Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Oh, you didn’t know??? The ASR romons can’t perceive cables, but, they can somehow magically perceive 0.0000000001% sinad and they will rank their Toppings and Poppings accordingly on the sinad romon database (purchase guidance shining light). | ||||||
This thread is frickin’ awesome, absolutely delivers. Amir: this equipment measures badly. Here’s my evidence from tests that I performed. Feel free to purchase it at your own risk. ASR Forum: science trumps all. If two pieces of "stuff" measure the same you will not hear a difference under a blind ABX test. Prove us wrong but if you argue with us, we’ll beat you into submission. Audigon: this cables sounds great, if you don’t hear the difference your equipment sucks & cannot resolve the difference, your room needs acoustic treatment, you have a tin ear, you don’t know what you’re listening for. Blind ABX tests are meaningless, I don’t need to test my hearing to know that I heard a difference. I attended a Pink Floyd concert in 1978 and I can still remember how great it was. If I like Pasta Primavera more than Chili con Carne I don’t need a blind ABX test to prove that to myself. WRT blind ABX tests... oh, you’re one of those. Why does Amir keep posting here? No one cares what he has to say... 500+ posts later the argument continues. | ||||||
@kevn I do agree with you fully. "i am confused now" was a tongue in cheek. | ||||||
Amir refuse to engage on hearing theory in acoustics.😁 He answered only about gear measurements and created discussions about this SECONDARY matter... Subjectivist takes the bait and gulp it with the line... 😊 What is hearing? and what it is not ? What do we hear when we hear a sound ? Is there a difference when human hear speech, stereo playback music and natural sound ? When we choose a piece of gear and connect it in our system and in our room and for our ears, does it make sense if we see the sheet where Amir has written the verified specs measured again does it make sense to claim that we will be able to predict if the S.Q. will be good or not so ? The answer is evident it cannot be yes ... Because there is no linear connection between sound experience and any gear specs ; they are not acoustics measures, then does not means much save for the gear electrical synergy. Measuring a single speakers did not say anything important about his concrete installation and the resulting acoustic experience but only can confirm what the designer intent was or not with the basic specs. Amir techno-cultist ideology reflect the state of our social fabric : in shambles because of the gullibility of masses easy to control as sheep going in the "right" direction... But some are able to read a text in acoustics and makes their own mind and experiments.... And some at least keep secure their only treasure : their ears... A very deceptive sense according to Amir trained to spot digital artefacts...😊 As if there was a relation between spotting digital artefact and recognizing all sounds in a jungle environment or evaluate any acoustic parameters in a dedicated room for our ears specific psychoacoustics parameters... All these perceptions about acoustic qualities dont ask for "acuity" as much as they ask for the right concept to be known and recognized...Nobody can recognize and evaluate what he dont know about even if he had sensed it ... We perceive more, if we had the right acoustic concept nevermind our measured "acuity", than a person with only top notch acuity but no conceptual experience about the sound qualities and meanings he was hearing... Amir has acuity but does he know how to change for the better the system/room ears experience in an evident way with a bundle of straws or some empty toilet paper or plastic roll?😎 Does he understand how work mechanical crossfeed or listener envelopment ? No because he need to compute each parameters separately for dimensions, geometry, size, location, and there is no simple recipe to compute it optimally for all room geometry, size, topology and all acoustic content, and all room pressure zone locations ( too much factors non linearly linked together ). We need our ears/brain trained with basic acoustics concepts if we want to recognize the S.Q. parameters interaction and their resulting meanings at the end. Anyway discussing with him about gear specs measures will only comfort his digital ideology... Amir is not even wrong here ...😊
Amir sell gear pieces... He does not sell knowledge and experiments ... Nothing will be wrong with that but his ideology about the measures presented as the only truth is the problem...
| ||||||
‘This from latest Amir’s post - How about wires? Have you listened to wires? “Many times.” - Can you hear a difference? “Very often." Mr. Amir in the introduction to one of his videos stated "we absolutely can measure the differences between cables. The question is do those measurements matter as far as the perception, and the short answer is they don’t" I am confused now.’
These kinds of contradicting statements are commonly made by individuals suffering from cognitive dissonance, knock1. Cognitive dissonance occurs in those who hold contradictory beliefs at the same time, and/or make statements that contradict, as those statements are made according to suit whatever argument is preferred at the time. Amir has made similar contradictory statements on a number of other issues - he has also conceded that measurements are not enough to tell the entire story, and yet bases all his arguments on them. It is my hope less experienced audiophiles see through the techniques of paltering and prevarication he engages in order to avoid confrontation over issues he has no proper answer for. While perfectly acceptable that one need not have answer for everything, Amir has worked his way into a corner where he must have a reply for anything, due to his deep belief measurements are all that matter. I have come to realise measurements are all he has, to overcome his inability to listen critically, possibly compounded by that one bad experience all audiophiles have at some point over a misinformed purchase made before better listening skills were cultivated. And, instead of putting the effort into learning how to listen more critically, he fell back on measurements for the security of quantitatively feeling right, as many audiophiles with lesser hearing ability also do. For those less experienced audiophiles who rely more on measurements than their ears, please please know that a whole other world exists that developed listening ability will reveal. Please do not be discouraged by the mistakes you may have made. And please do not be misled by Amir into confirmation bias by hearing what your measurements tell you. In friendship, kevin | ||||||
I want to take this opportunity to apologize to Amir and ASR members. No stance taken on a public forum is worthy of ridicule and you have every right to voice your opinions on this or any forum. Having said this, I dont believe you could be more wrong in much of what you say and the things that you use to back up your beliefs count for very little. Worse, for me, is that I believe you are doing your members and this hobby a great disservice encouraging them to follow an ideology which is completely false. Encouraging skepticism and due dilligence is fine, but implying that they dont trust their senses is not. Now that this out of the way, I can ignore you just I have before this thread started. | ||||||
This from latest Amir's post "
Many times.
Very often." and this what I posted before " Mr. Amir in the introduction to one of his videos stated "we absolutely can measure the differences between cables. The question is do those measurements matter as far as the perception, and the short answer is they don't" I am confused now. | ||||||
@amir_asr I do not understand why Amir comes here to peddle his cultist religion. No one listens or is interested. Go away and do not come back. Most other sites have banned you; you are lucky this one has not. Maybe if you did not throw people off your site for precisely what you do on this site, others might listen a bit more. Do not presume you can teach us, because it is completely obvious you do not know much. "Over 2 million people visit ASR every month." No. You might get 2 million hits a month, that is a far cry from 2 million people or is that part of your bulldust again?. In my case I pop in once a week or so to see what latest stupidity is being peddled and to read and laugh at the comments from your sycophantic minions. I could mention some but what is the point? | ||||||
Hey Amir, how many people eat at McDonalds? Further, these visits could be something akin to always looking at an auto accident as you drive by. Oh and comparing yourself to Stereophile doesnt help give you any credence. Just so I am clear, you hear differences between products that measure similarly so now you will tell us what would be an appropriate amount to spend on our equipment. Less is fine unless it is gear that you sell then the extra money is well spent. I would like to become a trained listener but will require a certificate to show my friends. Please help. Funny thing is that I will need to completely change the setup in my dedicated room to mirror your setup which runs contrary to what I have read, discussed with manufacturers and experienced in numerous rooms and shows over the last 40 years. Especially nice is the fact that I can now confidently include by big screen into my main system and improve my sound. Who new; hell who could even have imagined. Visitors to ASR, starting tomorrow, will be 2,000,001. | ||||||
Many times.
Very often.
Sure.
I haven't tried but I imagine electrons move slower the closer they are to the floor.
Same back to you.
Over 2 million people visit ASR every month. That is almost an order of magnitude more than people that visit stereophile.com. So pretty sure your claim is wrong but go ahead and provide data that back it.
| ||||||
Amir, Your sonic test might be correct (you did not test it in with stereo speakers) and .... that is not a scientific test run by many people with many toys in many systems and blind tested, etc...which is what proof is (at least that is what you preach!!!). That particular DAC might be bad......I am glad you heard a difference (OMG!!! Amir says he hears a difference). Usually, you just say they are ALL transparent. How about wires? Have you listened to wires? Can you hear a difference? Have you listened to a ton of amps and premaps and DACs and heard all the difference us serious folks hear? Of course you have not....that would upset your ego to do serious listening tests. Can you hear what getting the cables off the floor does? What if you found out you were wrong all these years and every single brand of wire sounds different from each other (which they do). Very few serious audiophiles believe your crap. Oops, I said I was over and out....well, now you can have the last word.....the ego demands it....for we have to be right. Have fun in fantasy land. | ||||||
There are multiple peer papers I suggest you read on this topic: “Noise: Methods for Estimating Detectability and Threshold, ” Stuart, J. Robert, JAES Volume 42 Issue 3 pp. 124-140; March 1994 If you don't have access to AES, you can read my quick write up in this article I published on audibility of small impairments. Or this video starting at 5 minute mark:
Once you read/watched those, take a gander at the review of the SMSL SU-1 $80 DAC. Here is its dashboard performance:
FFT spectrum shows distortion products way below threshold of hearing. Even discarding simultaneous masking, those impairments are inaudible. Dynamic range likewise covers threshold of hearing to playback level of about 115 dBSPL:
That is transparency for you, albeit, just at the edge with respect to dynamic range. This $80 DAC cleans the clocks of many expensive DACs. Here is for example PS Audio DirectStream DAC which costs $6,000+
Distortion products are now at -80 dB which is a massive 50 dB worse than the $80 SMSL DAC! It uses an output transformer which saturates and generates these harmonics. Its noise floor is so high that it can't even clear 16 bit audio:
Well, there are my listening tests of above PS Audio DAC: Listening Tests You were saying?
| ||||||
So tell me how you measure dynamics in a speaker? How fast the speaker is? Is that measurable? Mid bass punch under actual program material? I had pioneer S1ex speakers. Heavy as hell and measured really well. Well they had 0 mid bass and no dynamics for anything other than acoustic rock… which they were amazing at! If I was just that or maybe a classical guy might have been perfect. But alas despite the amazing measurements and the bombshell cabinet it was a no go. My Focal 836w measured worse but similar.They sounded TOTALLY different real world with a multitude of amps both ss and tube. | ||||||
@ricevs I can vouch bought an $80 dongle based on a ASR review just for kicks and I can assure you the listening tests correspond to the measurements. That thing is as clear and detailed as I have heard and I’ve heard it all. Also I picked up a second Fosi amp based on ASR review that I use in a desktop system and that also lives up to the measured performance. So like him or not Amir is doing something right I would have to say. Probably at least as much as anyone, maybe more. YMMV. Other gear I own includes Bel Canto, Cambridge, Sonus Faber, KEF, Ohm, Linn and Electrocompaniet. It all sounds really good but different. I’ve owned tube gear in the past as well and not missing it. The best SS and tube gear tends to sound more similar than different to me over the long term.
| ||||||
This sentence made no sense at all.
First all tube amp are different as all S.S. amp. Then it makes no sense to generalize saying that all tube amp are in the same bag : bad coloration.( i bet he does not know Berning Tube amp ) And what the artist intented to do do not represent a single intent but result also from what his recording engineer trade-off set of choices is adding to the artist intent. There is an acoustics complex set of information ( not a simple single intent) which is recorded and must be translated in your Room ACOUSTICALLY. The amplifier type does not play the main role here save for people completely ignorant of acoustics powerful impact . Putting this double intention of the artist and of the recording engineer in relation with your amplification type is ridiculous.😊 it is complete acoustics ignorance promoting digital gear by a bias directly resulting from his digital software engineering background. I already discussed all that with Amir here using the work of a designer and physicist Van Maanen one year ago. Amir did not understood anything attacking this physicist reputation in audio ad hominem .. I will not use all this a second time...😁 If me a complete dilettante playing in my dedicated room with acoustics basic can see through this narrow ideology anybody reading science articles can... Then it is useless to argue... We understand only if we are not paid to be deaf by money, pride or hubris...
| ||||||
No, it could be anything. I measured a $20,000 DAC last year that a company sent me. Measurements clearly showed that it had the implementation bug we call "ESS IMD Hump" which every major Chinese company had already solved. Even outside of that, performance was ordinary. The DAC had beautiful build, and weight more than any other DAC I have tested. But failed in delivering what matters: transparency for the input signal as a $100 DAC provides. It is a sad fact that the more you pay for audio electronics today, the more likely it is that you get worse performance. Take that Eversolo DAC:
Now compare that to Mytek Brooklyn Bridge II Streamer which costs five times more at $5,000: Look at all that power supply noise and how dirty its spectrum is. Poor attention was paid to circuit layout and design, causing interference from digital circuits to bleed into the sensitive DAC. Clearly Eversolo people know how to better do this job than Mytek. And it is not like you got something prettier:
This is the power of what we do at ASR. Objective analysis that points out who cared to produce a high fidelity product and who did not. | ||||||
Amir, Where is your proof that an $80 DAC.....or any DAC for that matter, is transparent? Where are the listening tests that PROVE what you say? You are lying.....plain and simple. You have no idea what transparency is since you do not listen. Just an ego game......spinning out of control.....the same story....over and over......Meanwhile those that listen, know you are just full of hot air. Your hot air ballon will not make you happy. You have to embrace truth to feel happiness.....I wish you happiness......embrace the truth. There are tons of reviews on the Eversolo.....and UNIVERSALLY, they say the DAC is the sonic weak point. However, even the streamer is not state of the art......not even close. But for you midfi guys, it is great. The guru of the midfi non believers......what a great title. You will never convince anyone here that you have any REAL knowledge. You just have graphs....and BS. Of course, there is nothing we can say to break up your ego dance/self trance.......and it takes two egos to dance. Are we having fun, yet? However, two pure souls can dance a divine cha cha cha......quite exquisite. Again, go outside and play. Be in the now. Sing a happy song......that goes for all of us.....including me. This thread has gone on far too long. Let us play another game. I will not play here any more. Enough is enough......this drama is boring....same old thing....over and over......the listeners versus the measurers. | ||||||
No, I am just going by the assumption that you are hearing a different sound with tube amps than transistor. That coloration is therefore added to every piece of music, making it different than what the artist intended. Taking a position that this is required to enjoy music, shows completely lack of understanding of how music moves all of us.
Not at all. My reason for replacing the the ML DAC was due to the fact that it was limited to 96 kHz sampling. And no DSD support. I had purchased a ton of high-res music which I had to resample in Roon to listen to them. So with much sadness I replaced that workhorse which had served me so well for so long. Here is my review of Mark Levinson No 360S DAC stating some of this:
"Conclusions I still have that DAC by the way. Don't have the heart to sell it. Since above writing, I have switched to a Topping DAC. While it is extremely performance and has the functionality I need, it is a tiny device and doesn't bring the pride of ownership that the ML had.
I don't care what genre you listen to. A single speaker is far easier to analyze than two of them interacting in a different room than what you have, with different music to boot. Jazz music by the way, makes for poor speaker test music. This is the research on that: As you see, it ranks #8 and #9. | ||||||
You cannot win an argument discussing gear measurements with Amir. 😊 All the ideology behind his papal decree on his own measurements value cannot be erased no more than any other reviewers using his own measurements as the truth can be dismissed by discursive arguments ...
What is a sound as perceived by human hearing? what is a sound quality musically and in acoustics ? Does these complex set of interelated qualities can be predicted by few set of gear measures? No. The subjectivist and the objectivist focus TOGETHER on the gear piece... One with his ears the other with his tools... We must focus on the system/room/ears... Then no piece of gear described by a small set of measure can say anything about the S.Q.experience perceived by one ears/brain in a specific room with specific pieces of gear. 😊 Period. | ||||||
“That's right. You need to then apply understanding of those measurements, the engineering behind the design and science of hearing. With all of those factors combined, you can build a high confidence idea of how good a piece of audio gear is vs other choices.”
says who? You? How far can you travel off the perfect measurement path Amir? “That's not to say there is no room for much more expensive DACs. Some of us, and that includes me, appreciate other things than sound such as looks, features (VU meters, EQ), etc. “
So the only difference between a $200 topping and a 2k dac with meters is meters? .. well not many dacs have meters so there’s that. Why the F would they have a meter? lol
| ||||||
That's right. You need to then apply understanding of those measurements, the engineering behind the design and science of hearing. With all of those factors combined, you can build a high confidence idea of how good a piece of audio gear is vs other choices.
Once you bring in electro-mechanical components like speakers, then what you theorize is impossible. Heck, a pair of speakers from same company and model will likely measure differently. So no sense in talking about speakers measuring the same. In controlled listening tests though, we can get speakers that tie statistically based on listener preference. In those situations, you can then apply other buying factors such as price, looks, support, etc. Above is what we do at ASR. We narrow down the near-infinite choices down to good number of speakers which you can then select from, knowing with high confidence that you are not buying a dud.
Putting aside the fact that those China DACs are part of whole category that includes such companies as Schiit and JDS Labs in US, your claim there is without evidence. Come back in a controlled test to show that what you say is true and then we stand up and take notice. Until then, I can put two identical DACs behind a screen and get every one of you to say they sound different. So forgive us if we don't put much value behind such claims. Fact is that the best designs in DACs today come from these mass market companies. They have a closed loop design process where they measure and optimize for transparency. And since DACs can be highly optimized from manufacturing point of view, you get superb, transparent sound for as low as $80. That's not to say there is no room for much more expensive DACs. Some of us, and that includes me, appreciate other things than sound such as looks, features (VU meters, EQ), etc. The Chinese companies are almost getting there on this front as well, while still charging reasonable prices. Here is a recent example, the Eversolo DMP-A6:
For $850, you not only get an excellent DAC but a full blown streamer running Android as well. Would love to see more high-end DAC companies produce high performance DACs that also look luxurious. | ||||||
Measurements are a starting point not the be all end all. If everything measured the same assuming we could measure everything (cannot) we would just have one speaker to choose from. Maybe a small/med/large. The china brand dacs they love so much might measure amazing on a 200 buck dac but are they sure don't sound as good subjectively. If I'm not mistaken the newer Topping D9x or something or other does not measure near as well as it's predecessor but it's pretty unanimous it sounds better Subjectively.
| ||||||
Looks like golden eared Amir finally went into hiding. It's amazing how many audio listeners disagree with that guy and he still just persists with his anti-tube ideology with endless charts and measurements. 2000 products? How does this guy live with a product for any reasonable period of time to draw any logical conclusion? Guy's a complete sociopath. | ||||||
I have a few different violins and i’ve recorded the same pieces on them. If i ask this garage monster to point out which violin is which (between 2 of them specifically), i can guarantee 1000%, he couldn’t tell them apart (the trained listener/joker that he is who did some listening training on harman’s website for an hour, wow!!). I could pick out which one is which like night and day (what an anomaly that is to be "scientifically" discarded i must be!!)...It is the type of adaptation that happens when you spent 40 years with such an instrument. But, you couldn’t explain any of it to a low IQ garage monster. Years ago, when i was visiting Technics HQ, they were demonstrating/showing me circuits with identical measurements that sound drastically different. Can ya explain that to this garage monster undergrad (Circuits 101 moron)? Ya can’t... Cover his garage (listening room) with glass panels, remove the glass panels and cover with wood. You can be rest assured that the garage monster will measure the same in each case and start jumping up and down about how brilliant he is. But, for anyone with a half a noodle in his head, it will be obvious that the materials which makes up the reflective surfaces in your room drastically affect what you hear. The materials used in drivers themselves affects what you hear...He would measure diddly for you though. All is lost with the fanatical garage monster. Later boys....
| ||||||
"Because we know its not true"......says classicrockfan. The "we" are the 15%? of audiophiles that think that the only thing that matters is measurements. The "they" are the 85%? of audiophiles that KNOW that things sound different.....because they have evidence....they heard it. The only thing that is true in audio is what we hear. You cannot say something is NOT TRUE when you do no listening tests. You simply have your head in the sand and want to be right. There are NO tests that prove what Amir and the 15% claim.....none whatsoever......because you cannot prove that things sound the same.......when, in fact, to those that listen.....they sound different. Amir's game is simply made up.....fantasy......And as I said before, if you base your ideas of sound on theory and not listening....then you have no real knowledge or truth.......and something stated as truth, when there has never been any proof of that statement......is therefore a big fat LIE. All DACs and amps and preamps sound the same......big fat lie. All cables sound the same.....big fat lie. Amir is lying.....plain and simple......and in his soul.....he knows it. His ego thinks he is right. Those of us that listen do not need to do tests to prove we hear differences......because the truth is self evident. But those that claim to know how something sounds by measurements.....they need to PROVE IT.......because those of us that listen....KNOW it is BS. Should be A-MAGA.....Amir's Make Audio Great Again.....site. He will banish forever all those high priced snake oil products and save us from those greedy bastards.........yes, that is how they think. He is the Messiah......coming to our rescue. Please save me Amir.....Please. I cannot read one more review of $5000 ethernet cables. This is all so funny. But we need some drama. So, here we are. The ego knows no limits to drama. What is true is what we experience......More and more I experience divine love and joy.....for that is what I put my mind and attention on......more and more of the time and deeper and deeper. This is the path of every soul on this planet......to evolve in truth and love. How much more love can we feel today?.......there is always more.....divine love is infinite.....there are many mansions there.......it never ends. Fighting Amir will end......when you stop fighting. Love never ends.....like the Sun.....it shines on and on and on and on......we are that Sun....we are that light. Please get out in the Sun and feel the blessings of life in every cell of your body and soul (70 trillion cells in your body.....what a miracle we are!) | ||||||
Ideological techno cultism propaganda suggested as THE "science" nowadays is so pervasive , that it ask for courage to simply communicate interesting acoustics "tweaks" as mechanical room equalization with a grid of resonators , or the use of mechanical crossfeed of stereo speakers for the ears/brain as i did as experiments in my room with a success exceeding most possible upgrade of gear at no cost. imagine suggesting simple but more controversial experiments as shungite/quartz on interconnect cable or gear piece for the fun of verifying something ...I was classed as "tin foil hat" by people who do not understand with their own ears basic acoustics ... 😊 The objectivist crowd call people as myself "audiophile" meaning Ignorant... But i demonstrated with the last science article discoveries in acoustics about hearing theory that many of the so called objectivist crowd had no idea of what they spoke about, software engineer or not...😊
Spotting digital artefacts on digital formats has nothing to do with spotting system/room/ears qualitative parameters and acting on them as a whole. This is the difference between Amir and me. He need ear acuity, i need more acoustics concepts interaction concrete understanding . 😊
| ||||||
We are measuring output impedance. The spectrum analyzer measures the voltage amplitude for each frequency. Why do you need to introduce "time domain" here? If it is just DC voltage then you just need a Fluke voltage meter. But the output here comprises of multiple frequency that’s why you need a spectrum analyzer. Also I assume the load is mostly "real" and not "complex". If it is "complex" then it can be complicate as you need the phase as well. That is why I said this is not an easy test to do and you’re may not be prepared to perform it.
Then use a higher impedance load to reduce the current load. I was only using it as an example.
This is what the spec for the P12. You can use it to calculate how much current is appropriate. If the output is 120V then the max current is 1000VA/120V = 8.3A.
That is why I said it’s not simple test to measure and I don’t think you have a setup for it. You can reduce the wattage by using a square wave instead of a continuous output.
They all have to obey Ohm’s law. They all should have output impedance that can be measured. There is nothing special here except you’re dealing with very high voltage and current. That is why the test is not easy. You took the short cut.
That is just your conjecture. I don’t have data to back it up.
I am not saying you should use square wave to test for everything, but in this special case of testing a AC power regenerative, the square wave can tell you if the P12 does what is is supposed to do - that is delivering the current from a very low impedance source.
Then use a lower frequency for example 1KHz. Use just need to mimic a step response to see how the amp can produce a demand current. If you don’t like square wave, just use step response.
| ||||||
I love classicrock's explanation on how to not get banned on ASR forums. You can disagree but not really. Cult seems to be an appropriate way to describe ASR followers. Amir offers simple explanations to complex problems, one central figure who has all the answers, shunning or banning if you question the guru, safe spot that doesnt encourage actual complex thought, aggressive defense of the master and an ability to find members who are searching for answers but suffer from problems of confidence. I think a deprogramming is in order. This may be nothing more than forcing these people to sit down and listen with an open mind. However such listening might force an existential crises so get ready for some therapy. | ||||||
It is clear that acoustics rules audio experience which is not mere room acoustic... If we dont understand psychoacoustics we can anyway tune our system/room for sure without reading these articles above...😊 But if we want to really understand why Amir posit an ideology about a few tools as THE audio truth we must read these articles which explain what we hear and how this affect us, in a way no tools used as a set of toys to promote audio S.Q. truth could because it is only gear marketing in a new form. There would be nothing wrong with Amir measurements if he did not disparage hearing and acoustics and users preferences parameters as basis and key, instead of the gear specs, so much important electrical synergy could be and is for sure to start a system /room journey... Acoustic synergy matter no less... Gear dont matter at last anyway it is only a starting point ( it is budget dependant) acoustics matter at last if we want to do the best and the optimum with what we can afford ...
For sure you cannot replace a lesser quality component with acoustics knowledge nor compensate for it. Design quality matter too. Then in this sense specs matter. But once said the impact of acoustics on a system/room exceed any upgrade in S.Q. improvement %... By far... it is not well known because marketers sell gear pieces as acoustic solution to S.Q. problem...It is not even wrong because as i said design quality matter... But no marketer sell their gear piece asking the consumers to study acoustics to reach the optimum with their new piece of gear... They instead said that their piece of gear is "perfect" as it is for them... Unwrap and plug and be on top of the world... Sorry it is false no system whatever his price can beat acoustics...
| ||||||
Thanks for your kind words... Now try to read this one , i even bought the book of this writer : The Body-Image Theory of Sound: An Ecological Approach to Speech and MusicThen relate this article to this one which confirmed that the acoustician above is right : Pythagoras was wrong: There are no universal musical harmonies, study findshttps://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html This second article synthetize the research in this one : Timbral effects on consonance disentangle psychoacoustic mechanisms and suggest perceptual origins for musical scaleshttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z
This last one is very important too and confirm alll the others: Bodily maps of musical sensations across cultures
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121
| ||||||
Also, Mahgister, thank you for the link you posted earlier to that study regarding human hearing and the Fourier uncertainty principle - https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html It helps explain a lot about what many of us have suspected/felt for as long as we have been in the hobby, in noticing both subtle and more obvious differences with each change of our systems. The way the article has been written is both simple to understand in form, and profound in critical content. ; )
| ||||||
Thanks for your interesting opinion and personal experience.. He stay polite with me but never understood in good faith any of the scientific text i suggested the last time i dicussed with him...He could not anyway because it demolished his fragile ideology about his small set of measurements he put over hearing and even over hearing theory... Probably i am a very bad judge of people character and perhaps i am wrong about my objection concerning the accusation of narcissism... I cannot debate this in either way.... I will trust your judgment over mine in this... 😊
| ||||||
@rankaudio / @mahgister “This is why i criticized Amir about hearing theory and he had no idea of what i spoke about ... Ignorance rule...” rankaudio/magister, in a thread with similar posted outcomes last year, I asked amir about the value of a particular test for listening ability, a very accessible test on the internet to gauge listening ability over different resolutions of tests files. In reply, Amir said it was not a good test for its purpose, and referred me instead to a site purposed for those wanting to learn how to listen, oblivious to the fact that the test I had referred him to was one on testing inherent listening ability, and nothing to do with learning. He brushed away his misstep upon my pointing it out, but nonetheless acknowledged my listening abilities to have identified all resolutions accurately, only to lead on to a more conclusive but inaccessible test he had performed, in dismissing my result as being ‘undocumented’. He then proceeded to deride me when I called him out for not having even performed the said test I referred him to, accusing me of having ‘tricked’ him into believing I wanted to ‘learn’ from him, when all I wanted was to prove him wrong. mahgister, there are moments like this littered through all of Amir’s exchanges with others, especially the ones he has with you. He often fails to read the substance of the posts of others, conflates issues under discussion with either his credentials, or measurements of singularities as the end all, prevaricates when he has no answer, and never acknowledges his mistakes when made, which we all make as the imperfect beings we are. Everything about his behaviour in his posts point to cognitive dissonance, a vital cornerstone of narcissism. The WebMD summarises well… ‘People who show signs of narcissism can often be very charming and charismatic. They often don’t show negative behavior right away, especially in relationships. People who show narcissism often like to surround themselves with people who feed into their ego. They build relationships to reinforce their ideas about themselves, even if these relationships are superficial.’ It goes on to add that narcissists have ‘a preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, or brilliance’ and are insisting of the fact ‘they have the best of everything’, which in amir’s case, are the instruments he measures with. What the WebMD fails to state is that narcissists are of belief they are right about everything they stand for, which, for amir, is the half science of measurements. Even you, mahgister, label him as ignorant, while deflecting all attention from your statement by accusing others of insulting and calling him names. The fact is, a reasonable diagnosis based on evidence of engagement, in your case ‘ignorance’, and in rankaudio’s case ‘narcissism’, does in no way constitute insult or childish name calling. The simple fact is that Amir engages his important, and yet half science of measurements as a singularity, in ignorance of all other vital relationships, and does so with narcissistic tendencies of arrogance; and neither you nor rankaudio, are incorrect in your statements.
in friendship, kevin | ||||||
ASR could have some purpose, but after what Amir has said on this thread I dont think any contribution can be made. In fact if his brand had any credence it is now gone. Belief systems dont trap people, lack of experience and due diligence traps people. In a hobby which entirely revolves around listening, I have no time for people that dont or wont listen.
| ||||||
i get what you want to say and you appear to me very rational...
But there is no middle ground between "paid a lot" and suit my taste and "measured good" then proved to be the best ... Subjectivist as objectivist dismiss acoustics as the main audio factor not price tag or few electrical measures and graphs , the two group even confuse acoustics with room acoustic. This is why i criticized Amir about hearing theory and he had no idea of what i spoke about ... Ignorance rule...
| ||||||
ASR has a contribution to make. I just hate the forum culture that Amir promotes. And they don’t recognize they’re trapped in their own belief system, just like the colored fuse and audiophile network switch folks. There’s so much psychology built into any audio gear...what the ASR folks don’t get is that their expectation bias from "tests well" isn’t any different from expectation bias from "paid a lot" or "looks cool." There is a reasonable middle ground here. For whatever reason, the Internet seems to polarize rather than inform. | ||||||
It takes a special type of fanatical wacko to get booted out of every forum, get fired from every job, etc. I witnessed it years ago, i.e., how lousy this guy was when he got booted out of everywhere. Such a lousy creature will be forced to become an "entrepreneur" (whoop di doo), start his own lousy forum, etc. Most sociopaths in this world are manipulative enough to sport their cults and fair share of low IQ minions...The rest is history with this guy. It will be a great day indeed when this thread gets shut down. | ||||||
Amir is not a narcissist... It is a too strong word used here like an insult... He think that because he learned how to spot digital artefact he trained his ears "acuity" potential... He is right about that... The problem is acuity to spot digital artefact means nothing about the way we must learn how to hear acoustics and musical concepts from a system/room... But i had no doubt that his opinion reflect a general ideology about sound and hearing ...
| ||||||
"defeat" is an aggressive word my apologies I should have used "refute" instead. ASR is not an cult you all are invited to express your opinions and listening experiences that don’t need to agree with the measurements or opinions of other members but don’t go dramatic like saying "my $2000 shunyata power cable made a startlingly significant improvement" or "give it 200 hrs of burn-in it will get better better better" because we know that’s not true. Amir created ASR on the principles of engineering to evaluate audio equipment so that we could trust ASR wholeheartedly since there's no sponsor or advertisement influence and absolutely no paid-trolls... but based on objective measurements. Later. | ||||||
