Oh, heck. The Romans had this all figured out two millenniums ago: "De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est!"
Speaker Cables? why all the hype for expensive speaker wire?
After listening to many speaker cables, I am listening to basic 14 Gauge, high purity copper speaker wire and find myself shaking my head. Does this basic speaker wire sound better than cables many times the price? I am really starting to ponder that question. I think I am hearing things on my records I never heard before and better balance of sound. What are your thoughts?
235 responses Add your response
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@lalitk Good suggestion but do you really think anyone would pony up for this device? i have one, it is a very useful truth-teller... has been quite worth it to me, since i use it fairly often to confirm what i am hearing among changes in cables, dacs, preamps etc etc... excellent for confirmation (or refutation) of my initial listening impressions of new stuff without careful control -- more than a few times it told me what i thought i was hearing was actually not so once volume adjusted and blinded granted once trying to figure something out for myself i am more willing to dig in than the every day hifi nut - i have been at this too long to trust the marketing drivel (or even my own ears at first listen...) @hilde45 Can the ABX comparator be used to compare girlfriends/boyfriends for longtime placement in the rig that is our life? Because $$'s saved on divorces can buy some pretty nice gear. (Seriously: how good a rig could one buy for the cost, overall, of a divorce? I think we're talking some pretty nice gear.) hey, that is what mother in laws are for!!! or actually, as much as i know of frank v a, a lunch or cup o coffee with him in person would be a useful screen! 🧐🧐🧐 |
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Re 3 and 4: I'm sure it's not a question of "adapting" - my Furutech cables sound from absolutely "horrific" to absolutely "magical" over the long months of breakin. It's from "no soundstage" to "deep and wide soundstage", it's from "harsh highs" to "magical highs", it can't be a question of adaptation... |
In my experience: 1. There are systems where cables matter a lot, and some others where the difference is smaller (usually less resolving systems but there must be more to it than that). For example, a friend of mine has nice vintage Tannoy speakers, where not only cables but even source components seem to make little difference ;) 2. I agree some cheaper cables can let you "hear more" but it doesn't mean the sound quality is better. It may be because the bass is weak, you perceive more in the mids or highs. Or sometimes there seems to be less bass but it's better quality and you learn to appreciate it more. 3. It also always amazes me how different the cable breakin experience can be with different people. For example, when I get a new cable with Furutech rhodium plated plugs, it takes months in my system before it sounds beautiful, whereas some other people claim to have the same experience on the first day... 4. Comparing cables can be tricky as even the well brokenin cable may need time to settle after it's disconnected and reconnected... |
Right on, Hilde, MC, Nonoise. We are dealing with abstractions. Abstractions are abstract because they defy concrete explanations. We should welcome and commend the contributions made by the righteous electricians to our understanding of cables, switches, fuses and all the other "snake-oil" we enjoy at sometimes extraordinary prices. Please, will one of them prove empirically that all cables are the same. |
@jjss49 Can the ABX comparator be used to compare girlfriends/boyfriends for longtime placement in the rig that is our life? Because $$'s saved on divorces can buy some pretty nice gear. (Seriously: how good a rig could one buy for the cost, overall, of a divorce? I think we're talking some pretty nice gear.) |
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/04/audio-by-van-alstine-abx-comparator.html i find this unit indispensible in comparing many components and cables, esp. cables very useful to combat confirmation bias and also disparate volume settings when trying to discern differences and preferences |
More Importantly if an opportunity to share in a experience is denied to oneself because ones belief mechanisms and theories reject the idea that something new can be obtained, through participating in the experience. Then that is a situation that is fine the that person. There is no need to spend any time to create a change. If an individual with these inclinations is to enter into a discussion on the outcome of the types of experiences that have been passed over. Where there are the findings of others being shared, by those who have chosen to participate in a particular type of experience. Those who are refusing to undertake or acknowledge any value to the experience, are going to be sharing an information that is deficient in Value. It is quite clear from my own experiences and sharing some of those experiences in the Company of others who are showing a Interest, that a Cable can produce a perception of being attractive and produce an improvement, whilst demonstrated along side another Cable that can be perceived of being less attractive and not able to be perceived as being a Improvement. I am most contented by undertaking in these experiences, they have been the most educational . One alternative can be to refuse to participate and claim the time spent is futile and will lead to falsities being made known. I am quite content to not adopt this attitude any longer, that one is a thing from my past, and creates limitations. |
The experience of hearing a difference between cables is exactly the kind of event which requires scientific experimentation. Saying that an observation, or repeated observations, are "not scientific" does not erase the experience. Indeed, using "scientific" as a *refutation* of experience actually does harm to science; not only does it disregard experience, it abuses the term "scientific" by making it a conversation-stopper. The invention of modern science was made possible by taking experience seriously. Read about it. Before then, people looked to Aristotle and Ptolemy for their science. The world was fixed and scientific facts could be deduced. (Aristotle, probably history’s greatest biologists overall, deduced that women had fewer teeth because they were, by definition, inferior to men. He could have counted, but that would have been relying too much on experience.) Umami was a well defined taste experience for a long time in various cultures. They recognized it, desired it, and even developed recipes to express it. https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2044-7248-4-13 See the analogy? Experience first. Explanation second. If experience contradicts existing metrics and explanations, then the greatest possible effort must be taken to show why or how the experience is erroneous. Science is conservative -- it seeks to preserve theories which work. But once experience proves obstinate to existing theories, theory must find a way to adapt. If you don’t believe that, tell me why the sun is now at the center of our solar system rather than the earth. |
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Great post. The only problem is, if they were to take up your advice and try some cables from The Cable Co., then they'd be exposed to more than they think they know, shattering their preconceptions and come to the realization that some cables do sound much better than others. No matter how much easier you make it for them so it's all upsides and no downsides, they'll just ignore your well reasoned advice (which, sad to say, has been given hundreds of times here) and continue to live in their bubble. It's what they do. It's how they live. But great advice, nonetheless. All the best, Nonoise |
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12:28pmvinyl_rules
Perhaps others have tried and found it is not as easy as you suggest. What is stopping you from undertaking such a simple task? cleeds, You should reread my post. No where did I say this would be “simple” or “easy,” I rather think an undertaking like this would be complex, costly, and time consuming.And were I an interconnect manufacturer already successfully selling expensive cables, why would I bother? Many scientific breakthroughs/innovations come from small start ups headed by independent thinkers who would find no support for their ideas in established companies. |
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Ah!When the master of the Universe Millercarbon stops to critique my comment, I know I am onto something.
"...you have concluded you not only know more than much more experienced
listeners, you know enough to conclude they need therapy. Impressive.
..."Nowhere did I conclude that I know "much more"...but what the hell is an "experienced" listener?Is that someone who has the disposal income to go through an extensive and expensive trial and error evaluation?Is it someone who, like the Corvette driver I alluded to, has bought into all the Corvette marketing and feels bigger and better and smarter and richer and freer and...etc., than the Camry driver.It is copper, that is affected by resistance and inductance and capacitance in ways that may affect the end sound insofar as it may sound better or worse or the same. All of the rest is simply marketing, trying to pry the extra bucks out of an "experienced listener" and stroke his ego. If you want to spend your life and your money arguing to justify what goes into your ears as a result, Hey, this is still pretty much America.But do not hold yourself out as the expert as to what goes into my ears,Mr. Experienced Listener" aka "millercarbon". |
I don’t quite get the deaf audiophile society folks. Do they actually believe that by telling somebody there is no difference in cables, people are somehow going to "unhear" what they heard? (That and the fact that they seem to think that the 1.8 GPA they managed to maintain throughout middle school somehow makes them qualified psychologists and ENTs.) Scientific method states a hypothesis needs be developed to explain an observation. It does not say if you’re too ignorant to develop a suitable hypothesis, the observation is somehow false. There is not a single scientific law or model that says all cables will sound the same. There are thousands of observations over many decades that attest to cables sounding different. While ignorance is clearly a requirement for membership of the deaf audiophile society, it does not prove all cables sound the same. |
If anyone needs scientific proof with cables, do the first step with anything scientific and do some direct observations for yourself. Lots of supposedly scientifically oriented people have gone to great lengths to provide themselves with results that match their beliefs. The internet is littered with them. The naysayers who post here rely on them. It's what trolls do. All the best, Nonoise |
+1 stebut - I agree with you! If there are actual sonic differences between wire it would have been measurable long ago! I blame Noel Lee with his Monster cable for starting this. Before his subjective claims of Monster's superiority everyone used zip cord - and nobody complained! For interconnects it was gray Switchcraft from Radio Shack. Nobody complained! The whole wire business is built upon the unscrupulous preying upon the neurotically obsessed and insecure. |
“To who? Those of us who know have nothing to prove. The onus is not on us to teach, but on you to learn.“ With all due respect, you are the one claiming expensive cables make a difference. I see nothing that scientifically supports your hypothesis, so if you want me to believe your opinions, prove them. Point me to real scientific studies that I can’t seem to find. @cleeds “I provided you the proof you seek - a very thorough, valid, blind scientific study - just yesterday. It proves the difference.” Yes, I read the study in June when it came out. It compares a XLR cable with a RCA cable. That is not quite the type of comparison study I was looking for. |
If a Individual purchased a Branded Speaker Pair of Speakers Cables Five Years ago as a used Cable for $500 Dollar for 2 x 8ft Lengths that originally retailed at $1000. Then after owning the Cable for the Five Year Term sold the Cables for $300 Dollars. The Cable will have cost the Second User $40 Dollars a Year to own the Cable. If a Person was to enter this Thread claiming they had invested $40 a year into their Speaker Cables the statement would not seem to be in keeping with Hyped Expensive Wire, but more closer to a statement about Cheap Wire being Purchased from a Home Depot. If a Cable is creating a Interest to a Individual to try using it. It can investigated for user feedback and see how it performs with a particular Interface. If it still appeals, the Cable cab be sought out to see if there is a option for it to be purchased at a Cost that is heavily reduced from the Retail Value. From my experience not much will be lost on a resale if the Cable is bought prudently and at a later date is sold. In a few cases the Cable has realised a small profit. My other Hobby being photography has much more increased levels of depreciation on purchases, whether Prudent Used Purchases or as a New Purchase. There is a thread of prejudice woven into the fabric that is the HiFi Community stretching across the Globe. Every Forum and Country will have occupants who do not in any measure welcome the idea that Cables are worthy of a High Retail Value. This is most likely because the view is that the Cable does not produce a important role in the System, it is an umbilical that is a necessity to enable the System to Function. Cables which have a High Retail Price are met with the uncomfortable welcome, that is regularly seen expressed. Users who make their use of the High Priced Cables known, are commonly disregarded as Discontented Neurotics, who constantly exchange Devices and Ancillaries with Too Much Disposable Income and are always in search of the next big thing to brag about. My own personal experience with Individuals who are content with the idea of exchanging Cables at Different retail Values does not reflect the above. The Individuals I spend time with are likeminded to myself, and are quite content with their Systems and see no need to exchange a Device or Ancillary to create any further improvements. Their use, as well as my own use of a Cable or Permutations of Cables over a period of time, is to see how the best interface can be created for r much wanted to be retained Devices and Ancillaries. As New Cables are also known to need a time to settle, some choices of a Cable can remain within a Interface for a very long time and commonly remain almost permanently. |
The best test is your ears, if you can. If someone can’t hear a difference, no need to believe it, or wonder, save yourself the $. As MC hinted above, its no members job here to convince otherwise. Go discover. I compared four different low, mid-grade, and higher grade bi-wire speaker cables to the budget builders Home Depot zip cord for fun, even ran it in bi-wire configuration, with and without connector ends. The HD cord is grainy sounding at best, not good in my system. Might be okay for some in lower efficiency speaker systems, if you want to convince yourself its good. The result with the HD zip cord is missing some high and low frequency. A limited design, limited conductor, limited insulation (dielectric), resulting in added NOISE. The opposite of clean, clear, smooth, or even dark sounding cables. If you like this HD zip cord sound, or can’t hear a difference, save your $. Some people like added salt in their ice cream, have at it! We all hear differently. Enjoy! |
@nac722 "The best cables come from pre-1980’s Kirby vacuums. ..,... These things work the best. Better than the $1 a foot stuff and better than the $10,000 cables. " What specific $10,000 cables have you actually compared the Kirby vacuum wire to and what were the specific differences that you heard? Also, for added context ,what equipment - brands/models do you have in your system? |
daleberlin And we should believe all you audiophiles who tell us there is a difference? Until there is a reputable ABX test done between some cables, I think you are all blowing smoke.I provided you the proof you seek - a very thorough, valid, blind scientific study - just yesterday. It proves the difference. It's in this thread here. Happy reading. |
And we should believe all you audiophiles who tell us there is a difference? Until there is a reputable ABX test done between some cables, I think you are all blowing smoke. 3:07 - 5:20 https://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ?t=185 |
vinyl_rules
Perhaps others have tried and found it is not as easy as you suggest. What is stopping you from undertaking such a simple task? |
If I had just 1/100 of a penny for every word ever written about the sound (or not) of a speaker cable or an interconnect cable I would now be the planet’s wealthiest human! 🤑🤑🤑 IMHO, I believe the differences we hear can be explained by the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of a cable. An experiment I’d love to see someone conduct is to measure the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of a highly regarded “good sounding” speaker cable/interconnect cable. Next, I’d construct a speaker cable/interconnect cable using different materials with identical measures of inductance, capacitance, and resistance. There are no other known electrical properties that exist, period! 🤭 Then I’d turn these samples over to the audiophile press to compare against each other. I posit there would be no discernible difference in sound quality between the two cables. I personally believe that there can be audible differences, but I believe this is because an important application of inductors in active circuits is that they tend to block high-frequency signals while letting lower-frequency oscillations pass. Note that this is the opposite function of capacitors. Combining the two components in a cable can selectively filter or generate oscillations of almost any desired frequency. And this effect is what I believe people “hear” when comparing cables. Ergo, I posit I could measure and duplicate the sound of any speaker cable or interconnect currently being marketed as a good sounding wire. I do wonder why no one has done this? 😳😳😳 |
i agree with @decooney but really good cables do not have to be extremely expensive cables let’s not conflate the two expensive cables also aren’t always really good cables, in an absolute sense, or applied to your system the only thing you do know about really expensive cables is that they are really expensive |
If someone only tries low-grade low-cost cables and never compares them hands on to really good cables (in a high end system with great upstream components) you likely will never know what you are missing. Kinda like buying a really nice sports touring car and only driving it in your local neighborhood. What’s the saying..."if i have to explain it you wouldn’t understand". |
So out of the several hundred choices out there you tried a couple of the cheapest worst ones, they were as we all know highly variable in results, and from this meager random sample you have concluded you not only know more than much more experienced listeners, you know enough to conclude they need therapy. Impressive. |
I have used 14g two conductor low voltage (for outside lights) copper wire from Lowes and Home Depot for the last 20 years and have never even thought of upgrading speaker cables. The only changes ever made had been to compensate for length for speaker movement in different rooms and homes.After reading these discussion columns for the last several years, I began to wonder if, 1. more expensive speaker cables can improve my sound, and 2. if more expensive interconnects (than the flimsy red/white freebie type cables) can improve my sound.My very limited experience has been that the more elaborate and expensive speaker cable did nothing that was audible to me, altho' the banana plug "pigtail" that I had made facilitated switching between systems on my pair of speakers.However the interconnects, at first try, practically eliminated/veiled the higher frequencies. The second try was the opposite, in that they were extremely bright. So I went back to the bag full of cheap interconnects that I have accumulated and again am quite happy with my sound.My conclusion is that what your ears tell you is the truth that you want to listen to.In my narrow mind, anyone that pays 3,000 never mind 30,000 for a piece of wire needs therapy. Much like the difference between a Camry and a Corvette, both do the same thing i.e., move you from one place to another.But OMG, doesn't it make you "feel" better in the Corvette? |
I use a Modern Design of Wire that is used in what can be referred to as very expensive Cables. I am not feeling the Wire I own is expensive, to acquire and be used as Speaker Cable and Inter Connect, especially when compared to the retail prices of some Brands of Cables. Where is there a difference between the Wire I am using and the Brands offerings. Mainly in the way the cable is constructed, in some cases it will be a assembly of other Materials and Sheathed. Contained within the Sheath can be a selection of materials to Manage Vibration and RFI. In many cases the Wire will be routed through a Sheath only. The Wire that I am using has been in some cases Cryo or Nano Treated by the producer of a Cable. The other cost that can vary is how the Cables are Terminated. The Cost of a Speaker Cable Connector, RCA Connector or XLR Connector can vary. Types of Solder used can have different Values. The allocation of Man Hours to Produce a Terminated Cable. These can impact on the cost, especially if the Connectors are Branded and the Models being selected with High Purchase Prices. Does a Selection of Base Materials, a Treatment such as Cryo or Nano. and an assembly of the base parts to be contained within a Sheath and the Termination Procedure for the Cable, all add up to a outlay for the Producer that will cost $$$$$'s per metre. The answer is certainly NO! Does Printing a Brands Name on to the Sheath, along with the Cable Model and Directional Arrows, add to the above per metre cost, and now produce a Cable that costs $$$$$'s per metre. The answer is certainly NO! Does the risk of experiencing Low Volumes of Sales, and deciding which level of the Market the Cable will be competing in, along with placing a Value onto the Companies IP, now produce a Cable that costs $$$$$'s per metre. The answer is most certainly, looking likely to be Yes! In relation to Speaker Cables, is my Untreated Modern Design Wire, going to be noticeably bettered, when compared to a Identical Wire, that is being supplied from a Brand, with a Cryo or Nano Treatment and contained within a Sheath with Directional Arrows ? Will the wire with a Purchase Price of $15 per metre, be trounced in a Comparison by the much increased Purchase Price Terminated Cable supplied from a Brand ? The Law of Diminishing returns will certainly be at play. With the way the commodities markets are heading, the Wire at $15 per metre will potentially hold its value, even when sold on as used. The Branded Cable if a New Purchase, will probably lose 20 - 30% of the Value in a very short period of being owned. |
