Start with Upgrade to DAC?

@mike4597 I saw you mention that you are considering using room treatments. You can use the physical treatments like I use in my office. Very ugly but they work well, and the wife stays out of the office, so she does not care how ugly they are.

Now if I were to use or need acoustic treatments in the Livingroom I would go with Mitch Barnett at,

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolver, Headphone Filtersets (accuratesound.ca)

I used his great remote DSP service in the past and the dude is a digital genius. This DSP will only work for a signal before it goes into your DAC. So, no benefit with a tuner or TT.

The cost of his remote service is $750. I no longer use the DSP files I had created for my office, but it is a great safely net to have. One reason I no longer use the DSP (convolution files) is because I have different speakers. The Magnepan LRS+ is actually rather easy to place in my office.

@mike4597 

oh, and on your specific request re other streamers at or below your budget (full disclosure, of my 5 current streamers, 2 are the Zen Stream and the S2 Ultra): Other units I’ve considered in the $1000 or under price point include Primare N2 Prisma, Holo Red, and Volumio Rivo.  And as others have heard ad nauseum, I’m a huge fan of the streamer reviews on HiFi News, particularly the lab reports section to give insight into what you’re getting, or not, as you climb the $ tree.  (No other print or on-line review source has reviewed as many streamers as they have, so it’s a great resource.)

@mike4597 

Yeah, sorry for pyrotechnics. several of us obviously have a history that can get in the way of helpful feedback.  Here’s an interesting take on streamers in the context of their functioning as DDCs, which I hadn’t really thought of before (though it is obvious).  Anyway, this guy does some pretty good work trying to marry subjective and objective.  More importantly, you might find his voice less annoying than mine, lol!  Good luck in your journey:

DDCs/Streamers

As for the streaming service, I like convenience, so between Tidal and Qobuz, is one more convenient to use than the other?

I used to be very anti Tidal due to their higher pricing and absurd MQA requirement for hi res, but both of those things have changed so music selection may now be the biggest differentiator between the two. I will say as a Qobuz user I find their search function subpar. It works, but often I search for things I know are there and they still don’t come up — very frustrating. I’ve since learned how to work with it, but it’s an unnecessary weakness that Qobuz frustratingly seems unwilling to improve. It’s not a huge deal and overall I’m very happy with Qobuz, but I mention it because you’re asking about convenience and this is one area — along with playlists if those are important to you — that you might want to pay attention to as you compare the two.

I totally respect your rationale for wanting to avoid PRC products, and I think you’re on the right track with the Zen Mk3 especially if easily ripping CDs is important, and you’re also getting their excellent Sense app and customer service that are very significant pluses. And of course sound quality is among the best in your price range. Hope this helps, and best of luck. If you do get the Innuos I’d be very interested in your thoughts as I’ve also got a Zen Stream and am also strongly considering the Zen Mk3 as an upgrade.

@yyzsantabarbara the ask from the OP was about non-PRC units

@zarf I think the best bang for your buck streamer, especially if you use ROON, is the Sonore OpticalRendu. I have owned about 5 or 6 of them. I sold a few to friends and setup their streaming. I currently have 2 of them with both the audiophile power supply and the much cheaper power supply from Sonore. Go for the cheaper power supply.

Since I owned the Lumin X1 I would also highly recommend the following Lumin streamer based on the X1, but this one has no DAC.

LUMIN U2 (luminmusic.com)

That and the Yggi+ OG maybe a future setup for me. It sounds different than the Sonore OpticalRendu. I call the Lumin a wild child streamer vs the refined sounding Sonore opticalRendu.

Another streamer that would be perfect if it had fibre optical, but maybe great nevertheless, could be the

ARIES S1 - AURALIC

I say potentially great because my now sold Playback Designs STREAM-IF was great using SPDIF output from an Ethernet input. The Aries S1 also takes in Ethernet unlike the Lumin and Sonore, which take in fibre.

I tended to stay away from Ethernet streaming but the Playback Designs steamer was so good using Ethernet.

BTW - I should add that the digital Leedh volume control on the Lumin is almost as good as the great volume control on the Benchmark LA4 preamp. I compared the 2 side-by-side. The difference is really a non-factor for almost everyone. Normally digital volume controls are really subpar compared to an analog preamp, especially the LA4.

CUSTOMER: I came here for a good argument.
MR. BARNARD: No you didn’t. You came here for an argument.
CUSTOMER: Well an argument’s not the same as contradiction.
MR. BARNARD: Can be

___________

If we can move back to the original questions about what might be suggested as the next area for upgrade of the poster's listed system, that would be enjoyable. I am new to streamers as of 2-3 years, having started with the humble Bluesound Node, third generation. Purchased new, still in play.

I was also stunned by having access to all the music available from streaming.

My best guess in looking at your system would be to get a dac that you might stick with for a while. The 2/64 got decent reviews, as did the Bifrost 2 before it. I liked my Bifrost 2 at the time, but the Holo bettered it. There are good choices if you choose to upgrade here. I am unable to say whether a dac or a streamer would make the most difference.

I've heard an Innuous setup briefly at a neighbor's house. It was very detailed. I have to return the book I borrowed, so that I might listen again. The speakers were two days out of the box and lovely.

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/users/cosmic_charlie

This is supposed to be fun, remember.

 I queried Schiit as to whether I would be able to detect a significant difference between the Bifrost and the Yggdrasil, and their surprising answer was "no." 

This answer maybe different based on who you spoke with at Schitt. I called them a few months ago to discuss the Yiggi+ MIB DAC. The guy I spoke to cursed out the Yggi+ LIM DAC that I owned and told me the Yggi+ OG was much better. I took his advice and got the last OG available (Schitt replaced it with the MIB). 

It took a month of burn-in for me, the same as what Robert Harley reported in TAS a few years ago. However, after that burn-in I could tell that the OG was much different than the LIM. Either could be preferred by people over the other. I love both and have then in 2 separate systems.

I have not heard the Bitfrost but based on my experience I described above I would think the MIB or LIM is much better than the Bitfrost. It would of course depend on the sonic match with your system and how revealing your system was.

I use a used $700 Sonore OpticalRendu streamer, which uses fibre optic cable (glass) just before it goes into a USB conversion and into the DAC. Not as pure a fibre solution as the Lumin X1 (owned it before) but close in execution.

Only issue with the Yggi+ DACs is that it sometimes shuts down for 1/2 second between songs on a ROON stream. That is if the next song is a bit slow to play. Irritating at first but the sound of the Yggi+ is so good that I do not care. Saved me $20k by eliminating my desire to buy the Playback Designs DAC.

@mike4597 I have an Innuous Zen MK3 and I'm very happy with it.  I didn't buy it for the cd ripper, but I actually use it a fair bit.  Pop a cd in and it rips a copy to my library in under 5 minutes.  Real easy.

I use the Sense app by Innuous with Qobuz.  Assuming you would as well, I don't know if the convenience would be any different between Qobuz and Tidal. 

Soix

I understand, and you know I very often respect your input. In this case no one is going to convince anyone, and the OP is getting no valuable input. 

@mike4597 you’re on the right track with replacing the streamer. As to non-PRC options, Aurender is awesome. If you don’t need Roon, a used Aurender N10 is going to be amazing. 

WOW.  Did I set off a storm!

I appreciate all the advice guys (and gals if any are involved).  Being quite pleased with the Schiit Bifrost 2/64, I queried Schiit as to whether I would be able to detect a significant difference between the Bifrost and the Yggdrasil, and their surprising answer was "no."  So, based on what I have read here, I am going to start by replacing my streamer and going to either Tidal or Qobuz  (I need to check them both out).  One key criteria I have in my purchases now is to avoid buying things from the PRC; that is not to say they don't make some good stuff, but having spent nearly four decades as an Intelligence officer, I see China preparing for war in the Pacific, and I don't want to contribute--via taxes on their companies--to the Chinese military in any way.  Having said that, I realize that such a position radically constrains my choices in a streamer.  One brand I have found is Innuous, which makes their streamers in Portugal.  Given that my budget is around $3Kto $4K for a streamer, I am thinking of the Zen MkIII, which can rip CDs and has a linear power supply.  The Pro-Ject S2 Ultra has some ambiguous reviews, so I eliminated that. Are there other non-PRC options out there?  

As for the streaming service, I like convenience, so between Tidal and Qobuz, is one more convenient to use than the other?

Finally, thanks to all who commented, and I can see that there are those who are even a bit more passionate than me about this business of getting the best music reproduction possible within certain financial constraints.  )Fortunately, we live in a still free country, and people are entitled to their own opinions.)  I think I am pretty close to what I can achieve within my financial limits.  Thanks again ... to all who commented.

@soix 

Gosh, now I know how Galileo felt.  

mdalton

when was the last time you got laid? ... bottom line: i feel confident in my views, my logic, and my behavior.

Of course you’re confident!

soix

@mdalton If you think that your view that all streamers sound the same is in the mainstream you are seriously delusional.

It’s obvious the guy has a problem, @soix.

Honestly though, my views are in the mainstream.

@mdalton If you think that your view that all streamers sound the same is in the mainstream you are seriously delusional. The vast, vast majority of people here clearly hear differences between streamers, and those differences are significant and not at all hard to hear so your inability to hear these differences is absolutely in the minority and most certainly not in the mainstream. No serious or experienced reviewer uses a $400 streamer in their reference system, so if all streamers have no sound as you maintain then according to you they’re all wasting their money or are kidding themselves. Likewise go to any audio show and you won’t find a sub $2000 streamer in the building — why is that if they make no difference? Face it, your position is in the extreme minority, and you come here telling people they make no difference and sadly some people may buy your story and not even try a better streamer, and that’s where you potentially do true harm here. People who have ears and use them, you aside, have heard the significant difference a better streamer can make and have voted with their wallets, and though you try to hide behind some tech theory to support your inability to hear those differences it doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority absolutely hear that you’re an outlier. Thankfully most people choose to use their own ears and will find their own truth despite your continued determination to tilt at windmills.

Jesus I hate when this crap happens, let’s talk audio

@vthokie83 I agree and initially just stayed silent while he spewed his crap, but when he belittles someone here who’s sharing an honest experience of hearing an improvement with a given streamer just because he doesn’t understand why and it doesn’t fit his shallow model of how things should work according to him, then that’s just lame and deserves a response IMO.

Jesus I hate when this crap happens, let's talk audio

I’ll let that sorry ass attempt at an insult slide. Not worth the arguing for the reasons mentioned by me earlier. Have a nice night. 

A simple, well-designed, robust streaming-signal chain should not have an audible effect on the sound of a music file
 

@mdalton 

The reviewer rattling out such statements as you had posted above is nothing but a description of what the streamers should be like in an ideal world. It’s nothing but an opinion. Read that sentence again.

The earlier pig reference must have set the stage for this LOL…

”all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”. 
George Orwell, Animal Farm

This applies to everything including streamers.

@soix 

I know this is tough for you but let’s try to get back to substance.  You argue that my advice, consistently supported by my own listening experience, science and data, is bad, useless and pointless.  Honestly though, my views are in the mainstream.  Let me give you two prominent examples:

1) Mark Craven, HiFi News (7/8/24 review of PS Audio Airlens):  “Ideally a network streamer/bridge will have no ‘sound’ of its own and will simply pass the digital audio data in as clean a state as possible, letting the connected DAC get to work. Any subjective audition of the AirLens is therefore a ‘group effort’ with the partnering DAC…”  This is a consistent theme of their reviews of streamers; they don’t have a sound, they simply move data.  Differences are a function of noise, and noise differences for well-engineered products are de minimus.  This is supported by a rigorous set of measuring criteria performed by Paul Miller over the last 20 years or more.

2) Steven Stone, The Absolute Sound (12/29/21 review of iFi Zen):  “This might be the ideal time to pose the question, “Do streamers have a sound?” They are basically file movers. They move digital data, which in this case happens to be music, from point A to point B. Music files enter via Ethernet or Wi-Fi and are sent to a DAC. Ideally nothing should alter their contents or error-rate. Whether there are functions or factors within the network signal chain that can or do alter the final results appears to be a subject that inspires passionate and polarized debate. My position is pragmatic. A simple, well-designed, robust streaming-signal chain should not have an audible effect on the sound of a music file.” This guy writes for The Absolute Sound!!! They don’t do measurements, it’s all subjective, but even he sees the illogic of thinking that streamers have a sound.

So in summary, you can disagree with these guys, though they have far more experience than either of us.  And you can find all sorts of other reviewers who will make a different argument.  But I don’t think you can (logically) argue that this view is impossible or stupid, or that those promoting it are deaf, useless or pointless.  That is all I’ve been arguing during our “streamer wars”.  So could you just chill?

mulchy

11 posts

08-05-2024 at 08:35pm 

Presumably not with a chorus of beautiful hog harmony.
 

No. It’s still just oinking…

@audphile1 

so you just compared me to a pig?  ok,whatever.  But see, unlike you, I’m not trying “to prove that you’re wrong”.  Like you (and you know who), I think I’m right, but I’m always willing to acknowledge the possibility that I’m not. So I’m ok with you (and you know who) expressing your views, but you guys have a problem letting me express mine.  Look back at our history and you’ll see that virtually every time it’s simply me defending myself from gratuitous attacks from you (and you know who).  

some other dude - with whom i do have a history - piles on with ad hominem attacks on me, presumably for making logic-based points?
 

@mdalton To be clear, you made a snide response to someone here who merely shared his actual listening experience with a streamer, and you took it upon yourself to try to tell him he didn’t know what he was talking about when he heard what he heard with his own ears.  Incidentally, I’ve received emails from other posters here supporting my response and saying that you were off base with your unnecessary comments.

I believe I deserve special credit for linking to a thread where an OP, against my recommendation, spent a ton of money on a streamer, and seems very happy with his decision, which is fine by me

Special credit for giving bad advice that streamers don’t make a difference???  Ha!  And that OP, BTW, is not just very happy but is thrilled with his new Aurender streamer to the point where his streaming setup is now on the level of his vinyl source no thanks to your “advice.”  Not that you’d understand that since according to you streamers don’t make a difference.  Give it a rest dude — you do more harm than good here. 

@mdalton I didn’t call you a pig. It’s the impossible process of trying to convince you that you’re wrong that I was referring to. You know…the saying…never try to teach a pig to sing; it will waste your time and annoy the pig…

Not the same as calling you a pig rather telling others that they’re embarking on a never ending journey.

@audphile1 

So let’s recap:

-some dude comes onto thread and tells OP he’s getting bad advice from everyone else, needs to up his game to streamer this dude has

-turns out streamer this dude has had same electronics “in the signal path” as Op’s streamer has, but costs $900 more

- i point out that something is amiss with this dude’s advice

- dude responds by pointing to electronics that are not in signal path as reason for superiority of his recommended streamer

- i point out obvious problem with this logic

- some other dude - with whom i do have a history - piles on with ad hominem attacks on me, presumably for making logic-based points?

bottom line: i feel confident in my views, my logic, and my behavior.  Recall, btw, that my first post on the thread was to link to a prior thread for the OP’s benefit so he could see both sides of the “streamer wars”.  (btw, I believe I deserve special credit for linking to a thread where an OP, against my recommendation, spent a ton of money on a streamer, and seems very happy with his decision, which is fine by me)  

- last point: i have not referred to anybody on other side of “streamer wars” as “deaf”, “useless”, “pointless”, or a “pig”.

Presumably not with a chorus of beautiful hog harmony.

It’s very simple - anything in a signal path will affect sound quality. There are no exceptions to this rule. These components that are in a signal path…CD transports, Streamers, DACs., tubes, speaker cables, interconnects, digital cables .,all make a difference.
I believe we’ve established this in multiple discussions that people hear differences between streamers. There are a few who don’t believe it’s possible and they will fight tooth and nail to protect their point of view. So why bother arguing with them? Let them say their piece and move on. Just ignore. When you get into a pissing contest with someone like that you’re teaching a pig how to sing. And we all know how that ends. 

It seems the continuation of this personal disagreement would be more appropriately held, well, personally between the interested parties in DM or what have you - unless you guys feel like steering it back to OP’s inquiry.

I believe @mdalton was one of several that were rude to me because I was using a MacMini. 

I took their advice and ditched my MacMini. I am so glad I did. The difference was big.

A couple months later I set the MacMini up again for confirmation....yuk !

Sometimes rudeness is what it takes and I'm thankful.

@mdalton There’s no “capeeshing” necessary.  You very sadly can’t hear differences in streamers, which makes your opinion on the topic no more useful than a deaf person’s opinion on speakers.  Capeesh?

I had 3 great streamers in the house at the same time and did direct comparisons. There were big differences in sound. I would not say one was better than the other, but the differences were easily evident. I wrote many posts on this.

• Lumin X1 using fibre optic streaming (ignored the DAC section)
• Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre)
• Playback Designs STREAM-IF (used SPDIF since I did not get a PDB DAC for PLINK testing. PLINK is fibre)

@soix 

so that’s “no capeesh”?

@mdalton You can’t hear differences between streamers anyway, so your input as usual is utterly useless and pointless on this topic.

@soix 

Hey, I missed you too.  Per Depeche Mode, just can’t get enough.  But seriously, ascribing improved sound of streaming with the Neo to features that are only in the circuit if you’re using the DAC would be like me saying the Rothwell Rialto sounds better with an MM cartridge than the Rothwell Simplex due to features of the MC circuit in the Rialto.  I probably didn’t hear a difference, but if I did, that is obviously not the reason why.  Capeesh?  

@mdalton It’s clear that @stevebohnii actually heard significant improvements in going to the Neo from the Zen, so you arguing some individual parts here are there is really pointless gibberish because in the end it’s about the sound and clearly found the added expense was worth it to him.  He expressed his opinion based on his actual experience with the product in question here, which is perfectly valid, while you continually come in here telling people there’s no difference in sound between streamers — now that is gibberish.

@stevebohnii 

oh man that’s alot of ad copy!  Look, don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of iFi, their price-to-performance is top notch.  But they too are guilty of hyperbole.  Regarding some of your points:

- the XMOS 16x in the Neo is not for the streamer, it’s for DAC functionality (e.g., MQA processing)

- similarly, the 4 filters you’re talking about are typical of a modern DAC; my Okto and Topping DACs have a choice of 7 filters, and my Gold Note has 192! options, but those filters have nothing to do with the Neo’s streaming finction

- do you really want to talk about those “tantalum capacitors”; are you sure they’re not in the DAC section?

- maybe I have to give you the “Optibox” technology, but do you really think whatever the heck it does, that it’s worth a $900 difference in price?  

So look, when you enter a conversation by telling an OP that everyone else is giving bad advice, all I’m saying is you shoul try not to then talk gibberish.

@mdalton 

Very nice to meet you sir. I greatly appreciate your response and your opinion. I never said the ifi Zen was a bad product, but looking at Mike’s setup the weakest link is the ifi Zen. I also had a Zen before upgrading to the Neo. Using the same external ddc and dac I used with the Zen, Neo’s sound quality is much more open, detailed, and balanced than the Zen. To say the only difference between the two is that the Neo comes with a dac, I believe is misleading. The streamer components within the Neo are much more advanced than those in the Zen. First, the capacitors in the Neo are way more superior than those in the Zen. The Neo also uses a more advanced processor than the Zen. The Zen uses an ARM Cortex and the Neo uses the XMOS 16x. Additional improvements that might not be directly associated with the streamer but has a very big impact on sound quality (that is not come with the Zen) is ifi’s Optibox. The LAN signal from the router is regenerated, reclocked and rebalanced by the OptiBox; true galvanic isolation is applied, with zero parasitic capacitance and inductance (ifi website). Finally, the Neo comes with four digital filters that allows me to adjust the sound of my external dac depending on if I’m using OS or NOS. These filters make a pretty big difference in sound quality. 

I greatly respect your opinion but to say the only difference between the Zen and the Neo is that the Neo has a dac with the exact same streamer, is misleading. The difference in sound quality between the two components is due to differences in technology. 

@stevebohnii 

??? You have essentially the same streamer as the OP - it’s just yours, the IFi Neo, combines a DAC with the streamer, while his, the iFi Zen, does not.  Apparently, in your system, you bypass the internal dac in your streamer, which makes sense, but then why not just go with the Zen?  So on what basis are you concluding that the OP needs a “better” streamer?

@mike4597 - I feel you are getting a lot of bad advice. Replacing your speakers? Your speakers are amazing. I have the Fyne Audio 502SPs and love them. I am using a sub which I think adds a lot of extension. I think your weakest link is your streamer. I would start with the streamer and then the dac. If you go used and increase your budget a little you could get a streamer and dac for under $5k. I know that’s easy for me to say, but I think you will hear an audible difference with a new steamer. 

Treating the room should come first.

Then consider your use of streaming. Would it serve as a replacement for playing CDs? If so invest in Streamer and DAC. If not consider the purchase of a quality transport to replace your NAD player.

mike4597

As others have said, you have 3 glaring weak spots: Streaming service (move to Qobuz or Tidal), streamer, and DAC

If I were in your shoes, I would upgrade the DAC first. I'd look at: Denafrips Pontus II R2R ladder DAC (I own this DAC - $1,500 used), Schitt Yggy LIM DAC ($1,750 used), Laiv Harmony DAC ($2,700 new), or the recently released LTA Aero DAC ($3,950 new). I've not heard the LTA, but it's getting great reviews already.

Whatever is left (or when you can save more), then upgrade the streamer once you've got a nice DAC

I’d look at a LAiV Harmony DAC that offers a trial and an Innuos Pulse Mini with something like a Teddy Pardo LPS.  A little over your budget but well worth the stretch I’d think.  Best of luck. 

Upgrade your speakers ,having owned a audio store and the art of modding electronics myself Upgrading Loudspeakers weak link ,the Xover is over 80% of 

loudspeakers including many expensive Loudspeakers , why for most companies 

put in average at best capacitors, and resistors , it’s all about $$ . 
they get something that does a decent job not what’s best Ever .

man6 use either Solen, or the mid grade white Mundorf capacitors , and $4 resistors sad but true . I upgrade Every Loudspeaker I own ,ad well as many Audiophile friends. Which is a Substantial audio upgrade.

Long but interesting video by Rob Watts covering a lot of ground on DACs, sources, cables, power supplies. 
https://youtu.be/wvfc4UYGDi0

@slorider45 ​​​​​​

I haven't heard the Denefrips, but I know they get good reviews. You might also research the Gustard R26 r2r dac.  It's what I have and I'm very happy with it.  It's one of the least expensive pieces in my system, but I don't feel the need to upgrade. 

see recent thread

IMHO, you will not hear a difference in sound from a $1500 streamer vs. what you already have (or even vs. a $6500 streamer).  Think about what a streamer is: a relatively low-powered computer that moves data packets from a source to a DAC, performing no conversions or changes to the data stream.  Differences among streamers are limited to jitter and other types of noise, which can be measured relatively easily.  Streamers are a mature product now, having been around for over 25 years.  So well-engineered streamers that cost less than $1000 have jitter and other noise measurements that are virtually identical to products that cost over $30k!

But there are some here that, contrary to science, measurements, and the listening experience of others like me, believe spending $5k, $10k, or even more(!) can be justified.  Now to be clear, they cite their own listening experiences which they believe perhap even more than I believe in my own.  So good luck as you figure this out.  My advice is to with your instinct and focus on your DAC.  

I’m the least qualified person here to be providing advice but I wanted to recommend you consider a R2R Ladder DAC over a chip based DAC. 
I’m going to order a Denafrips Dac. They have 5 or 6 at various price points. I’m buying one of the least expensive ones, it’s going to be my first stand alone DAC. 

have you addressed your room acoustic yet?

That's where I would start, many people ignore the room when that's the biggest upgrade you can do bar none. like may will say the source first but if the room is not great sounding no source will sound good regardless. I'm past wasting big  money on upgrades in a room that's not optimized first. Obviously there is considerations here for multi use rooms, but I would never again spend big money on gear before I sort the room out first. learned this the hard way......

Then others have made good suggestions on upgrades after you do the room.