Surge protector

I run this wired/mounted external and away from the circuit box:

@jea48  , sorry if it seems as if I am beating this circuit breaker thing to death, but am I correct in assuming that the type of surge that the OP of this thread probably experienced would NOT have been one that would have jumped across a tripped breaker?  (As it stands, I unplugged my system after I finished up with it this evening.)

@immatthewj You are correct. and most surges capable of damaging electronics are invisible.

For some reason some people equate a power surge only with visible near by lightning strikes which cause visible arcing and sparks inside the home. The theory goes, well, if that’s what will damage my gear then there’s nothing I can do.

I wrote more about this here:

Yes, a panel mounted surge protector nearest the incoming power cables is best and has the lowest RL. Worth giving up 2 or 4 slots for. Next is wired, and as close to entrance of service wiring as possible.

The issue is that they are parallel devices that need to move lots of current to keep the voltage at the other breakers down.  High R or L makes them less effective.

Be cautions with web site reviews that provide links to buy the product.  They make money off the links and hence provide good reviews to products (or only review) that participate in the referral program.  Does not mean the product is not good, but there is a financial motivation with the review.  

@12many True. OTOH, Wirecutter is literally the only time I’ve seen actual surge testing done by a third party.

Every other review I’ve seen for surge protectors is basically just reading the online specs.

If you do happen to find actual surge testing done by others, please let me know.

The best remedy is NOT to listen to direct to wall purists and audio enthusiasts often contributing to discussions here. They are extremely delusional. There are may be X many reasons vs. just ONE safety you can't jeopardize. I have surges nearly daily and my relatively vintage Panamax is a REAL DOG when it comes to protection and voltage stabilization!

The discussion on this got me to dragging my feet.  I did go to Furman's site and I do see that Sweet Water is an authorized dealer, so I think I am going to call them and order a PST-8 from them, and it will be better protection than what I have now, which is no surge protection.

I will say that so far in my life I have NEVER experienced any type of surge activity that damaged any of my components, and once upon a time I never even used to unplug my gear during thunderstorm activity--I was happily oblivious. 

But there is a first time for everything.  I used to eat six raw eggs a day, and when someone told me about raw egg salmonella  I scoffed at that person.  I told him that I must have ate ten thousand raw eggs and never suffered so much as an upset stomach.  But then I thought about it soime more, and I decided that as many raw eggs as I had consumed in my life, I was probably due to get a bad one.  So I don't do that anymore.  As far as my system goes, for the immediate time being it is physically unplugged from the wall when not being used.

I will say that so far in my life I have NEVER experienced any type of surge activity that damaged any of my components, and once upon a time I never even used to unplug my gear during thunderstorm activity--I was happily oblivious.

@jea48

I think this may very well be location dependent. Living in SC, I randomly asked a few people who are NOT techno or audiophiles if they’ve lost equipment to power surges and everyone I asked had. One both in the Berkshires and in South Carolina.

I’ve lost gear or been present when gear went bad half a dozen times in my life. In the last 3 years alone I’ve lost a laptop (plugged in directly) and a cable modem to surges. When I moved in there was in fact a burnt out surge protector still screwed into an outlet, presumably where a TV had been. I lose power about 4x a year due to storms, plus we have about 3 power incidents per year not related to storms when the power goes out or my UPS on my computer has to intervene or my Furman shuts the power off to the stereo or both.

The differences in experience based on geographic location certainly justifies why readers may or may not wish to spend the money for the extra protection. I 100% understand that. What I don’t understand are those who only focus on direct strikes, cause that’s rarely been how I lost gear.

I should point out that blackouts are potential causes of surges, both when the power gets disconnected and when the power is restored.  As a child in Atlanta we lost many appliances when power came back on.

As far as power going out and coming right back on, or going out and staying out 5 or 10 minutes or an hour, that happens here in western Pa. all the time, and often there is no apparent reason, such as a T’storm, for it. In the past I did not unplug my equipment, and in the days of yore I did not even trip my breaker. That wave of paranoia started quite recently. Probably since I started reading posts here.

I will say that I have never experienced any component or appliance damage. But I am not arguing with you guys about it. I never started wearing my seat belt until I lost my drivers license for a year when I was 31, and I never was injured or killed in a car wreck, but I was lucky and I know that they save lives. I guess I have been lucky with my appliances and components as well.

@erik_squires 

Do “high end” power conditioners from Shunyata, PS Audio, Audioquest, etc, provide surge protection equal to the Furman? Or is their surge protection an afterthought compared to their power conditioner function?

I have an Shunyata that is about 6 years old.  Should I buy a Furman and plug my Shunyata into the Furman?

DISASTER!

I had the new amps for the subwoofer installed yesterday with the plugs in the wall socket, and things sounded great. I then plugged one of them into the Furman. The light on the amp flickered and then went out.  I plugged it back into the wall.  Same thing happened

No sound! Evidently the Furman caused the amp to stop working!

Yes, the electrician was here Tuesday.

No, the Extreme Voltage light didn’t trigger.  
‘And it’s still not working when plugged into the wall.

To answer the questions:

The amp itself is not working. GoldenEar is sending a complementary re-placement.

Yes, the light on the amp flickered and went out after being plugged into the wall..

The amp is internal. Can’t take a look at the back.

I bought the Furman from Amazon. Easy return.

I’m going to plug the amps in the f…ing WALL.

Nothing has gone wrong with blown components from electricity in several decades living here. I’ll take my chances.

However, my electrician is looking into a surge protector for the electrical panel.

Has anything changed, with your AC mains power that feeds your equipment? Any more thunderstorms, since you started reading Audiogon Forum posts? No...

What’s that tell you?

@jea48  , that I am becoming neurotic and needlessly paranoid in my old age?

Hate to hear your having such problems. It's hard to believe it would be because of your power conditioner strip.
Did both amps go out on your GE T1's?
I would definitely check the fuse(s) this time.  
When one of mine was brand new and first plugged in, it blew a fuse.  The light came on, flickered, and then nothing.
FWIW I decided to plug my fronts into a couple of Tripp Lite Isobar 2 plug units I already had.  My surround amps got plugged into a Furman AC 215A.  I haven't had a chance to really listen to the system to see if I notice any changes.  The way my system is set up, it's too hard to really do an A/B comparison.  I'll have to rely on my memory.  Now days, that's worse than my hearing:)

I’ve had the Furman PST-8 for just under 4 years, it is behind the stereo rack out of sight.  From reading this thread I decided to check that the "Protection-OK" light was on indicating all is well.

It wasn’t on so the unit is basically a fancy power strip at this time, with "maybe" some unspecified level of power protection left.  Funny enough, a much older surge protecter in the same receptacle which also has a power protection light is still working.

Called Furman and as mentioned earlier in this thread (I think this one) there is no internal fuse or reset mechanism.  Basically said try unplugging it for 10 minutes but don’t expect much.  No luck.

Only one amp blew. I didn’t plug the other one in.

Hi OP: I meant to say that I use a Trip Lite everywhere except my PC because I have an Uninterruptable Power Supply.

@erik_squires & all

1. Most of power strips with surge protection under Trip Lite, Furman brands referred here has EMI/RFI filters built in. If one wants to protect the amplifiers without adverse impact from the filters, what brand / model do you recommend?

2. Based on my knowledge, all the UPS in the markets disregard the types (standby, online, line-interactive) have AC->DC and DC->AC double conversions which gives you 'dirty' power supply.  Aren't you concerned at all getting the poor quality power supply by plugging your hi-fi gears into it, I wonder?  Is there audiophile grade UPS out there?

OP:

I’m sorry to ask, but any chance you could get a plug in AC tester like this one from Kaiweets or this one from Klein? Something is very wonky.  Test your outlet and test the resulting V at the Furman as well.

Of course, if you have a multimeter and know how to use it you should, but these will test the hot, neutral and the Kaiweets will even measure the N to G voltage.

PS - Those are direct links, not associate links.

@lanx0003

1 - There are EMI/RFI filters, and wave shaping filters. The first aren’t doing anything below 100 kHz and are in parallel, the latter aren’t doing anything below 3 kHz, which is well above the 50 or 60Hz line frequency. I really don’t understand why people think that the power pole is cleaner than the power they have at their outlet, it often is not. The last thing I want is a super conductor between my amp and the power pole, which is what seems to be the target for audiophiles. I want resistance. I want inductance. Enough at least to reduce noise transmission and ensure surge protectors have time to work.

In order of preference, Furman and Tripp Lite, but please do take a look at the Wirecutter article as the brand AND model matters. Furman without SMP/LiFT is just another power strip.

2 - Well, the type matters because it’s not always on. I use these strictly for my PC, Internet access devices and CPAP. The PS Audio units are essentially the same idea, with Class D outputs (and noise) and very short run time. 🤣 There are UPS with sine wave outputs which are still a lot cheaper than the PS Audio units, but for whatever reason, the sine wave units tend to have a higher failure rate than the stepped voltage output units.

@erik_squires 

Thank you for the suggestion.  At this point though, I’m going to leave well enough alone and go back to the way it was.

 I’m through!

If you don't have a whole house surge protector like the Seimens FS140, you're doing it wrong. Nothing else will do much, but SurgeX is probably the best outlet style protector. 

@squared80 -

For safety and reliability reasons whole house surge suppression units have a clamping voltage around 400V from neutral.  I can tell you from personal experience they don't do great with sensitive electronics. Lets talk specs though:

A 120V circuit goes up and down 60Vrms from the neutral, which has a peak of ~ 85V .

60Vrms = 60V * square_root(2) = 84Vpk

According to actual third party testing here with a 5kV surge the Furman PST-8 let an additional 40 Volts through. Lets do the math:

400Vpk - (84Vpk + 40) = 270V additional volts before clamping starts.

I quote the review here:

It turned a 5,000-volt surge into just 40 volts, thanks in part to a shutdown circuit that turns off all power when it detects a surge. The Furman PST-8 actually let less voltage through in our tests than high-end series-mode surge eliminators that can cost hundreds more.

@ozzy I've had similar experiences with a whole house unit.   The one piece of gear I lost was a laptop (Macbook Air with amazing battery life, so sad) which was the only piece of kit in my home that was not further protected by plug in strips.

@jea48 -

Class D amps may have a linear or a switch-mode supply in front of them. If linear, it’s just like any other amp and inrush current depends on whether the designer put an turn-on limiter on it or not. Larger amps really should have this feature.

If it’s an SMP supply though there’s almost always a smooth, low current ramp on until it stabilizes and turns on the amp portion.

PS - you can tell the difference by weight.  A linear supply is going to have a large transformer associated with it.

Dammit, I did the Vrms to Vpk conversion wrong..... my bad!

A 120Vrms has a Vpk of ~170V. 

Doh! It's been too long.

@jea48

I use the Siemens BoltShield, and the reviews are much better. The complaints seem to be from defective units that are DOA or people misunderstanding how the indicators work. Seems a lot of people received pre-owned/defective units from Amazon.

The reviews from Home Depot and Lowe's are also much better.