 5,000-volt surge into just 40 volts, thanks in part to a shutdown circuit that turns off all power when it detects a surge.
Can you please explain the above sentence what that means to you?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
