I am not looking for used,
unless it’s a demo model straight from an AD.
I am hoping to find a line
that clearly beats speakers in the ~10K range like Magico A3, Revel 228BE,
Legacy Focus SE etc.
I will be pairing the
speakers with a Lumin D2 streamer, Mcintosh C2600 pre and MC452 amp. Changing
those components is not going to happen anytime soon and so system synergy with
those pieces is important.
I also would like the
speakers to be rated at 500W given the amp I will be using and the fact that
the listening space is quite large.
While I mostly listen to jazz,
rock, pop, classical and vocals, I am really looking for speakers that sound amazing
with any genre. I also need them to sound great at moderate levels of volume.
I currently have Focal Kanta No
2s, and while they are quite nice, I want something much better in all
respects.
I am not really up to speed
on all the audiophile terms that describe the various traits of sound – I just
want my jaw to drop when listening to the speakers with any genre at all volume
levels, if that’s possible :)
I am close to NYC and would
like to narrow down the list to ~5 candidates before I start auditioning.
Revel PerformaBe have the best waveguide by far, and will sound the largest in soundscape and lead in clarity in terms of vocals. I don’t find the bass or highs with it necessarily the most resolving, and part of the trade-off of that ultra-wide dispersion is the vocals will sound a tinge honky, but the F228Bes have the most vocal intelligibility of any speaker I’ve heard, in fact it blows away the Salon 2s in this aspect which sound much darker/narrower staging in comparison.
That right there just told me everything I need to know about individual perception. I couldn't disagree more and I heard both in the same room, same gear. I got the Kanta 3's home and I think they have the same strengths and weaknesses as the K2's I returned them. The persona 7f is on sale currently and there's a pair of Usher BE-10 DMD's that you may like.
The persona 9h for $20k if it could be done could be the solution. 1400 watts with 4 bass drivers have me salivating... Don’t they have ARC built in? I would jump on it. I can't let a white coat lab rat tell me what I like better because a tweeter does or doesn't have a waveguide there's so much more to the final design and in my room wide dispersion speakers soundstage like crap, everything else being equal if a flat response was all it took as cheap as digital processing is these days all speakers would sound the same. I sold my salon 2's to a gent that's driving them with a pair of mc 601's and he says they put them into protection! The 9h would rock with my puny little integrated.
Out of interest which speakers do McIntosh usually demonstrate at shows with? On another note you are a lucky man - what a fabulous choice you have: Nola's Marten's YG Magico
List goes on - have you got a good local dealer who will be willing to facilitate a home demo?
Internet direct does not mean you get the entire middle man markup taken off. It means the manufacturer just takes it all.
I have liked the emerald speakers I’ve heard though.
At 20k I’d be looking at the Persona 7F with the trade in promo going on right now (20% off). Or try to get a dealer to do the 9H for 20k after discounts. Might be possible.
I love my ~ $2500 KCIIs (wireworld and Clarity Cap upgrades) but these
The EP2.8 and EP4.8 are the same with the addition of one woofer in the EP2.8. Both the 2.4 and 2.8 use the same two Emerald Physics 15" Carbon Fiber woofers. The EP2.4 uses a paper cone 12" midrange with our new upgraded Poly compression tweeter. The EP2.8 steps up to our 12" Carbon Fiber midrange along with our top of the line Neo tweeter. The 2.8 also gets a step up crossover and is wired with Wireworld OCC cable. Both models extend to 35Hz with no equalization and 20Hz by adding our BOM or one of the two DSP crossover/equalizers. Both models can be run from a single amp and come with a full range crossover. They can also be biamped or triamped for even improved sonics. Two series speakers compete with speakers selling for up to $30k and offer amazing sonics combined with fabulous dynamics and a "you are there" live sound rarely found in speakers at close to their Internet Direct prices.
Hey Chandybe- did you audition speakers at any of the dealers you were planning to see? I ask because I live in the same area as you and am curious about the dealer experience. I too am in the market for speakers new or used around $20k.
buyers remorse? you buy a pair of $18,500 speakers and then ask for suggestions. sounds like. personally if I can't get expensive gear to try in my own home first i'm not buying it period We stand to lose $10k if the glorious speakers fall flat at home, dealers going to say 'they need to break in' then sell us thousands worth of amps and cables and room treatments to make them sound right, no thank you fool me once shame on you. If you're interested in something buy it used if you really like it keep it or resell it and buy it new then. Maybe I just work to hard for my money ,idk
For well less than $20K you can get a pair of Dynauio Confidence C4 Platinum. These just wen out of production to make room for the next generation Confidence just introduced. You can get great deals on new or demo pairs while they last (not long). I just got a brand new pair of Confidence C2 Platinum about three weeks ago for a substantial discount.
IMO, Speaker must be connected direct /without crossovers, that changes and press the sound/ to the output of amplifier. Better use good 8 inch fullrange with sensitivity more 92-94 dB for 50-14000 Hz. And You can add for bass 10-12 inch speaker for 30-50 Hz, connected cross 2000 uF for deviding both speakers. For 20000 Hz You can add 2-3 inch tweeter. You can use 2 boxes per channel with good vision This combination will cost You no more 2K $ and will sound much better more expensive towers. I have the same and Im very happy.
Bassdude2: Well placed! I owned them for 2 years first with Xilica and most of the time with Wavelet before they had to go. I still miss them literally daily and think they are one of the best out there at any price point. Literally nothing they won't play at A+ levels with polish and authority. Bill D. and the team put everything they have into the entire line up and down the (price & size) scale,...you cannot go wrong with Aeris, Focus SE or XD, Whisper XDS, etc....
Have to get Legacy back in the room soon,...something custom is in the works, let's see what's going to happen!
I have to agree with above that you'll find quite often speakers will sound more like the room they're in than different. I also, for fun pulled the $22k speakers out and put the 1/3 size 1/5 price beethovens in with my h360 driving them and I was amazed at how much the little ones sounded like the big guys, sans dynamics and hyper resolutionv they sounded like they could have come from the same manufacturer. Made me wonder too. The listening room matters!
Sorry, but no, going off the Stereophile measurements, Vienna Acoustics are terrible for the money, way overpriced, just look at his listening window measurement for their Klimt the Kiss speaker, utterly atrocious, not even $100 speakers are as poorly tonanly balanced as those, and it’s directivty is super poor as well.
I have a pair of Revel salon2's I bought to replace my VA Beethovens which like your Kanta's didn't really rock out, but despite measurements the speakers from Vienna Acoustics sound amazing next to anything in their price. Your Kanta2's image really well and when you go to a larger speaker you risk losing that. Axpona had a lot of big speakers in small rooms and the carver line source sounded great also Raidho 2.1(used)would be worth an in home demo and is on my short list along with the VA 'the music' if I tire of the Salon2's.
OP, your experiment of "lesser" speakers sounding as good as "better" speakers underscores my earlier recommendation of addressing the room acoustics before making the investment in getting even "better" speakers. You have lots of reflective surfaces in that room and they are robbing you from getting full potential from your speakers.
Well I demo’ed the Magico A3 and the Focal Sopra’s 3 this last Saturday. They were connected to Ayre equipment. Both types of speakers sounded excellent with each having a different presentation. I kinda liked the Sopra’s 3’s a little better. But they are twice the price of the Magico A3.
Since I own 4 JL Audio Fathom F-113 subs, I’m thinking the Focal Sopra 2’s would suffice nicely. Unfortunately, the dealer didn’t have them to demo.
But, the true test will be when I bring my Carver Tube amps to play with them. The speakers compatibility with the amps might swing the decision.
Some products I have in my store that are an amazing deal.1. Vandersteen 5A Carbon in Birds Eye Maple at $19K2. Wilson Audio Specialties Yvettes at $19,5003. Audio Physic Aventara ++ with AudioQuest WEL Signature cabling inside. $11995.004. Vivid Audio Kaya 90 $26000.00sunnyaudiovideo.com
Tannoy Prestige series with 15" dual-concentric or 12" DC.
Buy the best Tannoys you can find on the used market. These are the best speakers in the world. They are SET-friendly, and can found in the homes of many hi-fi industry insiders. They are insanely good. Non-concentric drivers always exhibit lobing, which will never completely satisfy the discriminating ear... with the possible exception of the big Vandersteens (which are power-hungry) and Maggies (which are fragile and lacking in the bass)
Very nice gear that you own. I would be interested in reading about your impressions, thoughts on the Bryston 4B-SST2 vs. 4B3. Then, the Bryston 4B3 vs. Mark Levinson No. 533H for comparison.
I have a quite a few amps and 11 speakers - 2 bryston 4bsst2’s, a bryston 4b3, an ML 533H and the MC452 for amps, and various B&W and ML speakers - b/c I am running an 11.2 multichannel HT system via an Anthem AVM60, in addition to 2 channel for music. To date I have not compared any of my other speakers to the Kantas, but that just changed..
So my ML 533H normally drives a pair of B&W CM 10S2s and a CMC2 center - yesterday I altered the hookup a bit and I now have the CM10 S2 speakers also connected to my C2600 preamp, by connecting the C2600 to the ML533H. I hooked things up this way just in case I wanted to listen to music using 4 instead of 2 speakers.
Today I listened to music from my Lumin/C2600 and both the MC452 and ML533H - so out of 4 speakers - the Kantas and CM10S2s.
I did a test - I powered off the MC452 and just listened to the CM10 S2’s out of the Lumin/C2600.
And I was hard pressed to find a significant difference between the Kantas and CM10 S2s. The only difference is that the Kantas are more sensitive and so sound louder than the CM10 S2s at a set C2600 volume level. But when I disabled the Kantas, and pumped up the volume, the CM10s sounded virtually as good as the Kantas. I doubt this is because the ML533H is better than the MC452, I think the speakers are just in the same league. Which is a massive disappointment.
Now I need to do more listening, and listening not under the influence since I am enjoying NFL sunday and drinking copious amounts of fine wine , but I think I might have stumbled onto an unexpected finding here..the Kantas at >2x the price of the B&Ws, may not be much better, if they are better at all..than the CM10 S2’s..
Oh boy..this just changed everything..I need to tread very carefully before forking over a lot of money for a new pair of speakers..I cant buy something that isnt unequivocally and indisputably better than what I have..I think this just reiterates the need for a home audition..
More to come after I do additional tests in better controlled and less intoxicated conditions..hope this is just an artifact of ethanol..but Im not so sure..I plan to compare various permutations of amp/speaker combos to confirm these initial findings..
I want something clearly better than the Kantas, but unless I do home auditions or listening at showrooms under like conditions with the same electronics, I may just end up spending 2x what I spent for the Kanta's for nothing or for negligible gain..
I like the Sanders and the Tekton speakers sonically; however, they are directional and not appealing for an off axis, wide listening experience. I had to get rid of my Martin Logan Monolith IIIs because my wife used to listen with me and that was not pleasant for one of us (the one not in the center). So, with they being said, yes electrostatic speakers with big amps work well.
Been reading this thread for a while (and other threads). I am a complete Noob in these matters but based on the amp @chandybe is using and the relatively high damping factor of 40, matching speakers for the
MC452 would need to follow certain electrical requirements and not only sensitivity and impedance will determine which speakers will sound better but also considering amplifier feedback, speaker frequency response etc. maybe in general terms high impedance speakers 8 ohms plus may not be a good match for it. More experienced people feel free to comment, like I said I am just learning a bit about all this
Tuff decision. I also want to upgrade from Aerial 10T’s I’ve had for 18 yrs. I live in Florida now but I’m from NYC originally and going back to visit family on 10/31/18. I’ll be there for the audio show 11/9-11/18 although the show doesn’t look so good. Here’s something to think about: After listening to Andrew Jones speak about speaker design, I’ve decided to consider an active speaker because they avoid the shortcomings introduced by cross over networks.
Monitor Audio has the PL II series. The 200 and 300 are in your price range. I have the 100s, which are stand mount. They are fab. The 200 and 300 have been very well reviewed. My experience with Monitor speakers has been great...
I own a set of Sopra 2’s and they sound excellent. My system is all tube gear, but I have heard them with the Mcintosh components you have. In smaller rooms, the Focal’s can sound a little bright, as do B&W, but a larger room should help. Room treatments did wonders for my system, so I recommend, as others have, that you give some thought to them.
I have also auditioned some some of the speakers you are considering. Sopra will Sound much better than Kanta in every way. They are really in different leagues. Given your budget, Sopra 3 is a better choice than 2. They are the same drives for tweeter and midrange, but the 3’s have more body in the lower octaves. B&W, in my opinion Sound a little thin until you get power running through them. Once the volume goes up, they will open up and sound really nice.
Dali and Dynaudio speakers will be a totally different sound than Focal or B&W. They are much more laid back. Given that your electronics are a little laid back, I would caution that you may swing to far in the other direction if you aren’t careful. Definitely audition them if you can, but I would spend significant time with them before making the purchase to ensure you will be happy 6 months later.
bassdude2I have been eyeballing those Legacy speakers for awhile now. If I had the cash of the OP, I would be auditioning a couple in the Legacy lineup. They seem to have really tightened up their build quality in the past deacde, a local dealer used to carry them when the build quality was poor and stopped carrying them. I like the Legacy, the Vandersteen and a few by Volti Audio, like these http://voltiaudio.com/vittora/. The Vittora comes with an ultra low frequency bass driver that would really push in those low frequencies. Not to mention the extreme beauty of the wood cabinet finish- they look very retro-cool. OP... BTW the Volti is right at your price point....https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/02/17/hello-goodbye-six-weeks-with-the-volti-audio-vittora/
Thanks for your post and congrats on what will undoubtedly be a wonderful, exhausting and 'enlightened' journey! You certainly should have high expectations, given your budget and I applaud your 'courage' to put this request out there with as many opinions as you will find responses. That's not to say you will not benefit from the various degrees of opinions; only that no one will know as much as you when you finally confront the experience of that one, almost unexplainable moment when your next speaker finds YOU and takes you home...and that should happen AT home!
I think every serious consideration HAS to be auditioned in your room and that's extremely difficult unless you are prepared to spend a great deal of time AND can find dealers (you will not likely find one with everything you should consider) that are willing to allow their speakers out of their hands, even with a significant deposit.
Your concerns about compatibility with your electronics is valid, but your room is FAR more important than your gear. You have to get the various models into your space; with your electronics before you should make any commitment. My opinion...
I would add to the list of wonderful speakers already put forth, the remarkable Bowers & Wilkins 802D3 and the Martin-Logan Renaissance 15. Both models are a little over your budget, but the B&W's could likely be bought for $20,000 or in the case of the ML's, a little over $21,000.
They represent very different approaches to sound reproduction, but both have that 'magical' ability to transport you to somewhere else and given your already high standards, based on your current set-up, you probably have to spend what you're prepared to spend to get that 'significant' improvement you are looking for.
You will be surprised how each speaker interacts with your room (for better or worse) and the type of music you enjoy will no doubt play some role in which model you respond to the most. The relationship with your dealer has to be of some importance. With such a significant expenditure, you want to be sure you have their support and ultimately, their respect.
I hope this finds you well and working through these 'interesting times' Have a great time with this; I'm sure once you find your next speaker, it will provide years and years of enjoyment.
Best regards, Jim Gray Jim Gray Designs jimgraydesigns.com 850.509.9473
I just purchased a pair of Focal Sopra 3s which listed at 20k . But you know they will knock off 20+ %. We auditioned them at the RMAF last weekend. I like them very much. And they haven’t even been burnt in. I also purchased a few Naim components to push and play the Focals. I’d give them a listen.
A couple of people have mentioned Salk speakers in this thread. I would just add they are some of the more accurate speakers in the world, they use very high quality drivers with custom designed cross overs and Jim Salk makes some of the most beautiful cabinets in the industry. And you can select the exact finish you want for your speakers. You really should try to at least hear a pair of his SoundScape speakers. The SoundScape 12's are virtually flat from 18 Hz to 40k Hz (+/- 3 db) and you can get just about any customer finish you want and still be under $20k.
I have speakers from his line two below the SoundScape and they are the best speakers I have ever owned.
The classic combo; Mcintosh & B&W There is a magic synergy with that combo. As others have mentioned, the laid back nature of the mac with the highly resolving diamond tweeters is a great combination, and your upgrade path in electronics could be mc601, mc611 or pass as others have suggested. I have mc601 (used to have mc452- in fact I still have the empty box if anyone needs it), & 802D3 and would be happy to let you hear this (in Manhattan).
Interesting that no one has mentioned Martin Logan yet? Perhaps I missed it but a set of 13A's or 15A's with powered woofers built right in give you the best of all possible worlds. High resolution and great bass. They both play load enough and sound great on sax recordings and the other genres you mentioned. I have the 15A's in stock as a demo and a pair at home. I'd put them up against anything under 50K!
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