The essential idea is to use less powerful but preferable amp for mids and highs (much less power needs.
Then use a more powerful amp dedicated for the bass.
The mixture of low powered Tubes combined with a high powered SS amp for Bass fitting this scenario best in my mind, i.e. the only reason I would try it.
This presumes the speakers are full range, not needing a sub which can be self-powered, essentially the same thing.
One thing to keep in mind: a crossover somewhere to First remove the bass frequencies from the low powered amp and thus remove the need to make bass from the tweeters and mid drivers is needed. .................................
Raven says bass is 65% of the power need ’normally’. (they have a built in crossover)
"The Avian MK3 series high-pass feature provides an extraordinary advantage when using a subwoofer. By removing bass frequencies, it frees the power amp from 65% of the load it normally has to bear. This is like tripling the power of the amplifier in terms of its ability to drive speakers. It also frees smaller speakers from reproducing low bass frequencies which reduces speaker distortion. This is all achieved with a gentle 6db per octave slope making it easy to achieve a seamless and musical transition with any good quality subwoofer.
The cable itself should not have any sound characteristics.
When you talk about "cable synergy" in a system, that does not exist.
If I were you I would test 2 pairs - 1 cheap and well built cable, and a more expensive cable for your choice. You should be listening for transparency. Does any octave sound elevated after a cable swap?
Mogami, Canare, and Belden are the typical standard for Pros.
If you can tell a difference and one cable sounds better, that's fine.
“When you talk about "cable synergy" in a system, that does not exist.”
I don’t agree with this at all...if you believe cables makes a difference then cable synergy is just as important as any other component in the system. For example, a cable with silver conductor can be just the right antidote for dull sounding systems. And in some systems, cable with silver conductor can make your system unlistenable. I have been there, done that!
ProAc D30RsA speakers are quite neutral / natural sounding so I recommend speaker cable with PC-OCC copper metallurgy. Bi-wire vs jumper is matter of debate, I say if your speakers and amp allows bi-wire configuration, I would try both ways i.e. shot gun configuration and jumpers and decide if you hear any difference between the two.
@erastof,
Check out following brands that won’t break the bank, Audio Envy ~ NV-SP9 Audio Sensibility ~ Testament Zavfino ~ Nova
One of the problems is that different people appreciate different sound. Also, the overall sound you get is the result of all the components together. For quit a while in my early days I bought some very high quality interconnects and speaker cables and they made my system sound terrible ... too harsh and trebly. Those were Transparent Audio. It wasn’t the interconnects, it was my system. Years later after several upgrades I pulled out my old Transparent and they were wonderful. All my interconnects are now Transparent Ultra Gen 5. They are... well, transparent. So, you have consider the overall sound of all of your equipment and speakers together when making a choice. If you want to hear what your system sounds like, I highly recommend Transparent. I believe they are second highest selling high end after WireWorld. There is really good reasons to stick with the big brands... Audio Quest is the third. Ample reviews, proven record, resale value... tested value to cost ratio. . Now is when someone will chime in and say, you shouldn’t use your interconnects as balance control... well, yeah but sometimes you have what you have and you can’t drop $100 grand to make the signal perfect. All copper tends to warm the system... is safe, all silver brings out details but your signal better not be harsh, or you are going to hear it! Silver coated copper can be ideal... if this sounds harsh to you, you have a real system problem! Do not... DO NOT... make a decision on cables or interconnects before you have a couple hundred hours of play on them... I have a cheap little system just to break stuff in. . My experience is bi wiring isn’t a big enough factor to be worth it. Biamping only if you really love futzing with really complex problems with multiple variables after you have your ideal system. If all your components are not great, then don’t screw around with it... unless you think it is fun.
Common denominator: the supplied biwire stamped metal speaker links are links are crap....full stop.
Speakers cable brands: that is an alchemy between your system dependency vs. Your Personal taste. Only your bespoke personal hands on bakeoffs between contenders and pretenders can lead you down the Yellow Brick Road to Audio OZ
Biamping speaker runs: Dual separate speaker pair runs is one thing, but I severe doubt your proposed standmounts would benefit from it.
Biwiring: that IS SPEAKER DEPENDENT as to whether biwires vs quality single runs with jumpers is better for your system.
My personal experience with my NORDOST FREYs: it mirrors what NORDOST highlights - quality single runs with quality jumpers rule. I have shotgunned double run FREYs with matched jumpers that bested all biwire comers in MY system (emphasis added)
Great all around cables period Wireworld Eclipse they checks all the boxes silver copper connectors ,not brass like most, 6-9s pure copper isolated conductors, and lowest dielectric insulation at a decent price Galen carol audio ,I got great deals ad service on them.
I like the single-crystal 5-nines silver ones. About $1,500 on Amazon for for 3-meter pairs. Or, make your own from 18 AWG fine silver wire and 1.5 mm PTFE tubing.
it is of course system dependent as well as dependent on listener tastes, but having said that proacs (and d30r's specifically, which i have) tend to highlight the treble and lean out the midbass a bit, so best to use all copper cables that provide some warmth... no silver/silver plating...
tuneful cables of brooklyn makes very affordable cables using belden 9497 copper with excellent terminations... it would be a very cost effective very good sounding place to start... not to say others won't work well
Speaker cables make a difference. And I have had success with Canare 4s11 internal biwire - I preferred them to audioquest rocket 44. I encourage testing because I thought it was ‘a myth’ until I tried it.
I’m going thru the same thing as the OP. For the longest time I’ve used a great set of 10 GA stranded silver cables connected to the bass inputs per JBLs preference, with some jumpers.
After a while I tried going to the upper set but it sounded worse. Going from one upper to the opposing lower sounded better so it got me thinking of true bi wiring.
The only similar cables I had around are a 14 GA and 16 GA set of Tempo Electric solid silver cables with bare ends. The 16 GA was easily the best. By far, the best sounding system to date. But then, I read Vanderstein’s take on bi wiring and how both cables should be of the same gauge and length, lest other anomalies present themselves.
With my system being on the edge of some brightness but with tons of detail and liveliness that I crave, I noticed how using two cables brought out even more musical details so maybe it’s time for some great quality copper cables.
So now it’s back to the drawing board. The more I investigated, I came across Audioquest and their Rocket series. There are two separate, insulated runs of 4 solid copper wires joined side by side that make it a great choice for an internal biwire and Audio Advisor offers a large discount if you buy the plain version of them if you allow them to terminate and finish the cable instead of buying the finished product. It’s almost 1/3 off. I just might go for a pair of Rocket 44s, but I’m still researching.
@mastering92 The cable itself should not have any sound characteristics.
When you talk about "cable synergy" in a system, that does not exist.
If I were you I would test 2 pairs - 1 cheap and well built cable, and a more expensive cable for your choice. You should be listening for transparency. Does any octave sound elevated after a cable swap?
Mogami, Canare, and Belden are the typical standard for Pros.
If you can tell a difference and one cable sounds better, that's fine.
@mastering92 What cables have you actually tested yourself, and with what amplifiers and speakers? Can you describe the listening results for each test case?
I also have had no issues with my Canare star quad cables running in biwire mode on my trusty Epos M22 floorstanders. The Epos tweeters can sometimes play sharply, but the Canares keep that well under control but also allow excellent resolving detail to come through in my system. I haven't tried super expensive cables as I always feel that kind of money is better spent on better equipment.
Stay with a single stereo set and use jumpers. Don’t use two pairs or a bi-wire set. Stay with quality copper cables and not silver or silver plated. Traditionally ProAcs are voiced more by ear than specs. I’d suggest looking at litz copper cables as that’s probably closer to what the internal wiring is. WyWires Platinum is where I’d start. Kimber 8TC would be another candidate but not going to have the openness of even WyWires Silver (not silver but copper) Series. Another crazy good cable for the money is Canare 4S11. The Canare takes a lot of hours to burn in but once it does it’s very neutral, with no edge at all and maybe a little on the softer side but not rolled off. Both the WyWyires and Canare do a better job of getting out of the way and not drawing attention to themselves as say the Kimber. The Kimber is still very good but not as open and has a little edge to it when compared to better cables. With ProAcs and quality components, stay with copper. If you want to experiment and not spend much try the Canare as it might be all you need... that being said, WyWires is more refined, more open and if your speakers have a hard time disappearing in your room they will help. Very organic cables that don’t smear, exaggerate or close things in. They simply breath.
Hmm, all these votes for Canare and all of my experience with stranded copper cables were fine, at first, until I happened upon stranded and solid silver cables. Stranded copper has always smeared the sound a bit too much for my liking. It has a very pleasing, but inaccurate, warmth to it that obscures detail and smokes the air, so to speak. Highs are a bit rounded off and the bass gets too fat and inarticulate. I say this only in comparison to what I now use, which reveals lots of info that was AWOL beforehand.
Prices are dirt cheap online what with all the DIYs out there so that gives me a bit of pause as well. I’ve been told by everyone that every cable will sound different and it’s a PITA as there is no consensus. Darn this hobby.
Questions like these are always rather futile. In this case the responses that you are going to get will fall into three categories: (i) a long and (ultimately) confusing list of member‘s favourite speaker cables - mainly reflecting nothing more than their own biases and not specifically directed to your needs. (ii) inconclusive arguments for and against bi-wiring (which can already be found on numerous other threads). (iii) posts from those who believe that cables make no difference and tell you that you are deluding yourself if you believe otherwise (which again can be found on numerous other threads).
The concept that there is a specific set of cables out there with best synergy with your speakers, and that they are somehow going be identified out of the sheer morass of feedback generated by your post is folly. On two counts.
Audioquest type 4 is all you need. It has been on the Stereophile’s recommended component list since its inception. Also if the speakers have biwire terminals, I’d take advantage of it. It does make a difference, albeit small, but it is there. Buy the type 4 from Audioadvisor, they will terminate them in house, you will save money.
@ghdprentice Great call on Transparent! I have been using Transparent for 20+ years now. I am now using their Plus speaker cables and IC's. Not only great products but excellent policies and customer service as well!
I am using Nordost with my ProAc D-40r speakers and I like the results. Single run with jumpers. My system is posted if you want to see the other components.
I also agree pcocc is the best wire for audio because it has no Crystal barriers in it like ofc wire does. Ofc wire has 600 Crystal barriers per foot which is little fractures in The wire. Pcocc has zero. Acoustic Zen prices are very reasonable compared to other sellers of single crystal wire. And also ask him to use Furutech locking rcas plugs because the center pin is also single Crystal. My whole system is wired with OCC single Crystal and every time I put in a new OCC single crystal wire you could hear how much better it was.
Best cable I know of, regardless of cost, are the Silversmith Fidelium. And Fidelium bi wire. ($1200 8’ $275 bi wire “jumper”) Check out the reviews. They are not the usual “highly recommended”. They all come out and say exactly what I say. Jeff at Silversmith tells me that he auditioned them in a million dollar system and they significantly better the existing cables. One reviewer bettered what he was using in his $600K system. And the jumper is unique in that it connects both sets of terminals and has a binding post in the middle connecting to both sets. They have a 30 day return policy.
@stereo5 Your thoughts on the Canare piqued my interest. I noticed that your office setup uses JBL L100 and I have the 4319, which are a close cousin.
I get all the bass I need from them and would like to know if you got the sub after going with the Canare SCs or if you had it all along. That, and the fact that you've kept your ICs and PCs (which weren't cheap) tells me that expense wasn't a consideration.
And, if I may ask, are the highs detailed, airy and as balanced as the rest of the spectrum? As you can see, I'm being somewhat of a glutton of food for thought before I start swapping things out.
I just saw a photo on some site where someone just used a solid silver length of wire in place of the jumper plates on the advice of some cable maker and loved the results.
The jumpers I removed were silver plated copper and using pure silver cables on both sets gave me the best sound. Maybe, just maybe, if I butcher one of my sets of Tempo Electric (14 GA or 16 GA) speaker wire and fashion some runs to connect the jumpers, I can get something similar in sound to what I now have using two sets of silver cables with their differing lengths and construction. I could easily live with that as the Cabledyne SC are quite exceptional on their own. It's just that bi wiring seems to be way to go and I haven't exhausted any better possibilities with jumpers. Back to square one.
I had the Canare 4S11 cable before I bought the JBL’s. I was using them with GE Triton Ones. I bought the JBL L100 Classic speakers in mid December and purchased the SVS subwoofer in late February. My upstairs room is the size of the entire house, so it is a very big room. I have never gotten good bass in this room until I got the GE speakers. When I went with the JBL, the bass was a little lightweight.
First thing I did was add a 4 band EQ. I only use 2 of the bands, the 60hz which I boosted 2DB and the 2Khz which I reduced 1DB. That gave me a little more oomph from the JBL 12 inch woofers and took away the forwardness in the midrange. Adding the sub was a lot of trial and error. I spent almost all of March futzing with the sub. The sub does NOT go through ther EQ, it is on the Mac’s secondary output so the eq isn’t in the circuit. I finally settled on cutting out the sub at 80hz @18DB per octave I have the sub level set where it does not call any attention to itself. If I turn it off, it is immediately apparent though.
The highs are now very airy and there is no more in your face midrange. This new set up cost about the same as the GE Triton Ones which I already sold. If I had to do it over again, I would have kept my GE Triton Ones. The Orange grills on the JBL’s makes up for it though. If you go with the Canare, it needs about 400 hours of break in and I am not kidding. Canare told me that and they were right. They also don’t know why the long break in, but after done, the sound is transformed.
@stereo5 , Thanks for the feedback. I'm lucky in that my room is much smaller than yours so bass reinforcement keeps me from using a sub. That's a lot of time and pain you went through to get your desired set up.
What you say about freeing up the speaker to concentrate on the mids and highs makes tons of sense. If I may recommend something, over at 6moons, Srajan is trying out a studio version of the Dynaudio dual opposing sub and getting great results for the same reasons you state. That studio version is a plain version of the home consumer one and is much cheaper. Here's the link:https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/dynaudio/
Hello, I have done a lot of testing on this subject. 1. If you get jumpers get one end spades and one bananas. This gives you full versatility. 2. Run the main speaker cables to the bass or lower posts so they get as much wire as possible to the woofers. 3. I prefer the Nordost Norse jumpers that someone linked above. $175I would run a good cable of your choice from the amp. I like the Nordost Heimdall 2 speaker cable. Add the Nordost Norse Jumpers and you will never look back. If you demo the cables they can take up to 2 days to load up or calm down after break in. You will understand what I mean once you listen to them. You will swear you are listening to a live performance. If you feel what ever you demo is a touch bright just upgrade your power cable on your amp and maybe preamp if they are separates to a higher gauge cable even if it is inexpensive. If you give an amp a good feeding tube or power cable it will perform it’s best. I recommend Nordost Red Dawn for the amp. This store in the Chicagoland area lets you try before you buy. https://holmaudio.com/ I have tried Nordost on ProAc speakers. Nordost cables let the ProAc mids shine like no other.
@nonoise "Stranded copper has alwayssmearedthe sound a bit too much for my liking. It has a very pleasing, but inaccurate, warmth to it that obscures detail and smokes the air, so to speak..."
The first time I used really good OCC Crystal copper (or silver plated OCC) interconnects and then went back to the my prior OFC stranded copper cables, did I finally realize how much "smearing" had been going on prior. Once I was able to compare and contrast these two types back-to-back, the difference became much more obvious than I would have ever imagined.
to my opinion, Bi-wire doesn't have any advantage over a single wire. But bi-amping does. as for jumpers on speakers ... they are so short and impedance is so small that measurements can not detect any difference, so does the human ear. I guarantee that a blind test would prove it. i have in my system 8 AWG copper cables in bi-amping configuration. Good enough for me .
@decooney , Thanks for getting back with that about OCC, which is what I have in my main, 10GA stranded silver SCs. The more I think about it, the moreI feel I should just keep that one great SC and either leave it alone as is, with the other 16GA solid core (and soft annealed) cable and not care about the looks or cut those pieces off the same brand but 14GA cables and see if that improves what I originally used for jumpers, which were silver plated OFC copper jumpers from DH Labs.
It could very well be that those jumpers were the weak link and the solid silver wire may just do the trick. I'm just on the fence, like I said.
@kgbspy, Thanks for your input as well but I already passed the point where I know for a certainty, that two cables sound better for one. It's just that those small silver wire jumpers may take me most of the way there as two cables but I won't know until I try.
OCC, triple C and DUCC OCC all are very fine cables and better than OFC. One of my best surprises was when i managed to obtain some cm of Acoustic Revive solid core triple C, same core used in their top reference range, to use as jumpers. Not cheap for some cm's but the best investment for me by far.
Speaking of OFC vs. OCC, and switching to "interconnects" and different metallurgy types, over the past year (on and off) I’ve been testing two different pairs. Using the same brand, same internal design, same connectors, and the primary difference is the type and purity of the copper inside ofc vs occ. Its been a really interesting test of "wire" types.
My speakers and amp setup is as revealing as I’d ever want it to be. This truly helps to realize differences when comparing back to back.
OFC: When swapping back and forth, you can actually hear more grain and less clarity and less high frequency extension with the OFC version. Not bad, just different. Hard to believe and true in my setup fwiw. Some times at first, OFC does sound fuller until the amps are warmed up then its more comparable with both types in terms of grain. Does seem more plump, and warmer with a mid-bass bump at times. Sound stage is less deep and slightly more forward with the OFC too. Sounds nice for different reasons short term, not long term for me. I always go back to OCC. Since they sound this way, and I don’t mind to start listening sooner, before the amps are fully warmed up with these. After full warmup with my tube amps, the ofc can become a little veiled over.
OCC: Then, swapping back to the OCC version, instantly the upper frequency extension reappears, the sound stage is literally 3x deeper and 2x larger, more clear, with more transparency and detail in the right places, yet never harsh (after 200hrs on the cables, no joke). I notice I prefer for my tube mono amps to warm up a little longer before I can enjoy the occ cables to their fullest potential. The warmth and lower bass starts to kick in once the amps and transformers are fully warmed up and saturated. Goes well with good tube amps for sure and would likely not want these with any edgy or harsh SS amps. Lets it all through in a different way than my former silver-over-copper cable, without edge, never over-emphasizing any part of the frequency range. Kinda neutral I guess.
Is "too transparent" something you'd consider as a valid observation or consideration? Well, its something I wrestled with when I first got my OCC cables new. Thankfully it all settled in after an unbelievable 200+hrs. AP calls for 300hr. I would have never believed it myself unless I had gone through it first hand. Argh, was kind of nauseating along the way with light at the end of the tunnel, eventually.
As for "going again", now I kind of want to start testing and comparing different brands using OCC only, looking for any sound variance with designs. Why? To try to make any sense of this wire voodooo magic.
I have been auditioning Kimber Kable’s Bifocals and they sound great - still questioning the dollar value but clearly sound better than other speaker cables in my system. Mixed feelings because I was happy using cheaper cables.
Just use any ordinary 8-10 AWG copper wire and ferrule the ends. They will sound perfect, look very neat and will not cost you a bundle.
If you are really picky, contrary to common opinion, I would choose a wire with less inductance than capacitance, all other things being equal.
Higher inductance will "resist" sudden changes of current (reverse EMF = -L di/dt), hence may limit the "punch" of sudden swings. Higher capacitance will start rolling off the higher frequencies. Depends which one is more important to you. To me, the "punch" is.
One of my favorites, which I still use on my office system was HD12D... something like that. Years ago, I think it was Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, just for fun, went to Home Depot and got a 12 gauge extension cord and threw it into the mix. It was actually really good. So, for my let's see... $5 or 6K system crammed in my office it is great. But for my main system with Sonus Faber Amati Traditional speakers and All Audio Research Reference stuff, it doesn't cut it.
@cakyolFor your main system, go up to 6 AWG then :-)At that thickness, almost all copper wires will have negligible resistance.Seriously, as I said, check the inductance and capacitance of the wire and buy accordingly :-)I I find my Transparent Ultra cables significantly better in my main system. While I have not tried 6 AWG I feel I can trust the engineers at Transparent to have considered it.
@mastering92 to state cable synergy does not exist implies you can't hear a difference in cable performance. IMHO that can only be caused by one of two things.. #1. having a system incapable of resolving the differences #2. having a desperate need of a hearing aid.
@cakyol, we all get it, your hearing is suspect or your system is not revealing enough.
Why do members with considerable sums of money invested have to listen to your negativity and rude put-down??? Do you really believe so many enthusiasts across so many forums are all delusional?
My wife and I easily hear the difference but then you come along to piss my battery wet.
speaker designers put 4 posts for reason so bi-wiring should yield better sound: At least it does with 4 different pairs of speakers that I own that all offer the bi-wire option. If you don't want to run 2 separate speaker runs, you can check out Audioquests Rocket series which is 2 completely separate Type 4's bound into 1 cable. This is a 8 conductor design so 4 conductors for the highs and 4 for lows. The price will vary according copper quality & whether it is a solid core or concentric packing. This allows you to bi-wire with a single cable.
" Why do members with considerable sums of money invested have to listen to your negativity and rude put-down??? Do you really believe so many enthusiasts across so many forums are all delusional?"
First, I am not putting anyone down.
Secondly and more importantly, yes, most of the audiogon contributors are indeed delusional :-) That is not a putdown but reality.
... Years ago, I think it was Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, just for fun, went to Home Depot and got a 12 gauge extension cord and threw it into the mix. It was actually really good. So, for my let's see... $5 or 6K system crammed in my office it is great. But for my main system with Sonus Faber Amati Traditional speakers and All Audio Research Reference stuff, it doesn't cut it.
While I was building some speakers using White Supra for internal wiring , and using Cardas bi-wire or Apature or AudioQuest for my main speakers over the years, thought I'd give the "Home Depot" wire a test while waiting for parts. Turned out to be a waste of money for a test.
Tried both, the extension cord -and- the brown roll wire test. Neither were really any good, kinda grainy, not smooth. Would be okay for a cheap 3rd system with veiled over speakers or something.
The whole "just go to Home Depot" and get some wire is a joke or its good enough for a basic system at best. If it makes no difference on a system compared to other decent OFC or OCC cables, either the system itself is mediocre grade or there is a hearing problem going on with the listener if they are unable to discern a difference. Best of luck.
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