This is my 1st post here. I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:
I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?
I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:
Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak
D2604
tweeter (48$/unit). PMC in its "i" series - Seas
27TFFC (45$/unit). Spendor, "A" series - Seas
29TFF/W
(52$/unit).
I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are? My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):
Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas
T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas
W18NX (196$/unit)
Marten Form Floor: Accuton
C173-6-095
woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)
Merlin VSM (as second hand only):
Dynaudio D330/A
tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak
18W/8545-01
(173$/unit).
BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design).
So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
Hi Roy - old thread, but curious where you landed on this. I'm in a very similar boat - happy TSM owner for the last 17 years, auditioned a number of things in that time but haven't found anything that pushes my buttons the same way musically. That said, they TSMs obviously aren't perfect, and there's a lot of interesting stuff out there these days.
If you're still looking for something with high quality components and a similar form factor to the TSM, the Dynaudio Special Forty looks very interesting. I'm going to see if I can audition them somewhere.
1) Although premium loudspeaker companies may use drivers sourced from large volume driver makers (Scanspeak, Seas, Focal, etc.), they usually work with the design teams of the driver manufacturers to come up with units to their exact specification. So it’s not just an off the shelf Seas 1" tweeter for example, it has been tweaked. And then the speaker manufacturers tweak the drivers further once they get them in house to perform to their design objectives.
2) There is significant cost in utilizing designers who have gained in wisdom and experience over their years in the business. Just like in any other business, this experience and ’tricks of the trade’ can be invaluable in how the speaker ultimately sounds.
3) There is a significant amount of listening and measurement to produce a certain sound and measurably flat response. Harbeth, Spendor, ATC, PMC, to name a few - use state of the art development software and measurement equipment to achieve ’studio monitor’ requirements. (Which may be different than their ’consumer’ goals). And they have DECADES of experience working with the top European driver manufacturers as materials science has advanced. The PMC PB1i which I own ’appears’ to have a pretty basic 3" Vifa dome midrange. But PMC has tweaked the driver and designed a crossover with very specific parts and slopes to achieve a sound and performance that mates beautifully with their goals to achieve a flat power response and even output for all of the drivers in the speaker. To say the speaker uses a "$60 Seas tweeter and a $100 midrange" totally misses the point. And to say that an $800 ATC dome midrange would be "better" in that design also misses the point. Such a driver may be very inefficient, or have to be driven very loud to achieve it’s optimum sound, etc. Which may not be the goal of a ’consumer’ speaker that needs to sound great at low/all levels.
My advice would be to find a speaker that pushes all of your buttons. There are lots of speakers that are "ok" - but we know in this hobby that "just ok" is ultimately unsatisfying. Probably sooner rather than later. There are some exceptions, of course, but the speakers that are at that next level (which for some starts around $5k/pair) - are probably designed by experienced professionals with industry manufacturing relationships and significant [design and testing] resources. Not by someone that just purchased crossover design software and will buy his drivers from Madisound or other distributor. Good luck.
Any speakers company with substantial activity works with a variety of OEM manufacturers and various suppliers. Is cannot do everything itself, so constraints are imposed over the parts to be used in every model as a function of its destination price, target margin, number of units expected to be sold etc. The design, superb as it may be, is a one time cost. The parts used are costing per unit. So, if a company saves 20$ per tweeter, it's 40$ per sale X the number of sales that are added to its margin. And that is really OK, I wouldn't expect any company not to do what it can to increase its margin.
On the other hand, it is my right as a potential buyer to seek the maximum amount of data regarding a certain product, components included. And to my skeptical nature (and practical experience), the explanation by which the design is more important, that the quality of parts is secondary and the general atmosphere of taboo over such questions- is way to convenient. Of course manufacturers would like everyone not to venture to deeply into their products and have everyone believe in their "magic". I don't buy this (pun intended...)
Whatever the design the transducers used will impose limits the designer will work within said limits. Many loudspeaker manufacturers use very affordable parts so they can make profits. Those saying that cheap is fine its the magic of the designers are a bit off and I feel they think us loudspeaker designers to have a magic when we do not. We work with many compromise to come up with a useful design. And yes the parts quality maters a good bit. Sure a good cook can make poor quality food palatable but just think what they would do with quality ingredients to start with?
It isn't in my system, and I know the shl5 for quite a few years now on different systems. For my taste, clarity, especially in the top end, is not one of the shl5's virtues. Btw, i uswd to own the spendor sp 1/2. It was quite similar in most regards. Never did a "head to head" comparison on the same system in the same room, but the general impression was very similar.
It's not just the basic tweeter (seas 27tbc). I know the shl5 quite well (a friend of mine owns a pair). I have many issues with its design (the thin cabinets, the dispersion of 2 tweeters and more), which makes it what it is- a fun speaker overall with lots of depth and room filling dynamics, but no where near the level of clarity or bass presicion I'm looking for. I do like it, but I can't live with it for critical listening.
Here is the link for the H4’s from Tyler Acoustics and they are on special. Give Ty a call to discuss at (270) 691-9500 and tell him Bob from Montreal referred you. http://www.tyleracoustics.com/Specials.html
Based on what's been written so far, I'd go with house-manufactured drivers and tweeters. Reference 3A Grand Veenas come to mind, as do Golden Ear Tritons.
You might even be able to consider a Trenner and Friedl model.
It sounds like that you don't want a kit, but looking is free. This is a John Krutke design. Extremely well known in builders circles. This would be and enjoyable speaker. Seems to meet all of your criteria.
To comment on deep bass with a 6.5 inch woofer... its true that moving enough air with a small driver isn't ideal for anyone who likes that impact that comes from larger woofers, but multiple small drivers does work. Todays designs not all must mostly are that narrow front baffle. That's why you see so many speakers today with 2, 3 or even 4 - 61/2 inch woofers in the bass section. I built an MTM using a 6.8 Inch HiVi..(same as the early Totem Forest) This speaker was very surprising on the low end and I'd have no problem comparing it with a decent 10 inch. In cone area alone 2 6 1/2 inch compare with about a 8 1/2 inch woofer.
Hi, I have been a music lover for many years and have had many different speakers and many amps and preamps. I guess I could be considered an audiophile and have spent decent amounts of money over the past 20 years. Have you heard of Tyler Acoustics from Owensboro, Kentucky. Ty is a real gentleman and uses high quality drivers from Scanspeak and Seas and his crossovers are designed with the help of Danny Ritchie. He can build you speakers with your preferences. He has 2 lines that could be of interest to you. His Highland line using all Scanspeak quality drivers and his Decade SE line using all Seas drivers. Check his website and give him a call to discuss, you will find him very helpfull and knowledgeable and his prices are quite reasonable as he sells factory direct. He has the H4's which are a 2 way design that would probably fit your needs exactly and can also make some mods. to furhter accomodate your needs. I have purchased 4 different pairs from him and love them all and still have 3 pairs and are considering upgrading one pair to his Highland premium line. In the past I have owned some Celestions Dittons,Sonus Faber's Concertos and Grand Pianos, Castle Winchesters, Acoustic Zen Adagios, Paradigm Reference series and Revel Studios. In my opinion, Tylers are unbeatable at their price points and really recommend that you call him to discuss. Best of luck, Shafto
No, I can't recommend anything, it was a thought, and personally I think that's what I like for a moderate size room. What I have is not what you seek, those Vifa drivers are okay but you want the highest quality, besides these are older speakers and no longer available. Another thought. Maybe you should check out more esoteric brands like LaHave in Canada and some Swiss and Dutch speakers, don't remember the names. Some small boutique European compamies might be offering exactly what you are looking for. Auditioning can be a problem, true, if possible at all. There is a dealer in New York City that deals in esoteric Euro brands. Take a look - High Water Sound.
I'm all for it, but don't know of any 8 inch 2 Ways up to the specks I'm looking for- If you know of any I'd appreciate a recommendation. Also, an 8 Inch driver will have to be of superb quality in order deliver the mid range quality a high end 6-6.5 Inch driver is capable of. There is a price to be paid in large drivers, such as greater mass and more surface deformations.
Thank you all for your recommendations, I’m looking into the relevant websites. The problem with those who sell directly is that I can’t audition, so the only option is a calculated guess. And yet, I’ve learned of some interesting manufacturers I’ve never heard of.
A few words about the main compromise in my price range:
As I see it, there is one main compromise in my price range, which is the very fact that given that level of quality of the components, I’m limited to 2 Way designs. It IS a compromise. Deep bass, the way I perceive it, cannot be generated from a single 6-6.5’’ driver, even with great excursion capabilities and with the very best cabinet design. There simply isn’t enough radiating area to push the necessary amount of air. For those who prefer the deep bass over the benefits of high end components, there are speakers such as audio physics’ relevant specimens in the price range, the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven grand/baby grand and In the mid 2000’s there were the Von Schweikert Vr4jr just to name a few. They are all made of middle of the road components (some even simpler), good designs and usually decent cabinets. I used to own the Beethoven grad for about a year. It had wonderful bass and dynamic range, and it’s a fun speaker I’ve enjoyed tremendously at a certain time. However, It lacked the clarity and precision of simpler speakers made of superior components I’ve auditioned or owned and was quite "colored". Same goes with audio Physic (although to my taste they are better, at least the ones from the mid 2000’s which I have experience with).
In any case, I willingly accept the compromise in the number of drivers and radiating area. I do not accept a significant compromise in the components themselves, not at this price point.
Some one mentioned Chapman Audio speakers. I heard them at he RMAF a couple years ago. Very, very nice. Relaxed but still involving. A small company in Washington state. They are transmission line so the cabinet resonance is much better controlled then most speakers. You probably noticed that with your adagios.
Sounds real is right, but kind of. My impression is a little different.
For any given type of technology, Be or AMT or whatever, there are excellent and crappy versions. In and of themselves, diamond or Be tweeters are not all that. Still, there are great versions of each.
As was mentioned before though, the truth is for commercial designs, the quality of parts in the crossover may or may not be all that. As far as I can tell, with few exceptions, the speaker prices are often set solely on driver cost. Since that's true, there's usually very little cause to spend a lot in the crossover.
Also, some one mentioned upgrading crossover parts as a good idea. While I often recommend it, I've seen a lot of commercial speakers with really wonky crossovers that, while they would benefit from a better tweeter cap, really desperately need a new crossover design.
Over the past 30 or so years, I've had and auditioned many very nice speakers - electrostatic, ribbon and box - the Quad ESL 63s one of my favorites. When I downsized my environment, I went on the search to find something in a small package that would sound as much like real music as the Quads. After much evaluation, for a two way dynamic speaker, I found few dynamic speakers that sounded less boxy and more like real live music (in spite of it' low $,2000.00 price tag) than the Gershman Chameleon. Because of my long time love of electrostats and ribbons and now with a bit more room, I now have a set of Magie 1.7s and possibly upgrading to the 3.7is, but for a very musical 2 way un-boxy box with very good detail, decent base and convincing stage - check out the little Gershmans. Regards, Jim
Important to note here, the cost of a driver does not indicate how good it sounds. In many/most cases the technology they use is suspect. Example what are the sonic benefits of diamond coated diaphragms. What is so great sounding about ribbon tweeters, plasma tweeters?
So expensive drivers don't necessarily sound great or even better. I think to many speakers today are forward and lean. The audio industry is trying to convince us that is what we should fall in love with. Count my out.
I have owned a pair of Golden Ear Triton 1's for @ a year now. I believe for the money they are a great value! You owe it to yourself to listen to them. I love the staging. They also are very revealing. Vocals,piano,sax and cymbals all sounded wonderful to me. I don't have expensive equipment and the Triton1's sound blows me away. It's like all new music.
Anybody want to comment on the original Joachim Gerhard designed audio physic speakers? I believe they fall into camp of (I wouldn't say dirt cheap), but relatively inexpensive drivers (no diamond or berriliuyn tweeters here), and always achieved amazing sound outright, let alone for the price. Perhaps a good example of the whole being FAR MORE than the sum of the parts?
BTW I have just restored and modified a pair of Swedish concrete speakers with the E J Jordan Eikona full range drive units, stunning drive unit and I would recommend anyone to try to listen to these.
Best thing to do is go out and audition loudspeakers you feel fit your needs as your needs will be quite different to others just like my needs are different to yours. My only word of caution which if you say you have knowledge of driver manufacturers you will be very aware of; expensive drivers can often mean either custom made or limited run models so any repair/replacement needs further down the line will leave you with nothing more than silent boxes!
@Rippet: I’ve owned a pair of Adagios for about a year, and had mixed feelings about them. There were some things they did great but also some serious problems. The part (pun intended) that I couldn’t live with eventually was the tweeter. I have no idea which tweeter it was, but for my ears it was muffled and too "dark". I don’t know if it was the voicing the manufacturer intended from the start or an attempt to mask some tweeter’s limits by narrowing some of its bandwith in the cross, but something there wasn’t to my liking. On the other hand, it had very good, uncolored mids and exceptional bass. The heavy, very well designed transmission line cabinet has no doubt a substantial part in it. I do recommend it to people asking for my advice, but I was unable to live with it eventually.
To those who are sure I'm making a great mistake etc., I’ve said it before and I’ll say it one last time: I’m not in this since yesterday. I’ve owned myself over 20 pairs of speakers, worked in hi-fi sales for several years and am well acquainted with driver & speaker manufacturers. According to my experience, a speaker is nothing like a painting, a musical instrument or a work of art. It’s like any other technical device, same as an amp or a car. And no design, ingenious as it may be, can surpass the inherent limits of sub-par components. Take a look back at my kick drum example. there are things that a basic driver simply can’t do. Your experience may be different, and that’s fine. But that wasn’t my question, and I WILL NOT put my money on expensive speakers made from cheap parts UNLESS I have first ruled out those who offer a much better parts/retail ratio.
You are so right about speakers built with .50c tweeters etc. Take a look at the Wilson Benesch Square 2. Nice floor stander. The mid/woofer is about a $500 piece manufactured in house, literally So much engineering not only in their drivers but the enclosure as well. http://wilson-benesch.com
If you dig a little you can find an expanded view of that mid/woofer. Exceptional.
I owned a pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios for a couple of years. I have since upgraded way beyond their price point. But for $4500/$5000 they sounded better than any speaker I heard up to $8,000. Go read some reviews. Magnificent speaker at that price point.
Hi Roy, I picked up some Thiel 3.7s about 6 months ago for 6,500. Brilliant speaker. You need some power, but I can't say enough good things about them.
If you dont want to make your own, here's a finished product for your consideration, using very high quality ScanSpeak Drivers that I have worked with for many years in a variety of the products we make.
I have owned, serviced and sold many pairs of speakers over the years. I can tell you without a doubt that measuring a speaker by the total cost of the drivers is a mistake. I would use some specific examples, but I don’t want to step on any toes.
This would be just as big of a mistake as judging a great painting by the quality of the canvas and paints. You are paying for the talent and ear of the designer. More expensive drivers do not equal better sound. Grasshopper, do not focus on the tech, focus on the music.
Another small company to look at is Chapman Audio Systems. The T-5 is a 3-way (I know you were looking for a 2-way) floorstander within your budget that is very well worth checking out.
You may want to take a look at smaller companies. Vapor Audio , Salk Sound, and Selah Audio all make fantastic speakers with top of the line drivers with real world prices as they sell direct. Check out their websites and more info on AudioCircle if you are interested.
Because for doing such a thing you need to really now what you’re doing or you’ll end up seriously screwing up your speakers. I’m no engineer, electrician or even a DIYer. Maybe someday... Not there yet.
To elaborate on a theme by Dgarretson, why not buy speakers that sound good, and improve the crossovers? Retain the same values, but use better components, especially caps.
It’s a rare crossover that can’t be vastly improved for $500 in parts. I did this for a neighbour a few years ago - he had some nice bookshelf speakers and was thinking of upgrading, but to improve the sound had to spend thousands. I suggested upgrading the two crossovers, $1000, and the result was spectacular. Night and day.
Wow! I didn’t expect such a big (and fruitful) discussion. Thank you all for your comments, seriously! In any case, here are a few answers to some of your comments:
About DIY: I have nothing but profound appreciation to people who can build their own speakers, and have no doubt that when you "cook your own food" you have much better control over the end result, and can make up your own mind regarding if and how to compromise or cut corners. However, this isn’t for me. I don’t have the patience, the tools or the know-how. Maybe someday after retirement...
About brands who make their own drivers: I have mixed feelings about those, and after many auditions over the years came to the conclusion that it’s the same as any brand. They do theoretically have the ability to use better drivers than competitors who buy them off the shelf, but it doesn’t mean they won’t be tempted to cut corners as anyone else. I’ve heard speakers from Focal, B&W, Dynaudio, Monitor Audio (only the platinum line sounded good to me), Morel, and others who make their own drivers. Some were fantastic, some were mediocre and some were awful. A very vivid example for me came from Morel, one of my favorites (and with whom I worked before- great guys). The Octave Signature 5.25’’ is a phenomenal speaker, IMHO one of the very best compact monitors out there (excluding some super expensive exotics). Drivers, crossover, cabinets- all of very high quality and working together marvelously. On the other hand, the relatively new Octave 6’’ is simply awful (read the stereophille review- it’s all true...). I have no idea what went wrong. They make everything from A to Z, have all the experience and knowledge and yet... summing up this point, the brands which produce their own drivers should be judged the same as everyone.
About electrostatic speakers: I can’t connect visually. It has nothing to do with how any of them sounds... not in my living room. Totally a matter of taste here.
About Scansonic: It just so happens that 2 weeks ago I went to the local importer, auditioned 3 of them- the 2.5, 3.5 and 5. Didn’t like them. The 2.5 (apologies in advance to whoever enjoys them, it’s only my opinion), was simply terrible. Muffled, out-of-control "single note bass" and just sounds wrong. Waaaay too much pressure is put on these 2 tiny drivers, with the down-firing port just making it worse. The 3.5 and 5 were far better in every respect, but still, nothing to write about home. Again- Scansonic owners- take no offence, it’s just this one guy’s opinion.
About the ratio between part costs and retail: This is exactly my point. I’m not looking for the ones that sell for $5,000 pair containing 250$ worth of parts (retail) in each- a 10X ratio. I’m looking for the exceptional ones. I’ve already brought some examples (and looking for more) but here’s another one: http://www.teddypardo.com/speakers/sp1v.html These little ones contain parts which retail for about 2,000$ (Drivers only- over 1,000$: Seas W12CY + Seas T25CF), and are sold only for 3,000$. This is a phenomenal parts/retail value, and I’m sure it isn’t the only one. BTW, I’ve auditioned these (they sound freakin’ amazing) and had a very interesting conversation with the designer (teddy- a very nice, modest and interesting person). They aren’t for me strictly due to their minute size. If he had a floorstanding 6’’ version- I would have already purchased them. Bottom line- there are way better ratios and better return for the retail price invested- but it does require digging in, and also asking for other peoples recommendations.
A few words about crossovers: It is indeed difficult to asses the quality of the crossovers, it isn’t an off-the-shelf part like drivers that can be easily compared. However, after opening up a few speakers in the past, it can be easily seen if corners were cut. I’ve seen many crossovers built from cheap parts, far from the drivers or the cabinet level. And why wouldn’t they? Nobody sees them... However, sometimes there are surprises. One of the reasons why I like my humble Merlins so much is because no corners were cut, including the crossover. They contain a very well built to the point of over-engineered crossover. Why? probably because the late owner of Merlin (R.I.P.) took his work very seriously, with real passion. That is the spirit of engineering I’m looking for.
About Marten: Timlub- thanks for tweeters recognition! seems right. I’ve auditioned the Formfloor and they were great. I did have a few issues with them, but not deal breakers. Overall, they seem to present a very good value. I’ve also auditioned the Miles 5 at a friends house- these were simply PHENOMENAL. They were so good I could’t really find anything I would like improve (given the room size). However, these are not for my pockets, maybe 2nd hand someday.
About your recommendations: Thanks! there were some I’ve never heard of.
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