@kota1
Thanks for that. As I suspected, you posted out of context. EG clearly means to say that the design of the subwoofer itself as being less than critical and then goes on to recommend multiple subwoofers for the problem of the room.
Reading this as saying that getting good bass in a room is easy or that bass doesn't matter is misguided. The paper itself is written around the idea you are building a room for a theater. For everyone else, it is routinely difficult.
Anyone who states getting excellent bass in a room is an easy and straightforward task for any audiophile with a single subwoofer with limited placement options is mistaken, extremely lucky or their expectations are extremely low.
This puts us in the realm of the EG/swarm fanatics that pepper these discussions. I can get excellent results with one subwoofer, EQ and bass traps. It’s hard for most to do the same, and not everyone is going to be happy adding even more subwoofers. The swarm fanatics of course don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to triple the number of working speakers in your stereo system for good bass, and that’s fine, if you want to have 4 or 40 subs go ahead, but most consumers expect to get to great bass with 1.
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I read the quote by EG with some amusement. For the following reasons:
- Least critical to whom? Just because they cover about two octaves does not make them less important just because he says so. This is very much a personal judgement call. I suspect the quote is out of context, and he was talking about driver design, in which case it would make more sense to me.
- Those last two octaves are the hardest to get right consistently by the average consumer or even audiophile. Meaning, sometimes you luck out and a lot of times you don’t and need to put a lot of time and effort into it. Most audiophiles who care about bass have had to go through a number of experiments before they were happy.
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.I know this forum is loaded with sub owners and my post is not popular here BUT subs are very finicky to get them perfectly integrated into a complex system with multi units of electronic gear...
@mbmi - I own a sub, I love it and yet I 100% agree with your statement.
Integrating a subwoofer well is very hard and totally worth it, IMHO. The problem is getting there may be very hard for some based on rooms, speakers, etc. so I never suggest a subwoofer, alone, as a step audiophiles should take without being aware of the necessary care and feeding.
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Not to sound dumb but how much does source material impact subwoofer settings.. The difference in bass from cd to cd and even vinyl to vinyl often has me running to my subs…
Hey @bcupari - This is a symptom of having excess bass peaks. The frequency response of your sub has narrow and very tall peaks which some music happens to excite. Get measuremenets and DSP correction, clip those peaks! Alternatively, or together, you might also try to move the sub/listening location to a place where it's less likely to excite your room modes. Check out the AM Acoustics room simulator.
You’ll notice then your sub will sound too low. Now you can bring the sub level up and it will sound good with a much broader variety of music.
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Subs are good for one thing and one thing Only....Home theatre...........They are a Detrimate to two channel sound....
@mbmi - Who hurt you?? 😁
A well set up subwoofer, with most speakers, is glorious. The issue is and always will be how hard it is to get there. For many 2 speakers is the way to keep things simple and well performing.
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I didn’t recommend EQ as a panacea,
Then I don't understand the logic of your previous statement, or why you felt it important to try to correct mine:
A well integrated subwoofer is a rarity
That isn’t true among home theater enthusiasts, even entry level receivers have EQ wizards that walk you through sub integration. There is NO difference between music and movies when integrating a sub.
One would induce from your statement that HT enthusiasts with automatic EQ have well-integrated subwoofers. I stated it was not really enough, and now you state you never said it was.... ??? Do you see my confusion?
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That isn’t true among home theater enthusiasts, even entry level receivers have EQ wizards that walk you through sub integration.
I’m cool to the idea that room correction software is a panacea for several reasons:
- As we’ve kind of danced around, EQ is only 1 aspect of proper sub integration. Measurement, EQ, placement, and room treatments all matter a great deal.
- EQ correction software quality of end results varies by a LOT! Running your receiver's room correction algorithm tells me very little.
As an aside, one brand I think does an excellent job, for a lot of money, is JL Audio. Otherwise I’d much rather manage the subwoofer EQ and integration myself, using miniDSP and OmniMic for calibration.
There is NO difference between music and movies when integrating a sub.
Sadly not really true. The goals of a HT LFE channel is effects. The goal of a 2-channel stereo is music. They don’t get set equally.
Why not post how you integrated your sub?
I have, often. Hope to write a new blog post on this soon. :)
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I think that the goal most listeners have when adding a subwoofer is to keep the same tonal character of the main speakers, but add the lowest notes AND increase the overall dynamic range.
To keep the original speakers but make them sound as if they can play at any volume without limit.
Subwoofers, properly integrated to the room and system do this. The problem is "proper integration" is a two-semester course. One of the most resistant types of audophiles to subs is the ESL owner. They think of their sound as crystal clear, detailed, articulate and FAST! How can a 15" driver possibly keep up?
The answer is always in the frequency response of the mains and the sub, and by this I include time domain phenomenon which affecets the frequency domain.
A well integrated subwoofer is a rarity. I estimate 1 in 8 audiophiles with subs actually can take full advantage of 1 sub, so then they go looking for more subs. :D :D :D
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If it’s boomy, it’s not located properly, crossed over properly or set to the correct level.
I kind of disagree. I mean, this all depends on how many options we have available to us to fix a problem. One of the most common is that there are big peaks that need to get clipped. OK, so what if I can't move the sub? Well that forces us to choose too low a level for the sub. An EQ though, with or without bass traps suddenly opens up a range of possibilities.
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However, most guidance says to avoid the HPF altogether. What do you recommend?
Either plug your MAIN speakers or use a high pass filter, or both.
Here’s the deal. Audiophiles get all squirrelly over ethereal sounding qualities of sound but somehow manage to ignore the really big changes. I mean 10 dB or more changes. As a result they are averse to good subwoofer integration.
Here are the problems:
- In the room, the bass output from the main speakers can be wonky. Too much, or peaky, often extending well below 30 Hz even for 2 way speakers. In fact so many users have problems they should deal with acoustically or by placement but they buy a sub instead... :D
- As a result, the only way to use a subwoofer is to fill in that very small range, 16 Hz to 30 Hz or so, and to attempt do do it while side stepping any other room mode problems from the main.
- Distortion in the main speaker is never reduced.
- Dynamic range of the main speakers and amplifier is not increased.
They buy a subwoofer but then treat it like the unloved stepson that barely gets to do anything positive. So audiphiles go through the expense and toil of getting a subwoofer but refuse to use the high pass filter for fear it introduces more noise and distortion, which if true, would be hundreds of times smaller than the problems it fixes. They want a pure benefit, no downside solution only. Never mind the pure benefit is so vastly superior to the downside.
Kind of reminds me of my father, an avid cigar smoker, who claimed he never inhaled, just liked the flavor.
So, high passing the main speakers improves the frequency response by ensuring the mains are out of the way of the worst room modes. Then there’s the distortion benefits. Reducing the bass in a speaker reduces distortion. Subwoofer’s have much better distortion/dynamic range profiles in the 20-80Hz range than your mains. So if you let them overlap you have your main speakers distorting long before the subs do. Especially bad with 2-way speakers as IM distortion/Doppler distortion in the mid range can be pronounced.
The truth is that for your average floor stander to 2-way speaker everything gets easier and better sounding if you limit the output of the main speakers, either by plugging ports in the mains or by using a high pass filter or both. Everyone else is just screwing around.
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This has worked for me every time I’ve set up a sub, whether it be REL or another brand. The idea of keeping the crossover as low as possible while volume high was tough to swallow at first, but now makes sense.
A horrible compromise at best and only recommended if you can do nothing about the response of your mains. Meaning, no high pass filter and won’t/can’t plug your port.
Many A'goners have gone the other way and been much happier.
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I’ve done it with different results but IME a properly built sub (ported) should not have a stark difference than a properly built sealed one.
@johnnycamp5
The issue isn’t the quality of the sub. The issue is the amount of bass in the room with this particular sub. Sealing a port will raise the lower cut off, and this may help the OP balance the bass properly.
As I’ve written lots of times, audiophiles are conditioned to think we can glean insight into a system’s response by specs, but in truth bass response is hugely variable and specs go out the window when it comes to integrating a sub into a room.
Below ~ 60 Hz speaker specs don’t tell you a thing once they are in the room.
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Placement and EQ are your best friends, followed by a good corner bass trap.
Use the AM Acoustics room mode simulator and try to keep your listening location and sub out of the lowest room modes if you can.
An EQ and/or bass trap then is your friend. Boomy bass is usually caused by narrow and tall peaks, which ironically, keeps you from turning up the subwoofer!
Yes, you can plug a subwoofer, but honestly good to measure if you can. Tailored DSP/EQ for your problem can often be required.
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