If properly placed and dialed in it shouldn’t.
Subwoofer Question
Could having just one subwoofer (REL T/7x)with the crossover set around 60hz pull my image to the side that the sub is on?
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Yes, this is why I often say a Stereo Pair of Subs, located near your mains, front firing to get the directionality/imaging that exists, i.e. where's the Jazz Bass Player? you get fundamentals, harmonics, and overtones, i.e. 60/120/180/240 .... diminishing in volume while increasing in directionality.
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To be clear, the OP was asking about imaging being pulled to one side. Properly set up and set at 60Hz the imaging and image placement from your main speakers won’t be affected (other than imaging improvements subs can provide) but you may sense more weight or pressure coming from the area where the sub is located depending on placement, which is a major reason why two subs are much preferred to one along with better dealing with room issues, lower distortion, etc.. But that’s separate from imaging from your main speakers, so voices and other instruments should still appear where they normally do, and if not then that’s a sub setup problem. |
the cone of the driver that makes the fundamental ALSO makes the overtones. They are not generated electronically, they are generated physically, relative to the fundamental whichever driver initiates a movement also makes the harmonics watch this short video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeEspQ6-Gzk&t=35s this video is longer but perhaps easier to understand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx_kugSemfY
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In case it helps, here’s a method to find the best locations for a sub(s) in your room…
Here are some steps from Paradigm how to adjust sub settings (after you’ve found proper placement) that I’ve found to be simple and effective… 1. Turn the Subwoofer Level control completely counterclockwise to its minimum; 2. Turn the Subwoofer Cut-Off Frequency control clockwise to its highest frequency (i.e. 150 Hz). 3. Set the Phase Alignment Control to 0°; 4. While you listen to a bass music or video selection in your primary listening area, have an assistant turn up the Subwoofer Level control until the subwoofer can be clearly heard; 5. Have an assistant try the Phase Alignment control until you hear the most bass. Your subwoofer and front speakers are now in phase. Do not change phase alignment again unless you move the subwoofer or the front speakers to a different location in the room or move or remove large items of furniture or room furnishings (i.e. carpet, draperies, etc.) 6. Turn the Subwoofer Level control completely counterclockwise to its minimum. 7. Turn the Subwoofer Cut-Off Frequency control completely counter-clockwise to its lowest frequency (i.e. 50 Hz); 8. Slowly rotate the Subwoofer Level control until you match the subwoofer output level with the level of your front speakers. Bass should be clearly audible, but not intrusive; NOTE: If using an A/V receiver or processor to control crossover setting, skip the next step and set the subwoofer cutoff frequency control to ‘Bypass.’ 9. Slowly rotate the Subwoofer Cut-Off Frequency control until you hear the best subwoofer/main speaker blend. If the sound is too ‘thin,’ you have not set the frequency high enough; if the sound becomes ‘boomy’ you have set the frequency too high. Adjust until you find the most natural balance. The sub should not draw attention to itself. In both cases you really should have someone else to help to get best results. |
Keep in mind that the 60Hz crossover setting isn't a cliff. There is some slope to that rolloff above 60Hz and those upper frequencies the sub is playing can be additive to the same frequencies the mains are playing. I'd set the crossover on the sub lower to something like 40Hz and see how it goes first. |
Just curious, what speakers are you pairing them with, how big is the room, what gear are you using and are you high pass filtering your mains? Some other info there could help to dial in your setup. @paradisecom is right in that a xo point @60hz doesn't stop your sub from playing and adding @240hz. Albeit probably 20db down or so, it will still add to what the mains are doing. Combinebthat with the likelihood of a 200hz room mode and you have some extra weight in that region for sure. I'd be willing to bet if you measured on REW a L with sub vs R with sub, the side where the sub is placed will be 1-2db higher under 500hz. Try centering your sub between mains, and perhaps lower your xo point. Other option would be using dsp to hard 4th (or higher) order filter to build that xo point to be a cliff where Gandalf shouts "You Shall Not Pass". After you try that for a weekend, just buy a second sub. I upgraded my single Rythmik 12" sub to a pair of Rythmik F8, and I now have perfect stereo imaging with very good separation with high pass filter around 150hz and raising spl measured down to 9hz in my small room. With bass notes, it's a strength in numbers thing.
-Lloyd |
Yeah given the space and how you have the speakers set up in that doorway so to speak, moving sub to dead center isn't really an option. Now, if you run your system with the sub off, everything is dead center perfect balance? Have you measured your system's response with the left + sub vs right + sub to see if perhaps it's a phase issue on one speaker causing a null at a certain frequency? I've seen that before where sub is perfectly set for one speaker, but absolutely detrimental to the other channel. It's maddening. I'm sure there's an acceptable setup option available. Also try pulling your sub away from the corner a pinch. If it is not only located on one side, but is corner loading that side, it'll be exasperating those heightened frequencies. But worst case scenario there's always another REL t7 on sale somewhere....... lol.
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A crosssover is not a cliff, so other fundamentals of slightly higher frequencies, lets pick 80hz (at progressively diminishing volumes) are simultaneously originating from the sub’s location, and each fundamental brings it’s own set of harmonics, 160, 240, 320, ..... ALL lower in volume, yet ALL higher frequencies, ALL becoming progressively narrower, more directional.... When the ear can locate a harmonic’s location, the brain can ’find’ the origin of the fundamental. Near crossover points, and as frequencies transcend, you can have both the sub’s cone, and the main’s woofer’s cone both making the same fundamental and series of harmonics. To retain directionality, to get the benefit of imaging, it is better to locate a stereo pair of front firing subs adjacent to the mains. I don’t llike ports, if so, also front firing to preserve/enhance imaging. My speakers have 15" woofers with monster magnets, to both move and stop the cone (they weigh 37 lbs each) I think of them as built-in subs. People with true subs and sub arrays certainly have more lows than me, but I benefit from the bass imaging they create. |
we read all the time that bass is omni-directional, but that's out in a cow pasture. the conflict, in a listening space is, one sub, let's get the extension but not know it's location two subs, let's get the benefit of extension AND imaging. array, well that's for the big dogs for true extension added to large full range systems My little 5.1 video system, I have 1 sub with a 1000 watt amp, right next to me, facing the TV, primarily to get Jurassic Park Dinosaur Stomps ... |
If your mains are rated to ~44Hz anechoic, then they cab be benefitting from some room gain, as well. That, coupled with the subs crossover set way to high and you'll have a problem. For proper handoff from the mains to the sub, you'll probably find that the crossover will be much lower than what it is now. Probably something in the ~30's Hz range. In addition to that, if you get the crossover set properly, you can then increase the volume a click or 2 to aid in finding the lower bass notes that you might not be hearing now. Try that after you get the crossover finalized, though. |
@emuagogo No. Just…no. If the sub is properly located and calibrated it will not pull images toward the sub, and if it does that’s because of very poor setup by someone who has no idea what they’re doing. |
