Speakers in the 5-6K$ region & their components


Hi all,

This is my 1st post here.
I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:

I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?

I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:

Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak D2604 tweeter (48$/unit).
PMC in its "i" series - Seas 27TFFC (45$/unit).
Spendor, "A" series - Seas 29TFF/W (52$/unit).

I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are?
My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):

Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas W18NX (196$/unit)

Marten Form Floor: Accuton C173-6-095 woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)

Merlin VSM (as second hand only): Dynaudio D330/A tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (173$/unit).

BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design). 

So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
roylindenfeld

Showing 11 responses by roylindenfeld

I was kinda expecting this reaction, so I’ve narrowed my question strictly to the technical domain.
But since you’ve asked- then no, the final sound is what matters, and the speakers I’m looking for are to be well auditioned before buying.
However, the potential of a speaker with a 50$ tweeter is far lower than a speaker with a 300$ tweeter (it isn’t the cost per se, it’s the component specs which are far better). There is simply way more that can be extracted from it. That’s why I prefer to start there.

Any speaker (or any other device) is made of design + components. Both of them must be good. No design, good as it may be, can substitute high-quality components. So, I prefer to try those with the best components in my price range as a rule of thumb. If their design sucks (it happens)- It’ll be heard and I’ll move on to the next one.

Thank you both for your decisive opinion, but my experience (which included working closely with a speakers & drivers manufacturers) suggests otherwise. The cabinet is very important and by no means am I looking for speakers with inferior cabinets. It all has to be good- design, drivers and cabinets- save none.
And no cabinet/design can compensate for the limits of a mediocre driver.
Simple example:
Try to play loudly an uncompressed kick drum recording on a 2 way speaker with Scanspeak P17WJ00- an inexpensive 6.5’’ woofer of decent (but not great) performance, popular with several speaker brands. The result may be the destruction of the driver. Why? because it doesn’t have enough excursion, it’s rubber surroundings are too thin and it lacks magnet power. For the same reasons, even before the breaking point, the kick drum won’t sound very punchy.
Try the same with Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (found in the Merlin VSM and Proac 2.5), or any driver from the morel MW series, and it’ll eat it without salt and sound wonderful. Why? Strong thick surrounds, plenty of magnet power and long linear excursion. and these things cost more. In this example, the driver, given a 2 Way design, is a clear limiting factor that no cabinet or design can compensate. Same goes with driver’s bandwith, inherent distortions and what not. And I want as little limiting factors in my speaker components as possible.
So, recommendations, anyone? BTW, the Fritz’s look good and I’ve never heard about them before.
Wow! I didn’t expect such a big (and fruitful) discussion. Thank you all for your comments, seriously!
In any case, here are a few answers to some of your comments:

About DIY: I have nothing but profound appreciation to people who can build their own speakers, and have no doubt that when you "cook your own food" you have much better control over the end result, and can make up your own mind regarding if and how to compromise or cut corners. However, this isn’t for me. I don’t have the patience, the tools or the know-how. Maybe someday after retirement...

About brands who make their own drivers: I have mixed feelings about those, and after many auditions over the years came to the conclusion that it’s the same as any brand. They do theoretically have the ability to use better drivers than competitors who buy them off the shelf, but it doesn’t mean they won’t be tempted to cut corners as anyone else. I’ve heard speakers from Focal, B&W, Dynaudio, Monitor Audio (only the platinum line sounded good to me), Morel, and others who make their own drivers. Some were fantastic, some were mediocre and some were awful. A very vivid example for me came from Morel, one of my favorites (and with whom I worked before- great guys). The Octave Signature 5.25’’ is a phenomenal speaker, IMHO one of the very best compact monitors out there (excluding some super expensive exotics). Drivers, crossover, cabinets- all of very high quality and working together marvelously. On the other hand, the relatively new Octave 6’’ is simply awful (read the stereophille review- it’s all true...). I have no idea what went wrong. They make everything from A to Z, have all the experience and knowledge and yet... summing up this point, the brands which produce their own drivers should be judged the same as everyone.

About electrostatic speakers: I can’t connect visually. It has nothing to do with how any of them sounds... not in my living room. Totally a matter of taste here.

About Scansonic: It just so happens that 2 weeks ago I went to the local importer, auditioned 3 of them- the 2.5, 3.5 and 5. Didn’t like them. The 2.5 (apologies in advance to whoever enjoys them, it’s only my opinion), was simply terrible. Muffled, out-of-control "single note bass" and just sounds wrong. Waaaay too much pressure is put on these 2 tiny drivers, with the down-firing port just making it worse. The 3.5 and 5 were far better in every respect, but still, nothing to write about home. Again- Scansonic owners- take no offence, it’s just this one guy’s opinion.

About the ratio between part costs and retail: This is exactly my point. I’m not looking for the ones that sell for $5,000 pair containing 250$ worth of parts (retail) in each- a 10X ratio. I’m looking for the exceptional ones. I’ve already brought some examples (and looking for more) but here’s another one: http://www.teddypardo.com/speakers/sp1v.html
These little ones contain parts which retail for about 2,000$ (Drivers only- over 1,000$: Seas W12CY + Seas T25CF), and are sold only for 3,000$. This is a phenomenal parts/retail value, and I’m sure it isn’t the only one. BTW, I’ve auditioned these (they sound freakin’ amazing) and had a very interesting conversation with the designer (teddy- a very nice, modest and interesting person). They aren’t for me strictly due to their minute size. If he had a floorstanding 6’’ version- I would have already purchased them. Bottom line- there are way better ratios and better return for the retail price invested- but it does require digging in, and also asking for other peoples recommendations.

A few words about crossovers: It is indeed difficult to asses the quality of the crossovers, it isn’t an off-the-shelf part like drivers that can be easily compared. However, after opening up a few speakers in the past, it can be easily seen if corners were cut. I’ve seen many crossovers built from cheap parts, far from the drivers or the cabinet level. And why wouldn’t they? Nobody sees them... However, sometimes there are surprises. One of the reasons why I like my humble Merlins so much is because no corners were cut, including the crossover. They contain a very well built to the point of over-engineered crossover. Why? probably because the late owner of Merlin (R.I.P.) took his work very seriously, with real passion. That is the spirit of engineering I’m looking for.

About Marten: Timlub- thanks for tweeters recognition! seems right. I’ve auditioned the Formfloor and they were great. I did have a few issues with them, but not deal breakers. Overall, they seem to present a very good value. I’ve also auditioned the Miles 5 at a friends house- these were simply PHENOMENAL. They were so good I could’t really find anything I would like improve (given the room size). However, these are not for my pockets, maybe 2nd hand someday.

About your recommendations: Thanks! there were some I’ve never heard of.

Because for doing such a thing you need to really now what you’re doing or you’ll end up seriously screwing up your speakers. I’m no engineer, electrician or even a DIYer. Maybe someday... Not there yet.
@Rippet: I’ve owned a pair of Adagios for about a year, and had mixed feelings about them. There were some things they did great but also some serious problems. The part (pun intended) that I couldn’t live with eventually was the tweeter. I have no idea which tweeter it was, but for my ears it was muffled and too "dark". I don’t know if it was the voicing the manufacturer intended from the start or an attempt to mask some tweeter’s limits by narrowing some of its bandwith in the cross, but something there wasn’t to my liking. On the other hand, it had very good, uncolored mids and exceptional bass. The heavy, very well designed transmission line cabinet has no doubt a substantial part in it. I do recommend it to people asking for my advice, but I was unable to live with it eventually.
To those who are sure I'm making a great mistake etc., I’ve said it before and I’ll say it one last time: I’m not in this since yesterday. I’ve owned myself over 20 pairs of speakers, worked in hi-fi sales for several years and am well acquainted with driver & speaker manufacturers.
According to my experience, a speaker is nothing like a painting, a musical instrument or a work of art. It’s like any other technical device, same as an amp or a car. And no design, ingenious as it may be, can surpass the inherent limits of sub-par components. Take a look back at my kick drum example. there are things that a basic driver simply can’t do.
Your experience may be different, and that’s fine. But that wasn’t my question, and I WILL NOT put my money on expensive speakers made from cheap parts UNLESS I have first ruled out those who offer a much better parts/retail ratio.
Thank you all for your recommendations, I’m looking into the relevant websites. The problem with those who sell directly is that I can’t audition, so the only option is a calculated guess. And yet, I’ve learned of some interesting manufacturers I’ve never heard of.

A few words about the main compromise in my price range:

As I see it, there is one main compromise in my price range, which is the very fact that given that level of quality of the components, I’m limited to 2 Way designs. It IS a compromise. Deep bass, the way I perceive it, cannot be generated from a single 6-6.5’’ driver, even with great excursion capabilities and with the very best cabinet design. There simply isn’t enough radiating area to push the necessary amount of air.
For those who prefer the deep bass over the benefits of high end components, there are speakers such as audio physics’ relevant specimens in the price range, the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven grand/baby grand and In the mid 2000’s there were the Von Schweikert Vr4jr just to name a few. They are all made of middle of the road components (some even simpler), good designs and usually decent cabinets.
I used to own the Beethoven grad for about a year. It had wonderful bass and dynamic range, and it’s a fun speaker I’ve enjoyed tremendously at a certain time. However, It lacked the clarity and precision of simpler speakers made of superior components I’ve auditioned or owned and was quite "colored". Same goes with audio Physic (although to my taste they are better, at least the ones from the mid 2000’s which I have experience with).

In any case, I willingly accept the compromise in the number of drivers and radiating area. I do not accept a significant compromise in the components themselves, not at this price point.
I'm all for it, but don't know of any 8 inch 2 Ways up to the specks I'm looking for- If you know of any I'd appreciate a recommendation. Also, an 8 Inch driver will have to be of superb quality in order deliver the mid range quality a high end 6-6.5 Inch driver is capable of. There is a price to be paid in large drivers, such as greater mass and more surface deformations.
It's not just the basic tweeter (seas 27tbc). I know the shl5 quite well (a friend of mine owns a pair). I have many issues with its design (the thin cabinets, the dispersion of 2 tweeters and more), which makes it what it is- a fun speaker overall with lots of depth and room filling dynamics, but no where near the level of clarity or bass presicion I'm looking for. I do like it, but I can't live with it for critical listening.
It isn't in my system, and I know the shl5 for quite a few years now on different systems. For my taste, clarity, especially in the top end, is not one of the shl5's virtues. Btw, i uswd to own the spendor sp 1/2. It was quite similar in most regards. Never did a "head to head" comparison on the same system in the same room, but the general impression was very similar.
To add to johnk's post:

Any speakers company with substantial activity works with a variety of OEM manufacturers and various suppliers. Is cannot do everything itself, so constraints are imposed over the parts to be used in every model as a function of its destination price, target margin, number of units expected to be sold etc. The design, superb as it may be, is a one time cost. The parts used are costing per unit. So, if a company saves 20$ per tweeter, it's 40$ per sale X the number of sales that are added to its margin.
And that is really OK, I wouldn't expect any company not to do what it can to increase its margin.

On the other hand, it is my right as a potential buyer to seek the maximum amount of data regarding a certain product, components included. And to my skeptical nature (and practical experience), the explanation by which the design is more important, that the quality of parts is secondary and the general atmosphere of taboo over such questions- is way to convenient. Of course manufacturers would like everyone not to venture to deeply into their products and have everyone believe in their "magic". I don't buy this (pun intended...)