Start with Upgrade to DAC?

Don’t even think about replacing your streamer.  You’re fine there.  Everything else is a matter of taste (by which I mean sound, lol).

see recent thread

IMHO, you will not hear a difference in sound from a $1500 streamer vs. what you already have (or even vs. a $6500 streamer).  Think about what a streamer is: a relatively low-powered computer that moves data packets from a source to a DAC, performing no conversions or changes to the data stream.  Differences among streamers are limited to jitter and other types of noise, which can be measured relatively easily.  Streamers are a mature product now, having been around for over 25 years.  So well-engineered streamers that cost less than $1000 have jitter and other noise measurements that are virtually identical to products that cost over $30k!

But there are some here that, contrary to science, measurements, and the listening experience of others like me, believe spending $5k, $10k, or even more(!) can be justified.  Now to be clear, they cite their own listening experiences which they believe perhap even more than I believe in my own.  So good luck as you figure this out.  My advice is to with your instinct and focus on your DAC.  

@stevebohnii 

??? You have essentially the same streamer as the OP - it’s just yours, the IFi Neo, combines a DAC with the streamer, while his, the iFi Zen, does not.  Apparently, in your system, you bypass the internal dac in your streamer, which makes sense, but then why not just go with the Zen?  So on what basis are you concluding that the OP needs a “better” streamer?

@stevebohnii 

oh man that’s alot of ad copy!  Look, don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of iFi, their price-to-performance is top notch.  But they too are guilty of hyperbole.  Regarding some of your points:

- the XMOS 16x in the Neo is not for the streamer, it’s for DAC functionality (e.g., MQA processing)

- similarly, the 4 filters you’re talking about are typical of a modern DAC; my Okto and Topping DACs have a choice of 7 filters, and my Gold Note has 192! options, but those filters have nothing to do with the Neo’s streaming finction

- do you really want to talk about those “tantalum capacitors”; are you sure they’re not in the DAC section?

- maybe I have to give you the “Optibox” technology, but do you really think whatever the heck it does, that it’s worth a $900 difference in price?  

So look, when you enter a conversation by telling an OP that everyone else is giving bad advice, all I’m saying is you shoul try not to then talk gibberish.

@soix 

Hey, I missed you too.  Per Depeche Mode, just can’t get enough.  But seriously, ascribing improved sound of streaming with the Neo to features that are only in the circuit if you’re using the DAC would be like me saying the Rothwell Rialto sounds better with an MM cartridge than the Rothwell Simplex due to features of the MC circuit in the Rialto.  I probably didn’t hear a difference, but if I did, that is obviously not the reason why.  Capeesh?  

@soix 

so that’s “no capeesh”?

@audphile1 

so you just compared me to a pig?  ok,whatever.  But see, unlike you, I’m not trying “to prove that you’re wrong”.  Like you (and you know who), I think I’m right, but I’m always willing to acknowledge the possibility that I’m not. So I’m ok with you (and you know who) expressing your views, but you guys have a problem letting me express mine.  Look back at our history and you’ll see that virtually every time it’s simply me defending myself from gratuitous attacks from you (and you know who).  

@audphile1 

So let’s recap:

-some dude comes onto thread and tells OP he’s getting bad advice from everyone else, needs to up his game to streamer this dude has

-turns out streamer this dude has had same electronics “in the signal path” as Op’s streamer has, but costs $900 more

- i point out that something is amiss with this dude’s advice

- dude responds by pointing to electronics that are not in signal path as reason for superiority of his recommended streamer

- i point out obvious problem with this logic

- some other dude - with whom i do have a history - piles on with ad hominem attacks on me, presumably for making logic-based points?

bottom line: i feel confident in my views, my logic, and my behavior.  Recall, btw, that my first post on the thread was to link to a prior thread for the OP’s benefit so he could see both sides of the “streamer wars”.  (btw, I believe I deserve special credit for linking to a thread where an OP, against my recommendation, spent a ton of money on a streamer, and seems very happy with his decision, which is fine by me)  

- last point: i have not referred to anybody on other side of “streamer wars” as “deaf”, “useless”, “pointless”, or a “pig”.

@soix 

I know this is tough for you but let’s try to get back to substance.  You argue that my advice, consistently supported by my own listening experience, science and data, is bad, useless and pointless.  Honestly though, my views are in the mainstream.  Let me give you two prominent examples:

1) Mark Craven, HiFi News (7/8/24 review of PS Audio Airlens):  “Ideally a network streamer/bridge will have no ‘sound’ of its own and will simply pass the digital audio data in as clean a state as possible, letting the connected DAC get to work. Any subjective audition of the AirLens is therefore a ‘group effort’ with the partnering DAC…”  This is a consistent theme of their reviews of streamers; they don’t have a sound, they simply move data.  Differences are a function of noise, and noise differences for well-engineered products are de minimus.  This is supported by a rigorous set of measuring criteria performed by Paul Miller over the last 20 years or more.

2) Steven Stone, The Absolute Sound (12/29/21 review of iFi Zen):  “This might be the ideal time to pose the question, “Do streamers have a sound?” They are basically file movers. They move digital data, which in this case happens to be music, from point A to point B. Music files enter via Ethernet or Wi-Fi and are sent to a DAC. Ideally nothing should alter their contents or error-rate. Whether there are functions or factors within the network signal chain that can or do alter the final results appears to be a subject that inspires passionate and polarized debate. My position is pragmatic. A simple, well-designed, robust streaming-signal chain should not have an audible effect on the sound of a music file.” This guy writes for The Absolute Sound!!! They don’t do measurements, it’s all subjective, but even he sees the illogic of thinking that streamers have a sound.

So in summary, you can disagree with these guys, though they have far more experience than either of us.  And you can find all sorts of other reviewers who will make a different argument.  But I don’t think you can (logically) argue that this view is impossible or stupid, or that those promoting it are deaf, useless or pointless.  That is all I’ve been arguing during our “streamer wars”.  So could you just chill?

@soix 

Gosh, now I know how Galileo felt.  

@mike4597 

Yeah, sorry for pyrotechnics. several of us obviously have a history that can get in the way of helpful feedback.  Here’s an interesting take on streamers in the context of their functioning as DDCs, which I hadn’t really thought of before (though it is obvious).  Anyway, this guy does some pretty good work trying to marry subjective and objective.  More importantly, you might find his voice less annoying than mine, lol!  Good luck in your journey:

DDCs/Streamers

@mike4597 

oh, and on your specific request re other streamers at or below your budget (full disclosure, of my 5 current streamers, 2 are the Zen Stream and the S2 Ultra): Other units I’ve considered in the $1000 or under price point include Primare N2 Prisma, Holo Red, and Volumio Rivo.  And as others have heard ad nauseum, I’m a huge fan of the streamer reviews on HiFi News, particularly the lab reports section to give insight into what you’re getting, or not, as you climb the $ tree.  (No other print or on-line review source has reviewed as many streamers as they have, so it’s a great resource.)