And why not? The OP solved the issue on page one. Your right though, it's par for the goN.
Of the 93 responses, give or take, I count 10 that addressed the OP's fundamental question, including the brilliant paper cup solution.
The other 83, including 3 of mine and 2 of yours are mostly worthless yet sincere suggestions by those who've reached some modicum of subwoofer satisfaction. Then there's the pontificators who've solved for us a subject as vast as the human finger print, the subwoofer in virtually unlimited room and associated equipment variables.
nrenter, I'm still schlepping my Bass but most nights my other foot's in that dining hall.
I've had full range box speakers then because of the boominess/one note of the bass moved onto high quality monitors with two rel subs supporting the low end. This was much better but still some boominess which I attribute to the subs and box speakers interacting with the bass room nodes that all rooms have. I also installed several bass traps and used EQ to tame the room nodes. This all helped but still was more of a band aid and didn't eliminate the issues completely.
I've since moved onto open baffle speakers with powered bass drivers and what a revelation the bass was in the same room as my previous box speakers and subs. The bass is so much cleaner, faster and defined, no comparison. Absolutely no bass boominess or overhang, fantastic change for the better. I didn't realize what I was missing all these years and even got used to the bass of my rels which was pretty good.
The rels are retired for audio use and I only use them for my home theater now. For home theater I do believe box subs are preferable as it is better to have boomier longer lasting bass for explosions etc. But for music I want the opposite, I want quick detailed fast bass notes which my open baffle bass solved. Open baffles interact with bass nodes much much less so than box speakers do and work well even in difficult rooms. I don't even need my bass traps any longer.
Key point in this review of the DSPeaker 8022 II subwoofer optimizer "super easy to use" (3:45 mark). Get this unit, follow the instructions. One unit can optimize up to 4 subs (get at least two subs) and don’t forget your bass traps:
Reading this as saying that getting good bass in a room is easy or that bass doesn’t matter is misguided
What part of "least critical speaker" don’t you understand?
Anyone who states getting excellent bass in a room is an easy and straightforward task for any audiophile with a single subwoofer
I said to use more than one, two is better, one in the front corner and one in the rear of the room (in the paper Earl suggests the rear opposite corner).
I can get excellent results with one subwoofer
Then why don’t you use one?
It’s hard for most to do the same,
Who is "most"? Of course you mean anyone who is NOT @ghdprentice?? Again, you are shooting from the hip, where is the link to the research?
The swarm fanatics of course don’t understand
Yes, you have made it clear, only @ghdprenticeunderstands, fanatics need not apply.
but most consumers expect to get to great bass with 1
More fiction, "most", "many", "some"??? Can you show me some type of marketing research that substantiates this?? Do you think the "average consumer" lacks the skills to use a search engine, or talk to a dealer, or a manufacturer? This isn’t 1989, there is a plethora of resources for anyone remotely interested in how to get good bass response (don’t believe me, just search and see for yourself.)
Thanks for that. As I suspected, you posted out of context. EG clearly means to say that the design of the subwoofer itself as being less than critical and then goes on to recommend multiple subwoofers for the problem of the room.
Reading this as saying that getting good bass in a room is easy or that bass doesn't matter is misguided. The paper itself is written around the idea you are building a room for a theater. For everyone else, it is routinely difficult.
Anyone who states getting excellent bass in a room is an easy and straightforward task for any audiophile with a single subwoofer with limited placement options is mistaken, extremely lucky or their expectations are extremely low.
This puts us in the realm of the EG/swarm fanatics that pepper these discussions. I can get excellent results with one subwoofer, EQ and bass traps. It’s hard for most to do the same, and not everyone is going to be happy adding even more subwoofers. The swarm fanatics of course don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to triple the number of working speakers in your stereo system for good bass, and that’s fine, if you want to have 4 or 40 subs go ahead, but most consumers expect to get to great bass with 1.
I posted the entire paper in this thread, you don’t have to "suspect" anything. I even noted the page and section.
Those last two octaves are the hardest to get right consistently
No, I already posted a pretty easy method to get it right. Like I said, you don't need to believe anything I wrote, just implement, measure and prove it to yourself.
I read the quote by EG with some amusement. For the following reasons:
Least critical to whom? Just because they cover about two octaves does not make them less important just because he says so. This is very much a personal judgement call. I suspect the quote is out of context, and he was talking about driver design, in which case it would make more sense to me.
Those last two octaves are the hardest to get right consistently by the average consumer or even audiophile. Meaning, sometimes you luck out and a lot of times you don’t and need to put a lot of time and effort into it. Most audiophiles who care about bass have had to go through a number of experiments before they were happy.
So audiphiles go through the expense and toil of getting a subwoofer but refuse to use the high pass filter for fear it introduces more noise and distortion, which if true, would be hundreds of times smaller than the problems it fixes. They want a pure benefit, no downside solution only. Never mind the pure benefit is so vastly superior to the downside.
All audiophiles EXCEPT @ghdprenticeof course. You are baffled by subwoofers. don’t use them, and are publishing misinformation.
Earl Geddes (look him up) shoots down the mystique stating a sub is the LEAST critical of all speakers. "Audiophiles" are not toiling except the one in your imagination. Before you respond with more stuff you make up find some research that backs it up. Just because you are toiling with your sub doesn’t mean anyone else is.
Try an isolation device under the sub. When I did this with my previous sub and turned the system back on, I thought I had forgotten to power up the sub. All the settings were the same but the boom was missing. This was a better tweak than the full wall of panels and bass traps I had at the time.
Also, the less expensive subs made me think I could never properly integrate a sub with the mains, be it monitor or floor standers. Having a quality sub changed that perspective. I run a JL Audio E112 now.
Good luck get set up. Usually winds up being an experiment of sorts.
No I am not saying a layman should not use subs. I am saying he should learn about subwoofers and their placement and use the great tools available to help him… for instance that great video that explains the physics of placement. They actually have a series.
The trick is to have the space to set them up and a deep knowledge of the physics.
Hmmmm, so in your opinion the layman shouldn’t use a subwoofer without engaging a physicist? I have 0 problems with your system, I think it is excellent. Your room is excellent. Your advice makes me wonder. I don’t think you need to be a physicist to set up a subwoofer. I stand by my post above:
A) Place your sub (s) according to the manufacturers recommendations.
B) Place bass traps from floor to ceiling in the corners.
C) Run a dsp program like DIRAC, Audyssey, ARC,Mini-DSP, DSPeaker, etc.
Leave the physics to the sub designers and DSP programmers.
You don’t have to believe me, a simple measurement will confirm. Using two subs should be much better bass management than one. If you have the space for four, great, but that is a nice to have, not a need to have.
I used to have four B&W 800 series subs. I no longer have subwoofers in my audio system. I’ve had subwoofers for thirty years. I found them helpful but frustrating to sound right. They did a great job of extending the sound stage but getting them to integrate well was always difficult. I still have two in my home theater… there position is not changeable.
I got rid of mine when I upgraded to my Sonus Faber Amati speakers. Could they be enhanced with subwoofers. Sure. But they do well enough for me without subs and I enjoy the perfect coherency across the audio spectrum I get with just the Amatis.
I completely understand why folks like them. The trick is to have the space to set them up and a deep knowledge of the physics.
Subwoofers can be a real love hate relationship and most people are better off without them. People are led into believing subs add performance to a system with integration methods that are worse than stupid. This is the industry trying to make a living any old which way.
Rules of the road; The minimum number of subwoofers in a high performance system is two. The minimum cross over point in a high performance system is 80 Hz. High performance subwoofer systems have to use a full two way crossover not just a low pass filter. If you want to get the most out of a subwoofer system with the least amount of effort, digital subwoofer management with room control is a must. Without the ability to align the subwoofers in time with the main speakers, lack of digital subwoofer management forces the user into trial and error positioning usually forcing the placement of the subwoofers into positions where they can be up to 9 dB less efficient. With digital subwoofer management you can place the subs in corners where they are most efficient and delay the signal to the main speakers so the sound from all drivers reaches the listening position at the same time in phase.
The OP can plug his ports and it will roll of the frequency response earlier which may seem to improve sound quality. It is purely subjective. It is an easy and easily reversible thing to do. I do not even know why the question is being asked, just do it and see or hear what happens.
.I know this forum is loaded with sub owners and my post is not popular here BUT subs are very finicky to get them perfectly integrated into a complex system with multi units of electronic gear...
@mbmi- I own a sub, I love it and yet I 100% agree with your statement.
Integrating a subwoofer well is very hard and totally worth it, IMHO. The problem is getting there may be very hard for some based on rooms, speakers, etc. so I never suggest a subwoofer, alone, as a step audiophiles should take without being aware of the necessary care and feeding.
Not to sound dumb but how much does source material impact subwoofer settings.. The difference in bass from cd to cd and even vinyl to vinyl often has me running to my subs…
Hey @bcupari - This is a symptom of having excess bass peaks. The frequency response of your sub has narrow and very tall peaks which some music happens to excite. Get measuremenets and DSP correction, clip those peaks! Alternatively, or together, you might also try to move the sub/listening location to a place where it's less likely to excite your room modes. Check out the AM Acoustics room simulator.
You’ll notice then your sub will sound too low. Now you can bring the sub level up and it will sound good with a much broader variety of music.
There is a setting in my processor that is for late night listening that tones down bass volume so as not to wake up family or neighbors while still having dialog clear. Most receivers have something similar that could be used instead of changing sub settings.
Not to sound dumb but how much does source material impact subwoofer settings.. The difference in bass from cd to cd and even vinyl to vinyl often has me running to my subs…
I think we (Agon posters) should start the new year on a higher note (😉). So often , answers to an OP’s question are used simply as a vehicle for expressing all that we think we know about a topic without addressing the most obvious and easiest things that should be part of the dialogue with the OP. Only a relatively small percentage of the respondents have asked of the OP, if only in an indirect way, the obvious questions/suggestions: “Have you tried lowering the output level of your sub?”, “If so, what was the result?”, Have you tried lowering the XOVER frequency?”, “If so, what was the result?”. So, OP, what say you?
I may have missed it in the video but where did they say that bass management for the LFE channel is different than managing bass for two channel stereo?
They recommend 4 subs, how many do you have? How are they placed?
Glad to see you are studying up on the topic though.
Subwoofers can be extremely sound quality enhancing. On of the most notable thinks is to extend the sound stage. But proper integration take effort and knowledge. Just indiscriminately fiddling with the volume and crossovers or randomly moving around the room is unlikely to do the job.
I am attaching an outstanding video where professionals discuss sub woofers with the theoretical foundation for sound in a room. Applicable for full range speakers, and subwoofers in a two channel or home theater situation.
@eric_squires......I know this forum is loaded with sub owners and my post is not popular here BUT subs are very finicky to get them perfectly integrated into a complex system with multi units of electronic gear.....If you have the fortitude to dabble..dabble....tweak....and dabble again, Get a sub. But for many of us we just want to enjoy listening to the music . That can be achieved easier with less FUSS by having a nice floorstander that can go to 30 HTZ. .....ps. My feathers are ruffled but I’m not hurt. :)
["erik The problem is "proper integration" is a two-semester course."]
Twenty minutes with a certain signal processing.
When David Hall and his Velodyne associates introduced their Digital Drive in 2003 and DD Plus Room Optimization in 2011 it should have been titled Digital Drive for Dummies which I'm supremely qualified as.
The Sweep Tones CD is played through both the main speakers and the subwoofer simultaneously. Via the listening positioned calibrated mic the remote controlled processing called Auto EQ measures the mains from 200Hz and begins adjusting the subwoofers fourteen parameters within eight frequency bands which reflect the mains presentation onto the sub beginning at 100Hz.
Results and changes can be viewed graphically and saved to one or all six memory presets. The user can follow up with manual adjustments to taste and include those adjustments to any of the six presets.
Sadly, none of the major periodical reviews ventured past Auto EQ or offered a cursory description of the manufactures interactive default preset settings.
IMHO, @fastninja12has provides the most useful insights. Sometimes, the source of dissatisfaction is too high of a crossover point for the subwoofer. Here’s something to try:
1. Determine the manufacturers -3 dB point of your primary speakers
2. Multiply that frequency by 0.7
3. Use that frequency as the crossover frequency of your sub(s)
4. Increase the gain on the sub until it just becomes noticeable
5. Tick the gain down a notch
That means if your primary speakers have a -3 dB point at 62 Hz, try crossing over your sub(s) at 44 Hz. It seems low, but low is good.
If this works, problem solved. If it doesn’t, it was a free attempted solution.
@mikeydeeIf you go to a jazz club and hear a stand-up bass, it's clear, but not boomy. Same with the double basses in an orchestra. The low notes resonate, but they don't bowl you over.
Wether plucked or bowed the open E of a double bass is around 41HZ with most notes falling between 50-200HZ, so generally an easy task for most quality full range speakers. The challenge is to also get the lower frequencies of their sub harmonics as well as the lower frequencies of organ peddle and synthesizer which are deep and resonate - usually not whoofy or boomy. In general, it's the low level sub-harmonic frequencies that adds the fullness and richness we feel at live performance and why a good, well integrated sub can add so much to a system.
Subs are good for one thing and one thing Only....Home theatre...........They are a Detrimate to two channel sound....
@mbmi - Who hurt you?? 😁
A well set up subwoofer, with most speakers, is glorious. The issue is and always will be how hard it is to get there. For many 2 speakers is the way to keep things simple and well performing.
A good quality and well set up sub should always enhance a two channel system's sound. My small towers are nearly flat to the low 30s and an REL Britannia B1 sub 'opened' up the room and subtlety made the lowest bass a solid musical foundation.
I've since move to four good quality subs in a distributed bass array in the 16 x 21 x 10 room and you'll never know where they are; they are so low. With a bit of room bass correction it works quite well. I still need to high-pass mains for better sound and dynamics by relieving them of the low bass load. My bad so far...
As for the 'boom', I'd sure try a sock, and positioning, and crossover frequency and level. I always had better success passing very low (30-40s) and using a tad more volume. It depends on the mains.
Subs are good for one thing and one thing Only....Home theatre...........They are a Detrimate to two channel sound
This is wrong.
A Sub is an enhancement to a two channel setup. It makes up for difficiencies in bass, dynamics, and clarity. I think they are especially useful for a lower power, reciever-centralized system: where the owner has no desire to put up extra money for higher-end seperates.
I agree you don't "need" a sub as long as you have full range speakers. There are some advantages to monitor/sub setups vs towers. Generally the best location for bass output is different than the location of your front speakers. if you use towers you are locked in, if you use subs you can place them anywhere.
Before we moved the listening room I had in our former home was roughly 24' x 26' and the room added a single bass note that had no relationship to the bass line of the music I was listening to. I tried moving those 133# beasts around the room and the only place that the boom was mitigated was behind the sofa about midway between the 24' walls. Though the boom was reduced, the "visceral" effect of the bass was that it was coming from behind and the rest of the music was coming from ahead of the listening spot. I eventually had to purchase ten bass traps, which improved the sound about 85%.
The dimensions of my current listening room are great for integrating the subs with the main speakers, so my advice would be to sell you house and move 500 miles to a new home with a custom built listening room... ;-)
Subs are good for one thing and one thing Only....Home theatre...........They are a Detrimate to two channel sound.....You say "but I have bookshelf speakers and need a sub...I say " Get a good pair of towers and you won't need the Boom"
I see your confusion, yes, it is plain to see from your post that you don’t understand the logic of how to set up a sub for proper integration with music and movies.
I will break down my post for you, NP:
For anyone reading this who wants better bass the recipe isn’t secret. Get a preamp with a "sub out" and uses some type of room correction software.
There are many others available, these are two examples.
Place your sub like the manufacturer suggests.
Why reinvent the wheel right? The company that built the sub generally know how to place it. Here is a link as an example.
Stack bass traps from floor to ceiling in the corners of your room:
When it comes to bass traps I feel quantity is very important, this is a starting point of course. I notice you use GIK Acoustics so here is A LINK to an article by them to learn more:
then run the room correction EQ wizard per the instructions.
You will need to run the software based on the instructions that come with your preamp or device.
I hope you aren’t confused anymore, just follow the above step by step, take measurements and post when you are done. Thanks.
Then I don't understand the logic of your previous statement, or why you felt it important to try to correct mine:
A well integrated subwoofer is a rarity
That isn’t true among home theater enthusiasts, even entry level receivers have EQ wizards that walk you through sub integration. There is NO difference between music and movies when integrating a sub.
One would induce from your statement that HT enthusiasts with automatic EQ have well-integrated subwoofers. I stated it was not really enough, and now you state you never said it was.... ??? Do you see my confusion?
I didn’t recommend EQ as a panacea, The process is to include EQ AFTER placing the sub as the manufacturer suggests and adding bass traps (which you yourself use in your system and neglected to mention in your post).
As for goals of LFE and stereo in music they don’t matter. Bass is bass and the sub is integrated or it isn’t.
If you want to prove this for yourself try measuring. A well integrated sub will measure well for movies and music. If your sub measures well for one and not the other it isn’t well integrated.
BTW, I forgot to mention, always use at least TWO subs if possible rather than one.
That isn’t true among home theater enthusiasts, even entry level receivers have EQ wizards that walk you through sub integration.
I’m cool to the idea that room correction software is a panacea for several reasons:
As we’ve kind of danced around, EQ is only 1 aspect of proper sub integration. Measurement, EQ, placement, and room treatments all matter a great deal.
EQ correction software quality of end results varies by a LOT! Running your receiver's room correction algorithm tells me very little.
As an aside, one brand I think does an excellent job, for a lot of money, is JL Audio. Otherwise I’d much rather manage the subwoofer EQ and integration myself, using miniDSP and OmniMic for calibration.
There is NO difference between music and movies when integrating a sub.
Sadly not really true. The goals of a HT LFE channel is effects. The goal of a 2-channel stereo is music. They don’t get set equally.
Why not post how you integrated your sub?
I have, often. Hope to write a new blog post on this soon. :)
That isn’t true among home theater enthusiasts, even entry level receivers have EQ wizards that walk you through sub integration. There is NO difference between music and movies when integrating a sub.
I estimate 1 in 8 audiophiles with subs actually can take full advantage of 1 sub.
This isn’t really helpful at all, it might be 1 in 8, or 1 in 2, or 1 in 100. Why not post how you integrated your sub?
For anyone reading this who wants better bass the recipe isn’t secret. Get a preamp with a "sub out" and uses some type of room correction software. Place your sub like the manufacturer suggests, stack bass traps from floor to ceiling in the corners of your room, then run the room correction EQ wizard per the instructions.
If you don’t want to buy a new preamp just get this subwoofer equalizer:
I think that the goal most listeners have when adding a subwoofer is to keep the same tonal character of the main speakers, but add the lowest notes AND increase the overall dynamic range.
To keep the original speakers but make them sound as if they can play at any volume without limit.
Subwoofers, properly integrated to the room and system do this. The problem is "proper integration" is a two-semester course. One of the most resistant types of audophiles to subs is the ESL owner. They think of their sound as crystal clear, detailed, articulate and FAST! How can a 15" driver possibly keep up?
The answer is always in the frequency response of the mains and the sub, and by this I include time domain phenomenon which affecets the frequency domain.
A well integrated subwoofer is a rarity. I estimate 1 in 8 audiophiles with subs actually can take full advantage of 1 sub, so then they go looking for more subs. :D :D :D
If you go to a jazz club and hear a stand-up bass, it's clear, but not boomy. Same with the double basses in an orchestra. The low notes resonate, but they don't bowl you over.
Subs ideally should be set at wherever the main speaker’s bass output dies off...otherwise you can lose a portion of the music. I use 2 RELs as that’s all I seem to need, and they’re easily adjusted for level if a recording has too much or too little bass...I think Vandersteen was right as properly setup subs shouldn’t attract attention. If a single sub is too woofy, move it around until it's not.
I have 3 active subs in my music room. They are rolling off steeply above 40hz. It sounds very good, but took a few hours to dial in. The mistake I was making was trying to operate the subs above 50hz. Hope this helps.
I have a very nice system including Conrad Johnson amplifier & Arcam FMJ pre-amp, with an very clean EQ in between.
I had tried 2 or 3 active subs but noticed the same issues with too much low end and boominess no matter how I adjusted the sub.
Years ago I had a design Acoustics PS-SW PASSIVE sub.
I reconnected it and found the audio way more pleasing.
THIS passive sub is very musical while handling any audio source beautifully.
If you like the more extreme low end in action movies, stay powered.
But as a musician & audio buff, I prefer this sub to any of the powered subs I tried. With the passive, equalization and loudness seems way more balanced eliminating the need for constant readjustment of the sub depending on what your listening to.
If you can find a Design Acoustics PS-SW, buy it...you won't regret it!
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