Solid states more accurate than tubes?

What tube amp and what SS amp are you comparing ? Or are you just making an overall blanket statement?

I have a McCormack dna1 and a bob Latino tube amp but was actually making a general blanket assessment. 

Yeah its a well known fact SS is more accurate. Duh. Just look at the graphs. Tubes are expensive fancy short-lived tone controls. The warmth is all distortion anyway.

Probably a few more cliches I left out but that should cover it. 

It depends on which speakers are used with the amps.Tubes with particular speakers can present a more accurate presentation than a ss amp will.It's the way they compliment each other's distortions.

I don't think measurements and graphs reflect how a speaker truly sounds and if accurate high fidelity is the goal, would that mean that solid state is the only way to go? 

Depends on the tube amp some have very good measurements very linear and some SS amps measure pretty bad. That said it seems most people who like tubes do like the coloration tubes offer. There is no right or wrong but if accurate and neutral are your goals SS is easier to find that with. 

This is an interesting article on this subject! All tube amps do not sound the same and all solid state amps do not sound the same. It all depends on what amps you are comparing!!
https://medium.com/collectors-weekly/could-an-old-school-tube-amp-make-the-music-you-love-sound-better-a35574739c45

SS has higher 7th and 9th harmonic distortion than tubes and that is not as natural sounding to the ear!

Tubes have higher 2nd and 3rd harmonics, however that is generally more pleasant, so there is a subjective sonic trade off between tubes and SS.

I prefer beauty over accuracy.

When you look at your wife or GF after she rolls out of bed in the morning that is accuracy.... when she is made up for a nite on the town.....that is beauty.

Some SS has the beauty of tubes and some tubes do not have beauty.

I prefer natural to made up.

As the amp output impedance goes up, the frequency output tends to track the speaker impedance more.  That is, the frequency output looks like the impedance curve, instead of the original curve of the speaker.

As a result of this, a tube amp can be "tuned" by the speaker load.

Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is bad.

The OP is slapping paint with a 12 inch wide brush. 

Yes, ... most tube amps have higher output impedances that SS amps.  My amp, an ARC Ref 150 SE, has an output impedance of roughly .76 ohms off the 8 ohm taps.   By contrast, most SS amps have output impedances that are much, much lower, ... some close to zero.

And as other posters have noted, most speakers were voiced to be driven by a low output impedance SS amp.  So, if a tube amp has a high'ish output impedance, ... yes, ... a speaker that was voiced to be driven by a SS amp, will not produce a linear FR if driven by a high'ish output impedance tube amp. 

In the case of my ARC Ref 150 SE, I calculated that the FR variation between the low impedance point of my speakers (say 4 ohms in the bass region) and the high point (say 23 ohms at the 2.2K Hz mid-to-tweeter x-over point) is roughly 1.6 db. It's an Ohm's Law thing.  

But that does not end the story, ...ergo my point about the 12 inch brush.  As don_c55 notes, a particular tube amp/speaker combo may just sound wonderful.  Just because ...

The OP should check Ralph Karsten's (Atmasphere's) posts over the years.  He speaks at great length about why some tube amps sound so good, despite being "tone controls."

Just my humble opinion.

BIF

this is such a complex question; beginning with "is accuracy always what we want?" and "on what distortion weighting algorithm do you define accuracy?"
bell Labs and H.264/MPEG both championed subjective testing to optimize trade offs. Neither are exactly audiofools as the word goes....

Music theory tells us that there are distortions that are consonant and others that are dissonant. The finest pianos and violins have significant consonant distortion, from their cases and sounding boards. Is that a bad thing? Down with Steinway and Boesendorfer?

Obviously there is a wide spectrum within each camp as well. Old CJ stuff was lush but wildly inaccurate. I suspect, but cannot prove, that some SS gear is in many ways accurate but generates enough dissonant distortion to be no enjoyable (on some music anyway).

And then there is the SS gear explicitly designs to minimize the dissonant distortions ("SS sound") - whether you buy that logic or not. I actually do but warn that its really hard since we rarely know everything to measure. Wish I did.
G

Again, it is all about the design.  Have you heard a 101D DHT tube sound?  I find SS has a sorter decay so piano never sound correct to my ears but again it depends on the amp design.

The way I see it, let the makers sweat the specs.  Let the listener sweat the "Wow."  ...And I ain't talking about turntable speed instability.

Tube pre with SS amp is the way to go IMHO, best of both worlds if you can get the synergy right

’accuracy’ is over sold and under delivers

sympathetic distortion is the name of the game

we are painting a watercolour here, not fastidiously documenting an actual event

Funny. I recently switched from my Conrad Johnson pv-11 to my krell Pam 5 and the krell has way more detail. I even had nos telefunken 12au7’s in the cj. I think I’ll be staying with the krell for a while. Maybe look into buying a nice Ayre pre. I believe I’m hearing a lack of distortion. The krell also has a separate power supply and is a very quiet pre. 

No system or listening environment is going to be totally accurate, so why not go with what you enjoy listening to the most. What do you really have to prove? 

Some experts say all ss amps sound the same i don't believe that. Some don't like the sound of mcintosh so amps I happen to like the sound of mine. but with all the discussion about ss vs tube it still comes down to personal preference. And as others have said before it also depends on matching components to reach that personal preference.

As with every component, it depends entirely upon the IMPLEMENTATION, not the categorisation. There is one well known manufacturer that has been criticised by some for producing tube amps that sound too analytical and ‚solid state‘. The reverse has been said about a few solid state manufacturers.

SS might be more accurate, tonal balanced, refined, dynamic,,, is my guess, anda  position held by the SS community.
Yet in my experiences and for my taste, the choice is very simple, ~~Tubes~~~ always and forever,,,= I  have no interest whatsoever to consider employing SS amplification. 
IMHO SS is old dinosaurish technology,,which we had no choice but to use back in the day,,,Maraztn, Rotel, NAD, Nachimishi, Krell. 

nahhh I ;'ll forgo  your beliefs that SS has tonal superiority, dynamics, superior sonics~~ over  my tube selection,, Yeah guess I'll hang with the tube-let-down-sound, Oh how dull and boring is the tube sound vs the spectacular, stunning, wonderful world of SS experiences..Ohh what I am missing out on.
Yeah I'll stay with the loser-tube sound.
Snakeoil buster here

Tube pre with SS amp is the way to go IMHO, best of both worlds if you can get the synergy right


My philosophy is stay with one or the other,, please don't mix ss with tubes. 
Not sure who started that idea,,but its time to let that belief die out. 

Systems are about mating components.
Look at these Proac impedance graphs at Stereophile:
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/808P28fig1.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/610PD2fig1.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/320PD2Rfig1.jpg

Proac’s could be a nightmare for some SS.
Their roller coaster impedance is not transformer ideal.

BTW, I have tube and SS amps. Tubes drive the mids & tweets on LFT-8b, both of which are near resistors. M-125s drive the mids, PL5 tweets. NuPrime ST-10 for the woofs. The M-125s are highly modified to correct factory defects. See  http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/VTA_M-125.php

Probably the most accurate amp you can get is the Benchmark AHB2. They would work with your speakers.

Might want to consider Linear Tuba Audio for tube amplification with SS detail. 

This may be more of a philosophical question but isn't there only one true fidelity and is the technology there, either ss or tube or a combo that's capable of achieving that or is that a myth?  Then there's also a good likelihood that accurate reproduction may not be pleasing although I've never thought live orchestra or acoustic bands sound bad. 

jaferd -- Accuracy in a system can be a double-edged sword.   If fate decrees it that your favorite music has been recorded terribly, sometimes it helps if your system is slightly more forgiving, i.e., more euphonic & less accurate.

isn’t there only one true fidelity

No. We all hear differently. We all remember differently.
Different aspects of reproduced sound are preferred.

I have some tube amps.  I've been recently swapping out interconnects.  The difference is apparent.  Of course, how apparent depends on the amp and the speakers.  

I took these over to a buddy's place who had also heard the differences at my place.  We played on his nice SS system.  We pretty much could not tell the difference.  

Why?  Only guesses, but we all (others too) heard distinct differences on some of my tube amps.  

I assume by true fidelity you mean high fidelity? High fidelity in audio means reproduction of sound without distortion and color that remains true to the original. In order to achieve that you need very accurate measuring equipment. The biggest obstacle now is speakers and room. 

SS is always more accurate.

A digital camera is more accurate than was Ansel Adam's camera and film.

Few would argue the beauty of Adam's work.

I thought the question was which is more accurate in reproducing not creating. The artist   and associatiated technicians creates, we simply try to reproduce what they created. In order to be faithful to that creation then accuracy is paramount. If I don't care for the creation then I can color it with distortion or tone controls that's my decision. But to answer the original question which is more accurate solid state or tubes in reproducing I would say solid state. 

Well, it dependes on what SS and tube amp you are comparing and your personal taste. 

My 300B 805 tube amp (48 wpc) has about 1% THD vs 0.0001% on my Class D amp (400 wpc), both very rewarded among audiophiles. Guess what, I prefer by a WIDE margin the tube amp. Much more real, 3D soundstage, grip, balls, tone and dynamic sound. 

I agree 100% with @jjss49 when he says above "we are painting a watercolour here, not fastidiously documenting an actual event". 

we are painting a watercolour here, not fastidiously documenting an actual event".

That might be what you’re doing but the original question was not how can I paint a watercolor but which device REPRODUCES the original more ACCURATE. If you have 1% THD then you’re not reproducing the original but coloring it with distortion and that’s fine if that’s your goal but it’s not answering the OP question of Accuracy it's just offering your preference.

Buy a Pathos or Rouge Audio Sphinx and have the best of both worlds with a hybrid design.

i will never go back to 100% ss. 

The problem here is what solid state amp vs what tube amp.

And this has everything to do with Gain Bandwidth Product, which is a factor that can limit how much feedback an amplifier has. For this reason, IMO traditional solid state amps are not more accurate, as nearly all of them in the last 60 years have been brighter and harsher than real life.

But tube amps also have insufficient Gain Bandwidth Product; what has saved them and why they are still around so many decades after being declared ’obsolete’ is that they tend to make lower ordered harmonic distortion, which is fairly inaudible to the human ear, as opposed to the higher ordered harmonic distortion of solid state.

OTOH if you can get enough gain bandwidth product, then it is possible to build a solid state amp that finally has enough feedback, such that at higher frequencies distortion is still controlled. In terms of traditional solid state amps you can count on one hand the amps that have succeeded in this way- the Benchmark amp appears to one of them. There are also class D amps that do too- because its relatively easy to get gain with class D and you don’t have to worry if the amp goes into oscillation- in fact in a class D amp, that would be something that you want!


Its this oscillation issue that is why prior amp designs have had insufficient feedback: add too much and the amp will go into oscillation at some frequency, owing to the phase margins of the amp being exceeded. Because that generally isn’t a good behavior on the part of an amp, lessor amounts of feedback are used to promote stability. But that means the amp won’t have enough feedback at higher frequencies and so it will sound harsh. But nevermind, many manufacturers have a simple solution for that called ’lying’.


This is why feedback has gotten a bad rap (I’ve not yet mentioned that its application results in distortion as well; see the writings of Norman Crowhurst from 50 years ago...). A pragmatic designer might instead build an amp with no feedback at all, generally designing so it makes the distortion that is relatively inaudible and doesn’t make the distortion that is. At least that way you avoid the gain bandwidth issue! And there are ways to minimize distortion without feedback; some zero feedback amps have some pretty impressive distortion figures.

So it really does make a difference of which amps you’re talking about; ignoring all this simply means that the blanket statement

Solid states more accurate than tubes?

is simply false and nothing for it.

I don't find ss to be less pleasing to the ears. Infact, I prefer the more natural sound of it. Maybe I just like it's coloration more and tube coloration is just too much. Eitherway, I guess the point of the hobby is to find something you like, not necessarily true fidelity. 

Many people take the brightness of traditional solid state as detail but in fact most of the time its simply distortion. If the amp is truly low distortion at all frequencies then it will be more detailed but also relaxed.

If we are talking about preferences, that is another matter entirely unrelated to what is 'more accurate'!

@millercarbon is a troll
Listen to @atmosphere, he knows of what he speaks as the other guy is nothing but verbosity.

Maybe I just like [ss] coloration more and tube coloration is just too much.

I like tube amps and am pretty sure I'd find Proacs dreadful.

Solid states more accurate than tubes?

You ask for "accuracy", which means NO coloration’s.

Of coarse they are, any "good" solid state is more accurate than "good" tubes, especially into medium to hard to drive speakers.

An OTL tube amp into very easy/efficient speakers can equal them for accuracy and also on the test bench, but then those easy to drive/efficient speakers themselves are not the most accurate things to listen to.

Cheers George

I was makinga  YT vid on my new IC's and some guy knocked on my back door thinking it was a live band,,,, I told him i was makinga  vid and could not offer hima  free beer.... SS can't replicatea  live feeling,, Tubes Can make it LIVE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1gtIouVb6E&t=6s

Don_C55: "When you look at your wife or GF after she rolls out of bed in the morning that is accuracy.... when she is made up for a nite on the town.....that is beauty."

So the question for us is where is the median? The hybrid that isn’t a compromise? Maybe just a brush thru the hair with a smile and little on? (I’m not specifying gender here!) 

Kinda like using good cabling and acoustics to tweak final product.

but then those easy to drive/efficient speakers themselves are not the most accurate things to listen to.

This is highly debatable! Many of the Wilson speakers made in the last 20 years are very easy to drive. An easy load to drive has a serious advantage- less thermal compression. A horn can be properly designed so that it has smooth response, and has controlled directivity so that early reflections from side walls won't cause harshness. The idea that only hard to drive speakers can be accurate is a topic for another thread, but also obviously false.

Ralph, did you ever listen to Emerald Physics carbon fiber series with your amps?  I imagine it would be glorious

Ralph,

What are some of the speakers that sound especially accurate and good with Atma-sphere OTL amps?  Some examples would be helpful to illustrate you're point.

I recall the sound of the AudioKinesis Jazz Modules with your S-30 amp - which sounded very accurate (don't know if it was, or not - but, it sounded like it).  

On the other hand... I think Harbeth's sound much better and more accurate with selected SS amps, which is one of the reasons why Harbeth uses amps like Hegels at shows.  

I have no idea what the engineering principals are that determine such "synergy" between the amp and speakers - but, it is "magical" when you find that combination.

Berning ZOTL amplifier apparently contradict that widely held, not always true tough, opinions about distorted sound tubes.....

I never listen to a ZOTL.... I only dream to buy one....

My post is only an invitation to read about an interesting new technology....

By the way i hate short life duration tubes with a slow degradation at a certain point in times, especially when they are very good sound, and i hate more the heating furnace of tubes amplifier....Nothing of that with the ZOTL technology tough.... Then.... I dream to have the best of the 2 worlds without their defects........

Berning is a physicist by the way.....He recreate tube tech from the beginning....And the price is not so high even for me someday....

I apologize to mimicking a marketing publicity.... But i dream a lot....And  has read a lot about that....