So, does the Wavelet have home theater bypass?
Speaker Recommendation: 20K range
I’m looking for new speakers in the <20K range.
I am not looking for used, unless it’s a demo model straight from an AD.
I am hoping to find a line that clearly beats speakers in the ~10K range like Magico A3, Revel 228BE, Legacy Focus SE etc.
I will be pairing the speakers with a Lumin D2 streamer, Mcintosh C2600 pre and MC452 amp. Changing those components is not going to happen anytime soon and so system synergy with those pieces is important.
I also would like the speakers to be rated at 500W given the amp I will be using and the fact that the listening space is quite large.
While I mostly listen to jazz, rock, pop, classical and vocals, I am really looking for speakers that sound amazing with any genre. I also need them to sound great at moderate levels of volume.
I currently have Focal Kanta No 2s, and while they are quite nice, I want something much better in all respects.
I am not really up to speed on all the audiophile terms that describe the various traits of sound – I just want my jaw to drop when listening to the speakers with any genre at all volume levels, if that’s possible :)
I am close to NYC and would like to narrow down the list to ~5 candidates before I start auditioning.
Hopefully you guys can help me compile a list!
Thanks in advance for your time and suggestions.
100 responses Add your response
Revel PerformaBe have the best waveguide by far, and will sound the largest in soundscape and lead in clarity in terms of vocals. I don’t find the bass or highs with it necessarily the most resolving, and part of the trade-off of that ultra-wide dispersion is the vocals will sound a tinge honky, but the F228Bes have the most vocal intelligibility of any speaker I’ve heard, in fact it blows away the Salon 2s in this aspect which sound much darker/narrower staging in comparison. I would say if you would be willing to look at mail order brands, I think Salk Soundscape 8 or the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Diamond Tower (w/ Seas T29D001 tweeter) would beat any of the speakers on your list (and both can be had for under 10k), but if you are looking purely at retail brands, I believe the Revels will win purely on the strength of their vocal performance, what they do well they are unmatched at. |
As a suggestion, you may also want to consider some room acoustic treatment and see if that helps with some of your current issues. You seem to have a lot of reflective surfaces in your room particularly in areas where you need diffusion and/or absorption. As an experiment, cover some of those surfaces with thick blankets and see if that makes a difference. It would be a shame to make a such a large investment and only get an incremental improvement. |
Chandybe the more you share about your preferences the more I think you should take a look at the Daedalus Apollo 11s. If looks matter and you like real wood sculpted and finished by the hands of a true artisan then these could be the ticket. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder but many of the speakers that have been recommended here are decidedly unattractive. For example, as much as I love the sound of the Harbeth M40s, they are always going to look like big boxes sitting on metal stands. Lou's speakers have the appearance of fine furniture--you will find yourself stroking the finish and admiring the joinery work. And he has such a wide range of renewable hardwoods and inlay patterns that yours will be one of a kind expressions of your own design aesthetic. All that said, the quest for speakers is such a personal one that if you are going to spend that kind of money you should really hear as many pairs as you are able, ideally with similar partnering equipment and listening environment. I wish you well as you sort through the options. Having done this myself a number of years ago, I would really encourage you to listen with your heart rather than your head. You will know the one when you hear it because the music will move you emotionally, not because what you are hearing is checking off a list of boxes that are in your head. Have fun! |
Chandybe, thanks for the additional information. I totally understand preferring to go with a mainstream brand. High power handling in and of itself will not insure "zero chance" of speaker damage if you clip your 500 watt amp. Clipping sends a burst of maximum-power high frequency energy to the tweeter. At some point in time - and it may be milliseconds - the heat has built up so much faster than the tiny tweeter can dissipate that something overheats and fails. Also, damage from overheating is cumulative, even if the drivers don’t fail the first time you clip. The old adage "that which does not kill you makes you stronger" does not apply to speakers. In addition to power meters and restraint, higher efficiency can help a lot. For each 3 dB increase in efficiency, you cut in half the amount of power needed to reach a given SPL. The tradeoff is, for each 3 dB increase in efficiency, you double the box size needed to maintain the same bass extension. This is a problem if you don’t want big speakers. The solution is to hand off the low end to a low-efficiency (and therefore compact) but high-powered low-bass section. This can either be built into the main speakers (as with the Legacy Aeris), or done with external powered subwoofers. A separately-powered low bass section is the sort of approach I’d suggest for your situation. Best of luck in your quest! Duke |
@ chandybe Check with the Legacy people as to how it could be made to work. Also, I spoke with them in April, and they said they can build a passive version of the Aeris that would be easier to use in a multi-channel system. With a passive version, you could just hook it up. I assume it could still have the powered bass section. |
Well, I will say, that is the size room the Aeris is meant for, i.e., big. Also, with the Aeris’ powered woofer sections, you wouldn’t be needing massive power for the mids/highs either, and your current amp situation should be fine. The Aeris setup at RMAF last weekend sounded fantastic. That said, the Aeris works best for a two-channel music system, and is not as easily incorporated into a multi-channel setup because of the Wavelet room correction technology. Are you running two-channel, or multi-channel? |
I see Focal released the Kanta 3 with larger drivers than the Kanta 2. They might be a more encouraging pop/rock speaker. If you ever get a chance to hear the Acoustic Zen Crescendo 2’s... I think you may be mightily impressed...they do many things right with almost no shortcomings [nothing’s perfect in speakerdom]. I own them and still shake my head in disbelief as to what they bring to the altar of impressive transducers today... 8) |
Here’s a pic of my system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7383 Yes I know I have a lot of (crappy old non audiophile) speakers - have kept them for mostly sentimental reasons until this point - plus I’m too damn lazy to ply the trade route. Now that I’m getting serious with the audiophile journey, I will be cleaning this up when the new speakers arrive. And go easy on me with the room acoustics comments :) PS: And this is why the WAF is moot - this is my mancave, the only fiefdom in the kingdom where I reign supreme |
Hey Guys – thanks for all the advice and recommendations so far – getting some really good opinions here. A few things I left out of the original post in terms of criteria etc: - I forgot to mention that looks are a factor for me. Not so much the WAF as much as the fact that I like sexy speakers that do not look like hideous behemoths. I’d also prefer that they not weigh a ton since I’d like to be able to unpack and move them with the help of just one other able-bodied individual. Now the last point is somewhat discretionary – for amazing sound I’d do sexy looking monstrosities since the logistical PIA events are really just a 1time or few time phenomenon, but again I hope to avoid buying elephantine speakers - Listening area is approx 750sq ft - and the listening position will be around 15ft from the speakers - I understand the point of diminishing returns in this game – I know I won’t get twice the improvement by upgrading from the Kanta’s – but what I do want is easily discernible improvement across the board if possible. I also understand that my current electronics may be somewhat limiting but I am hoping that’s not the case. I do intend to upgrade the amp/pre/streamer etc. down the road and so getting a pair of speakers that may somewhat outclass the other parts for now may actually be prudent - Just wanted to clarify the 500W criterion a bit – I think I get the relationship between speaker sensitivity and power/sound levels - the only reason I mentioned 500W is that I want to take zero chances that I may damage the speakers with unanticipated/occasional peaks and/or when I amp up the wattage on the very infrequent occasions when I pump up the volume somewhat - like when I’m enjoying a fine bottle or 2 of wine and 90db’s sounds more like 80db’s :) I do most of my listening at around 80-85db; at that level my C2600’s volume output is set to between 50-55% - at some points during listening/peaks, I can see the 452’s watt meters spike to near the 450w mark – I want to take on zero risk that my speakers will be damaged during those episodes. I’m thinking that 400-500W rated speakers should suffice given that the ratings are often conservative. - In terms of what I like/dislike about the Kanta’s – they sound amazing to me only with jazz and some vocals – they do not sound that great with rock/pop and other genres – I can’t give you an audiophile level or technical explanation as to why – they just aren’t that impressive sounding. Also, the bass can at times sound like popping sounds with some songs – that happens very infrequently but when it does, it annoys the hell out of me. That being said, there are some songs/albums that blow me away – for example, Brothers in Arms by Club for Five, Leonard Cohen’s album You Want It Darker, and most jazz especially saxophone centric jazz. I want to be blown away by the vast majority of what I may listen to, irrespective of genre. I want all the usual things most folks look for – very good sound at moderate SPLs, very high levels of detail/resolution, high clarity of mid-range, great bass (I’d prefer not to have to employ sub-woofers just yet), great timbre, a wide and deep sound stage, great imaging etc. - At this point in my audio journey, I’m looking for mainstream brands via an AD – not to take anything away from the niche/boutique brands – I am sure there is amazing sound to be had but I am just not ready for that step yet – perhaps in the future if/when I tire of the stalwart brands and need to find out what’s on the other side - I am going to check out both Audio Connection in Verona NJ as well as the AudioDoctor in Jersey City (I used to live there but am now in Morris county close to the Audio Connection). I also work in NYC and may check out some stores I bought B&W 600 series speakers from back in the early 2000's – Lyric HiFi, Innovative AV, Stereo Exchange etc. (if they’re still around). Hopefully some of those auditions will be possible with the pre and amp that I have. - Some prelim candidates I’d like to check out based on the recommendations I’ve heard – Focal Sopra 3s / Scala Utopia v2, Paradigm Persona 7F, Dali Epicon 8, Legacy Aeris, Harbeth 40.2, B&W 803 D3 Thanks again for all the advice and keep it coming please – A’gon rocks beyond measure or description. |
Check out EgglestonWorks. They have a nice line of speakers and informative website. Don’t think anyone here mentioned them. You usually do not hear alot about them but they are worldwide, based in Memphis, TN. I bought the Fontaine Signatures and they are perfect for my room and all-tube based system. Excellent customer service as they made me a new set of grilles at their factory for speakers I bought used. |
@tomic601, good observation! With a small direct-selling company, in effect the manufacturer becomes the dealer. But I think having a local dealer would usually be preferable, all else being equal. Most of my work is in prosound. Agreed that 500 watts is a lot, easily enough to cook most home audio speakers (and most ears) of one is not careful. Like Peter Parker's uncle Ben said, with great power comes great responsibility. Headroom is a nice thing to have, a luxury seldom enjoyed in abundance in prosound, at least not in small to medium venues. Seems like most musicians want just enough amp & speaker to get by, because they'd much rather put their money into instruments and effects. I guess 500 unclipped watts doesn't intimidate me all that much. I'd have to beef up some of my crossover parts, but my drivers can handle it. I use similar drivers in prosound cabs that get pounded by 500 watt amps two or three nights a week. Duke |
Dave and Troy raise some interesting questions: 1: Is the size and look of the loudspeakers important? Few small speakers can fill a big room at high SPLs without significant thermal and/or mechanical compression. Briefly, having a fair amount of speaker headroom above the loudest anticipated peaks helps to keep those peaks uncompressed. Uncompressed peaks = better dynamic contrast = more emotion from the music, because musicians use dynamic contrast to convey emotion. I like to shoot for 10 dB of speaker headroom above the loudest anticipated peaks.
It's probably not worthwhile buying a plane ticket to audition a $1000 speaker. However it might be worthwhile buying a ticket to audition a $10,000+ speaker IF it seems to meet your criteria exceptionally well and the only real question left is how it sounds. I used to sell fairly expensive speakers (Sound Labs) and most of my customers bought a plane ticket to audition them.
I disagree with the implication here that small manufacturers do not offer customer service every bit as attentive as the big boys (and maybe ever moreso sometimes), though I will admit that our delivery times are usually longer. But there is one thing a big company with a dealer network CAN offer you that us little guys usually cannot - the DEALER! If you find a dealer who takes good care of you and who sells a speaker that meets your criteria and makes the magic happen for you, then by all means offer him your business! And if not, well, you still have options. Duke dealer/manufacturer/on both sides of the fence |
Well even with moderately efficient speakers your amp is more than capable of damaging what’s left of your hearing no need to change your amp just your power handling expectations.... many of the pro sound setup I hauled around the country ( when I was young and invincible but stupid ) would melt under that amp... i am going to stay away from recommend of a secofic brand or three.. at this price level expert setup and a relationship with dealer is essential. my short list would include Audio Connection in Verona and make a trip down DC way... |
The other missing information is how big is the room, how far away you are sitting and how loud you want to play is it occasionally loud or loud much of the time Most high end loudspeakers are not designed to handle massive amounts of power without blowing up. The Legacy Aeris and Focus models can handle that kind of power and can easily fill a large room. The Paradigm Persona 7F can handle that kind of power as we already had a client pass that kind of power. The Kef Blades can handle that kind of power although we did have a set of Ref 5 that got the uni-q damaged with 1,000 watts into a 4 ohm load. So with all of these issues you have a few questions to ask yourself: 1: Is the size and look of the loudspeakers important? 2: Are you willing to look at fringe brands you can not easily demo? 3: Are you the type of person who would prefer getting the sevice and support of a larger manufacturer vs dealing with some of the issues with smaller companies? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Op Our shop Audio Doctor in NJ has four reference speakers lines in that price range for you to audition. We have the Legacy line on display and the Legacys are an unbelievable buy for the amount of loudspeaker you can get for the money they excell at deep bass, have a warm midrange, good detail and create a very large soundstage. We have both the Aeris and the Focus lines on display. The Paradigm Personas which offer stnning clarity and a very holographic image, they rate very high on the waf factor and would sound fantastic with the Mcintosh gear which tends to sound a bit on the warm side in tems of clarity and imaging they will beat many much more expensive loudseakers. We also have the entire Kef Reference line we just setup a set of Ref 5 in California and they did so many things right and again they would pair very well with warmer electronics. The Kef's are very attractive, throw a huge soundstage, have very good bass and an excellent midrange. We also have the Dali line which are also extremely musical and we have a demo pair of the $20k Epicon 8 for $12k which is a fantastic dealer for a $20k reference loudspeaker. Our shop is located just 15 mins from NYC and our selection of components is largger then any of the NY or NJ dealers. We have over 60 lines of equipment on display. We would welcome you in for a visit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4 This is a 3 year old video before we added: Mytek, T+A audio, Legacy, ATC, Naim reference, Light Harmonic, Micromega, Anthem STR Quad, Rethem howerver, you can get a nice feel for the shop. Sincerely, Dave Lalin, Owner, Audio Doctor |
@steve59 Sorry, but no, going off the Stereophile measurements, Vienna Acoustics are terrible for the money, way overpriced, just look at his listening window measurement for their Klimt the Kiss speaker, utterly atrocious, not even $100 speakers are as poorly tonanly balanced as those, and it’s directivty is super poor as well. |
I scrolled all the way to the bottom without reading any previous posts,yet. You do understand the rule of diminishing returns in hifi right? $20k isn't going to get you twice as much quality as the a3, persona 3, kanta 2, F2289be. I like that focal lists the size room their specific speakers will sound best in and would like to see more manufacturers do it. Most companies have their house sound and each line will offer more transparency while the speakers in each line will suit different rooms. Often i've found brands who's statement line was also the least musical, like all that accuracy sucked the life out of them. Demo all the brands you can and if possible with your own gear( I usually wait til my list is down to 2 or 3) and when you hear the speaker that makes you want to drop everything and buy it stop and listen to several in the line regardless of price, tell the dealer the size room and gear the speakers are going in... Just Kidding find a pair of Vienna Acoustics 'The Music' make the best deal you can and go home happy you have the greatest speakers in the world. |
Lots of competent speakers at that price point but if you want to push the needle to exceptional then I agree with Duke--check out some of the "little guys" who sell direct. I would strongly second the recommended Daedalus Apollo 11s. I heard them in Ferndale last year and they took my breath away. Certainly a big, bold, organic sound that will fill your room with gorgeous music. I've got the little brother (Apollo's) on order and should have them next month. I'm just outside NYC and on the NJ Transit line. If your still looking then, and the Daedalus are on your short list, and want to get a good idea of what the Daedalus sound is all about, send me a PM and I'd be happy to have you over for a listen. Good luck with your search! |
First, asking to handle 500W is an almost meaningless request, as a 100dB speaker would need 5W to get as loud as an 80dB speaker with 500W. Most all music is mastered with 3-6dB of headroom above their peaks, meaning their peaks should register somewhere around 99-102dB in your listening position (almost nobody listens even close to this loud normally though); if you sit 4 meters away, an 85dB speaker would need around 155W to reach 102dB peaks. For all the speakers I’ll list, I’ll also state their max peaks (per speaker, +3dB if the sound is coming from both) if sitting 4 meters away (+3dB to +4dB if sitting 2 meters away).
Don’t forget about room treatment, it can add serious improvements. |
Recommendations are merely subjective opinions, and likely have no material relevance to your situation. Given your price range and your location, you have the opportunity to audition many speakers and, maybe even get a home trial in your room with your system. Trust your ears. That’s what I think you should do. |
Last month I wrote a review of 15 different high-end speakers, most in this price bracket. Here's the link (toward the bottom of the comments I state the price of each): https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-brief-review-of-15-high-end-speakers-on-home-demo-including... (my favourite was the Boenicke W13, which is around $20k) |
Speaker choices are first dependable on electronics if you like lowpowerSET Tube amps , for their strong points ,Tube or SS preamp. it will be totally different then a 200 WPC. SS amplifier . having run a audio store for a number of years these are just one if the things needed to know as well as room size , what is the Bass outputlowesr octave needed? If you want to get it right everything including cable type needs to be factored in . you should be able to get a very good $25k speaker for $20k or less for sure. |
Okay guys, before anyone puts forth more speaker recommendations, let's look at his electronics. First, the Focal speakers are one of the fastest responding speakers out there. Hence, they can sound bright and thin unless you have a very warm/thick or laid back electronics. The McIntosh electronics are probably a very good pairing with the Focal because they definitely have a more laid back sound and don't push hard on the high frequencies either. So, if you choose another speaker, odds are that they are going to be even less exciting than the Focals. It depends on what your after. ---- With the McIntosh preamp AND the McIntosh MC452, you might actually be at the very limit of what this combination can do. If you wanted to keep working with your components without starting from scratch, one idea that I would put forth is to see if you can have somebody bring a Pass Labs "XA" full Class A amplifier into your system and see how it sounds. I think the Pass "XA" amp would have much better resolution and excitement than the McIntosh MC452, but still have enough thickness and "controlled dynamics" to prevent the Focal speaker from getting out of control. ----- If you really wanted to choose another speaker, the only one that comes to mind is to look at Wilson Audio. They are extremely high resolution and transparent. But in the end, you might still be fighting the "laid back" sound of the McIntosh electronics. Nothing bad about McIntosh, but it does have its own sonic signature. Legacy Focus might also be good with the fast ribbon tweeters, but again, it really depends what you're looking for. |
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...but would consider it the highest compliment if someone said my speakers were "almost as good as the SoundLabs" rather than "better" than pretty much anything else. Hey Duke, at one point long ago here I actually said your Jazz Modules were better than a set of SoundLabs that I heard. Being the gracious and humble person that you are your reply was one of appreciation but giving the ultimate kudos to the SoundLabs. Personally though I never took a liking to SoundLabs, especially in comparison to Quad ESL 57 and Roger Modjeski's ESLs. On the ESL front, given the price range and the amp being used by the OP, the Sanders ESLs might be worth a listen. If you can live with the tight sweet spot they are quite amazing speakers. |
Hi chandybe, The SoundLabs mentioned by Kalali are magnificent. I say that as a longtime owner and dealer. Currently I’m currently neither, but would consider it the highest compliment if someone said my speakers were "almost as good as the SoundLabs" rather than "better" than pretty much anything else. Given that you are "hoping to find a line that clearly beats [very good] speakers in the ~10K range" and that "the listening space is quite large"... You might consider straying from the beaten path and investigating small manufacturers who sell direct. Some of us little guys are pretty competent and bring a fair amount of innovation to the table. And without dealer markup, we usually offer pretty good value. Gedlee, Daedalus, and Volti come to mind. The downside is, more travel to get an audition. Note that power handling is only one part of the equation when it comes to filling a large room. Efficiency also comes into play. What an 87 dB (that’s about average) speaker can do with 500 watts, a 97 dB speaker can do with 50 watts - but in the latter scenario, speaker and amp will be not be stressed. (This is a bit of an oversimplification but the trend described is correct). "I just want my jaw to drop when listening to the speakers with any genre at all volume levels, if that’s possible :) " Given a good recording and a good room and good system matching, and not being too literal about "ALL volume levels", imo that’s possible. (There will always be a volume level at which something becomes the limiting factor.) Duke dealer/manufacturer/one of the little guys |
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis952a1-evolution-acoustics-mm-2-speakers-mint-customer-trade-in-... If I were you, I would consider the above linked item. After reading through many reviews, this one may satisfy your need. I myself had been happy with my speaker Lansch 5.1 which I purchased around 50K 11 years ago. The overall balance is good and pristine treble out of plasma tweeters. But it is difficult to get even used one of my speaker. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis953i3-lansche-audio-no-3-floorstanding-speaker-like-new-full-ra... This model is smaller one than mine and your need separate subwoofer to get a slam. |
Well, if you like the Focal sound, there is the Sopra N3. If you like Legacy Audio, there is the Aeris. The Revel Ultima II Salon are also about that price new, but a lot of them are showing up around $11k used. The problem is, there are seemingly hundreds of speakers in that price range--Monitor Audio, B&W, Sonus Faber, Paradigm Persona, Marten, Dynaudio, just to name a few. |
Being close to NYC, I suggest you take the time and check the local stores and listen to as many speakers as you can. You may also want to focus on what aspect of your listening experience you'd like to improve, e.g., tonality, timber, accuracy, soundstaging, etc., since most speakers tend to do some things better than others. Last but not least, certain speakers tend to do a better job reproducing smaller bands with lesser number of instruments and vocals vs. some others which seem to do better with large orchestral presentations. All that been said, if I were looking for speakers in that price range, I'd expect them to do very well regardless of the musical content. If you have the room, see if Sound Lab speakers offer you what you're looking for. I've heard them paired with McIntosh MC601s and C2600 in a large room and they sounded exceptional. |
