Agree with Audiotroy. No speakers or digital correction will cure bad room acoustics. In your case there is a solution and you won’t need wife acceptance because she will not notice it. 10 inches of rockwool on your ceiling supported by grid/strings and covered by sound permeable fabric. You can do it cheaply yourself. Of course thick carpeting and more sound deadening furniture would be helpful too. |
There are no speakers that are going to solve this problem. I have been doing this for 35 years and I’m amazed at how little people don’t understand this issue. Remember that anything above 100 hz is a problem of reflection. Anything below 100 hz is a problem of room pressure. If you have a full range speaker, you have to deal with getting the room pressure solved before you do anything else. It won’t matter what else you do. Try opening up one window about 2 inches in your car while listening to the radio at 60 miles an hour and tell me what you hear. Your ears will feel like they are going to explode. If you don’t fix the problem of pressure you are not going to get good sound. Bass ’absorbers’ do not work. Yes, I said it, they do not work. Bass traps, etc., are the biggest waste of money period. Diffusers don’t work either unless they are at least 4 inches in length and are made of some kind of solid hard wood. Plants don’t work either, they are pseudo science. This has been proven time and time again. However, wool carpets are very good. I recommend wool on the floor and even hanging on a few walls. This will help with the ’echo effect’ you are having in your room. If you can, place the speakers so that they are not parallel to any wall. If you have bookshelf speakers and don’t mind sitting on a bean bag or pillow on the floor, use Mapleshade Audio’s Bedrock speakers stands and watch the problems of your room go away. This is due to the fact that the sound will hit your ears way before any reflections and you will not experience the headache. I hope this is helpful. |
Guys, i’ve been an audiophile since I started dating my husband in 1963 . At first it was “ enforced” listening, finally becoming voluntary after the kids grew up. We have been through Altec Lansing,double Advents, Maggie’s , quad 57’s (re done), Bud Fried’s supermonitors, Harold Beveridge’s big white electrostatics, etc etc....HH Scott, Avery Fisher, Saul Marantz, Rek -O-Kit ,the real Harmon Kardon,tubes, stacks of audio magazines and enough vinyl and turntables to fill a radio station back in the day. I went on here specifically to find out if we could decently ( sound wise) get around visible acoustic treatments. I have been told by many personally that echo is only treatable physically and not electronically, therefore I thought I’d ask all the most dedicated hobbyists here on Audiogon. I will leave y’all now. BTW, my husband ( the original audiophile in our family) has been on Audiogon since about 2005. Vinyl rules until digital can REALLY SOUND ANALOG......you guys were so so helpful... okay, okay, I will admit I have learned a lot of things from Geofkait and Squires, it’s just that for all of us, sarcasm without the smile or wink is hard to see unless we already knew each other. Best to all!! Jan |
@recordchanger2018, I got off the acoustic treatment train a while back. It started when I bought my Quad ESL 57 panels. The previous owner used them in his design winning home that was featured in an architectural magazine, the name of which escapes me. No room treatments were used with the exception of some well placed furniture. I am not recommending that you buy a pair of ESL 57s, although I think if you like that look and it fits into your decor you could do a lot worse in selecting a speaker. You have been given some very good options as well from other posters. One thing I'd like to mention is the concept of using a "swarm" woofer system with any set of speakers you buy. I built my own version of this type of system, but it definitely helps with room nodes and I have found a lot of success with it. You can learn more here: http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html You can place these asymmetrically around the room and it works wonders to eliminate room issues. I will never go back. If you are daunted by the size of each box or if this is not going to satisfy your inner WAF, note that the boxes can be smaller in size, mine are 1.4 cu. ft (something like 8" x 10" x 8") with 8" woofers. Yes you will need a external crossover, but I found in my room those are much easier to "hide" than acoustic panels. I hope I have given you something else to think about other than the recurring man cave acoustical panel ideas. |
I know for a fact that most Hollywood celebrities do not want tweaks or stuff hanging off the walls or cable lifters or other little shiny obnoxious do dads all over the place. Look at Fabio’s system sometime. His room is clean, well organized, esthetically delightful and free from all that audiophile stuff hanging off of everything. |
All you cave dwelling men out there listen up! I am an architect and my daughter is an international designer. When you design and build multi million dollar homes and office buildings, you don’t want crap hanging from the ceiling and sticking out from the walls. I know for most of the “ deep state” in this hobby, form follows function. I agree 1000%!! However, clients who want perfect aesthetics refuse to clutter up their costly design statements. I really wanted to see if there were any breakthroughs in the acoustic field. I am so grateful for the Spatial and Larsen recommendations. |
mdbag I find it baffling how people will drop thousands upon thousands of dollars on equipment (and thousands on cable - which I find rediculus for multiple factual reasons I won't get into here) but limit their budget severely when it comes to accoutic treatment. I also find it redicurous. Remember, only quote facts. |
+1 mdbag Acoustic treatment is the first thing. Based on other writers whose names now escape me, the argument is made that the more controlled dispersion a speaker has, the less room treatment is needed to achieve comparable results. This comes at the cost of a constrained sweet spot though. Acoustic treatments make rooms much more speaker friendly, and let you select a much wider range of speakers, as well as enjoy the stereo effect somewhere besides the designated seating position. |
I find it baffling how people will drop thousands upon thousands of dollars on equipment (and thousands on cable - which I find rediculus for multiple factual reasons I won't get into here) but limit their budget severely when it comes to accoutic treatment. Sadly, it's no different than a guy who thinks that buying a more expensive set of golf clubs is going to cut off 15 strokes from his game (hire the Flippin golf coach for crying out loud and get a much greater return on the hard - earned dollars or keep dropping thousands for miniscule improvents - then continue to whine in frustration just like the rest of the cluless maggots...) |
The only thing I would add is that the rear wall directly behind the panels could be an issue, which is why panels are usually recommended to be placed way out away from the rear wall since the reflection waves would interfere. Also, toe in of panels could increase the possibility of side wall or rear corner reflections. |
No disrespect. After all you are the Audio Doctors! (and I am merely a physician, haha.) Never the less, I would say that with a dipole the sound perpendicular to the panel is canceled because of opposite polarity. So less side wall pressure and less ceiling pressure. The proportion of direct sound to the listening position relative to the reflected sound is greater than it would be with a conventional speaker. Sound pressure diminishes with distance (3 dB per foot if I remember correctly.) The ceiling reflections are not even 1st reflections, but 2nd or 3rd+ reflections at best, and so are much diminished in volume on that basis. Since the OP doesn't want room treatments clogging up the decor, I prefer to stand by my assertion that panel speakers will help to minimize room acoustic problems. I've had many electrostats and many box speakers. In my experience stat panels cause fewer room acoustics
problems. On the other hand, I am like everyone else on these forums. I'm pretty sure of myself even when I am wrong. ;) |
Leotis, and Mirolab, A live reflective space will still be affected by directional speakers, Almost all loudspeakers even with horn loading of the tweeter still throw out an abundance of energy. If you remember physics energy can not be created or destroyed. You can turn vibrational energy into heat by absorption. You can direct the sound of a directional loudspeaker toward the listener however, unless the listener's body is a complete broad based absorber sound frequencies will still bounce off his body, any hard reflective surfaces and the floor, hit the ceiling and bounce back. If the room sounds live it is called slap echo and you have to use absorbtive materials to combat that. Sandydennis, glad to hear they work well in your room, a small uneven room is not a large reflective room, totally different set of problems. Bryanbull, did you notice we were saying the same thing the D'appolito configuration was designed to eliminate ceiling and floor bounce however, even a speaker with a narrowed vertical dispersion can't eliminate floor bounced reflections. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
If possible, check out Tannoy speakers. The coincident tweeter is horn loaded, and dispersion is controlled to about 90 degrees. You get minimal high frequency splash off the ceiling and side walls. Plus, being coincident, the midrange is coherent in all directions. The sound does not change with respect to your angle to the speaker. Tannoy has a new very affordable model, plus their much more expensive lines. They have a unique sound, but are always fun & musical sounding. It's a music lover's speaker. |
Several speaker companies design their speaker systems for reduced vertical dispersion in order to minimize room effect from both ceiling and floor. This characteristic was one of the many design requirements when the team at Lucas Arts developed the standard for THX certification. Some "audiophiles" are under the misconception that the THX program is all about movies. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sound is sound. The advantages of a well designed speaker system are equally beneficial for all areas of entertainment. Today may speaker companies employ these basic design principles regardless of their desire to apply for THX certification and with a modicum of research you can find a product that will do a very nice job in achieving your listening goals. |
@recordchanger2018 - RE:... i have an acoustic problem, a high ceiling that echos.I’m with @audiotroy on this one - sound bounces off everything hard in a small space and creates havoc - higher the room the more it bounces One of the most effective treatments with minimal impact to the lower portion of the room is hanging "vinyl curtains" from the ceilings. I would start with one at the listener end of the room and then if required another at the speaker end of the room - you may need one at one side, depending on room shape Also - if you have high cupboards or bookshelves place a 1" thick layer of foam on top of them They helped a friend with his concrete condo - with 12 ft ceiling. - Most of his issues were within 18" of the ceiling. - We tried a single curtain and it tidied things up a lot - he got a lot of relief by hanging traps at the ceiling/wall boundary behind the listener. There is another option - 12" x 24" acoustic foam cylinders that hang from the ceiling - more expensive than the curtain approach - just as effective - looks kinda interesting - a talking point Unfortunately, concrete condos are an acoustic minefield An invisible option that could provide some relief is Acoustic Glue and drywall - it’s invisible and I would start with the wall behind the listener - Very High on the WAF!!! - you hang it using special acoustic green caulking - you leave a small 1/4" gap (or more) at top/bottom/sides for movement - tape it and paint it - looks like a wall - it;s about 3/4" - 1" thick when finished - you could do the facing wall as well - all you loose from the room dimension is 1.5" - 2" - no impact to existing art or furniture See this video on how to proceed... http://www.greengluecompany.com/videos/applying-green-glue-noiseproofing-compound It is not as effective as thevinyl curtains The simplest solution is to buy acoustic drapes and hang them floor-to-ceiling on the wall opposite the speakers AND use the 1" think foam on top of the high cupboards and bookshelves - Advantage - you can take the curtain with you if you move See: http://www.soundproofingtips.com/soundproof-curtains/ Regards - Steve |
I think it helps to distinguish between problems above and below the Schroeder frequency. Above the Schroeder frequency there is little more you can do than dampen the reflections. Below it is different story. Here you are dealing with room modes, and these require different measures: bass traps, multiple subs and dsp room equalization in any kind of mix that you can live with. Anyone interested in the room equalization and/or subwoofer route should now investigate the new DSpeaker Antimode X4 Preamp/DAC/crossover/room eq: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-x4.shtml From what I understand the OP’s problem seems to be above the Schroeder frequency, but I may be wrong. |
Whichever speaker you choose you will be compromised. Sound is just air waves bouncing around a room, and if you have a sub-optimal room, no speaker will fix that - just change the dynamics of how/where the waves move and thus what you hear. Have a look around this web site http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk. I built a custom audio room to their ratios - magically previously missing bass notes appeared everywhere - sorry, that doesn't help you. If you like your speakers, I'd spend money on room treatments, or if you're digital, maybe try using a DSP to digitally correct the room, but unsure how it would go with echo issues. Upgrade the ceiling and put some nice panels like these in http://www.decortech.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/stCuths-project-bottom-sideimageV.jpg. or nice rugs on the floor. |
The problem with most speakers is not always the drivers, ie a 10" woofer or whatever. The problem is usually a result of the cabinet resonance and what frequency it resonates at. High mass speakers have a low resonance point. Bad for your room, sounds good in car stereos especially if you are in the car next to you at a stop light. The whole car resonates becoming a huge speaker. Lighter and or smaller speakers have less and higher frequency resonance, which is much easier to blunt. |
To the original poster: * floor standing, or bookshelfs on a stand and how high is the tweeter/HF driver off the floor * how close are they to any other room boundaries * is there a big screen TV between them (audio/video system?) * is it a high ceiling, or vaulted one and if vaulted, are the speakers under the low, or high side * dome tweeter, or full-range driver (size of sweet spot) * is your seating position at, or away from a wall/window...and how far back * how wide are the speakers apart * is there a window behind your head * is your carpet Berber, or thicker...or is it wood floors * is your listening spot a fully upholstered chair and if you scratch your fingernails on it, is it noisy The point, is that everything makes a difference. Without lifting a finger for any room mods, moving the speakers further into the room -- closer to you -- and using a spacing of no more than 8', tweeter center to center, will help. Toeing them in so you're directly on axis with the tweeter will also lessen the echo effect. The more you're in the direct soundfield (the nearfield as some have mentioned), the less you're affected by the echo. Notice I said you and not your speakers. Do a bit of research on HRTF and you'll understand why. So we have HRTF, room impulse and frequency response, potential phase shift of a signal from the electronics and a persnicketty wife. Better pick up a pair of cans. :-D |
There are things one can do to "treat" a room that is compatible with normal room decor. As Shadorne mentioned, start with a thick carpet, or at least a large rug. This will reduce the slap echo of sound bouncing back and forth between the ceiling and the floor. If you have a lot of bare walls, put a decorative wall hanging or oriental carpet on the walls. Book cases or anything else along the wall will also act to break up reflections. Listening in the nearfield also helps to reduce the effect of the room because a higher percentage of the sound you hear will be coming directly from the speaker. This requires that the speaker be reasonably balanced for such listening (speakers sound much brighter when listening close up, so not too bright speakers will help). The use of tall dipole speakers is also a good idea if you can meet the requirement of locating the speaker well off the back wall (about 4 feet or more is needed). The height of such speakers means they do not radiate as much energy upward, and because they are dipoles, the front and back signals are out of phase and tend to cancel at the sides; the sound is more concentrated within the area between the speakers. In rooms that are really challenging, and where placement options are limited, a speaker designed to be very flexible in placement can be a big plus. For example, I've heard Gradient Revolutions used in some really difficult situations and they sounded quite good. No matter how bad a room seems to be, there are usually setups that will work. The challenge is finding them. It can take quite a bit of experimentation and patience to find the right spot. This is particularly the case because moving one speaker one inch can make a big difference if the speaker is sitting in or near a node (a place where major reflections are either reinforcing or cancelling a frequency). I would suggest googling the "Sumiko Method" of speaker setup; it is quite useful with tricky rooms. Good luck. |
The living rooms (my main listening rooms) in both my previous house and my current house have very high ceilings - 16 feet. I did not have a ceiling echo in either room. The current room is 24 x 14 with speakers on the long wall. All hard surfaces with parallel walls, ceilings, and floors and no treatments - not even an area rug. If I were you, I would speak to a couple of manufacturers such as Sean from Zu and Duke from Audiokinesis. |
The advice that most mirrors my experience comes from audiotroy. If someone come to me asking me to build a speaker for them and they had a lot of boundry room issues. I would have recommended one of two. One was nailed above. An MTM with a rug covering as much of the floor possible in front of the speakers. Next alternative would be a speaker with a wide front baffle. When we build speakers, we use Baffle step compensation to counteract the effects of the sound that shoots around the cabinet. The wider the cabinet front the less or no compensation is needed. With a wide front baffle, it helps keep all drivers firing in the direction the speaker is facing and stops midrange reflections. Still add the rug to the floor to help floor reflections. I then would add to get a sealed box woofer or a front firing port in this case. Drape as much of the rear wall as possible. You should be able to pull in some fairly solid results. |
Not all digital room correction is the same and some go beyond being merely a sophisticated frequency equalizer. For example, Impulse response correction: http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/irc.php I have not used and cannot vouch for any particular processing solution but I believe it is an approach that might be worth a trial. Good points overall by Audio Doctor I would say. Addressing floor reflections can certainly help as can isolation stands or pads under speakers in many cases where floors have give and are not rigid (at least with cleaning up the bass) . If smaller monitor speaekrs are used (not tall floorstanders) placement on short isolation stands like Isoacoustics brand with slight tilt up especially if room is not very deep can help to make for a less offensive situation in regards to a more natural sounding soundstage and imaging. Finally I would add that I find in very lively sounding rooms, less is often more when it comes to speakers and smaller models (floorstander or monitor) often tend to fit in best. In my problem room, I once tried a refoamed pair of small vintage Boston A30 monitors (can be had used for used for well under $100) in there and these might have been the best sound of anything I've tried in that particular room, including other modern monitors and floorstanders costing well into the 4 digit range.. |
Sorry to have to chime in guys, we have owned line arrays, diapoles and most of the kinds of loudpeakers out there. 30 years plus of professional experience here. If you have a high ceiling there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, other than use room treatments. Period. A good rug can help, which will absorb some of the enegy that would bounce up but that is it. If you hang a treatment off of the ceiling you will eliminate slap echo but you don't want to do that. Electronic room correction, diapoles and line arrays will not eliminate slap echo. Electronic rooom correction can tune out frequency peaks and valleys to ensure a flater frequency response, no room correction system unless it was in real time and could identify direct sound vs reflected sound and be able to filter out the reflected sound. If you have large parallel surfaces sound will bounce off the floor, travel to the ceiling and bounce down, no loudspeaker in the world can eliminate that. Atttractive room treatment panels like Contuzzi suggested will help to absorb some reflected sound which would help the sound of the room but not fix it entirely. A diapole will eliminate side to side reflections as a diapole has a figure 8 radiation pattern. Even a speaker with narrow vertical radiaton patttern which is a diappolito array will eliminate sound bouncing off the floor in an untreated room it can help though. A line arry provides very even pressurization but still will suffer from floor bounce. Your best case senario use an attractive floor covering with an acoustical matt, and use speakers which are diappolito designs and get the speakers closer to your ears in a nearfield arrangement. Larson at least works with controlled dispersion if you have the corners free and do sound excellent, however, the floor bounce issue/reflected ceiling will stlll make the room sound too live. So if you want to do the maximum: 1: Rug with acoustical matting 2: Diapollito speakers 3: Near field listening 4: Room correction to help flatten any frequency issues which would arrise from any of the above. Good luck. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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Lots of good suggestions. What's your budget? I recently downsized from a 16x24x10 room to a 13x16x10 room. I had Peak Consult Zoltans that I sold and tried my YG Carmels, but wasn't completely satisfied, even with Tact room correction. I read about and listened to lots of speakers and ended up with Raidho D2, which sound fantastic in this room. They're designed to be listened to in the near field and far apart--farther from each other than from you. The D1 should also work well. At a cheaper price I also really liked the Larsons, which as mentioned sound good up against the wall. Line arrays don't put out much vertical energy, but many would be rather large for your room. I used Apogees in a room your size with good results, but they'd need to be along the short wall. Also consider some ceiling diffusers that are visually benign. Even though it didn't work for me with my Carmels, I think the room correction route is worth a try. Good luck... |
I'll second grannyring's system. I've heard it with the Lyngdorf and it sounds truly beautiful. Another speaker to look into that sounds great in any room is the Sanders 10e ESL system. Yes, they sell a system with the speakers and it sounds absolutely stunning. I've heard it on at least 4-5 occasions at the Axpona in Chicago and it always is a place I can count on to provide beautiful music of all types. This is in typical hotel rooms with very little to no sound treatment other than the system itself. |
I own the Lyngdorf 2170 and have been a vocal advocate of this gem. Yes it is the ideal system for your situation. It is amazing amp, preamp, dac, and SOTA room correction system all in one attractive case. It will assure your speakers sound as intended in your room. I have owned separates of both SS and tube design that cost $20,000 or so combined and the 2170 is better. The room correction is part of the reason. Give it a good power cord, conditioner, leave it on and you will be amazed at the beautiful music you hear. The key to getting the most out of it is using the internal dac. The synergy and simplicity of the one unit will have you selling that expensive dac you may have. Sell those other power cords and ICs as they are also no longer needed. USB input sounds the best and can do DSD. It only pulls some 20-30 watts while in use and never gets hot. It runs cool. This piece is a no fuss centerpiece of an audio system that is not fussy to use or to make sound right. Set it and forget it while you enjoy music with beautiful tonality and richness. It flies under the radar here in the states, but it truly is a rare find. The sound quality difference pre and post room correction will be shocking in your room. |
I have speakers in various rooms, including a similar room to yours with similar high ceiling and acoustic challenges and no ability to treat (WAF). I’d propose fighting the acoustics in a room like that, especially if not able to do extensive treatments, is an exercise in futility. That has been my experience in my similar room especially in comparison to other more amenable rooms in my home. In cases like, that, I would propose not fighting the acoustics rather just let the music flow with more omnidirectional speakers that will fill the room with sound rather than attempt and fail at projecting it solely towards you. This will at least give the impression of what a live performance would sound like in that room rather than some artificially echoey mess. I use OHM Walsh speakers in my room like that. I’ve also tried various more conventional monitor speakers in there as well largely to no great avail but these particular omnis work pretty well. |
I would suggest something a little different: Larsen speakers are designed to work with virtually any room and sound great. Larsens are an updated version of the Stig Carlsson designs. These come in three models, at different price points starting at under $2K. They are designed to be placed on a long wall in your room, right up against the wall, compared to OB and/or dipoles that require placement several feet out into your room. I used to sell these (no affiliation now) and I never found a room where the Larsens didn't work. I sold a pair of Larsen 8s to a gent who had the worst room I ever experienced: 35' wide, 12' deep, 12' high, the front wall was rock and the rear wall (behind the seating position) was all glass. Think of an enclosed porch. On top of that, the preferred seating position was offset 2/3 to the right side of the room. Long story short, after some careful positioning the Larsens sounded great, even in this room. |
