So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...

I found some video of the objectivists at their last meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0

All the best,
Nonoise

"Lies, damned lies, and equations."

Since when does success in any educational system equate to intelligence or overall ability?

Was a time when the U.S. was good at teaching kids how to think. Now instead of facts we have opinion and social indoctrination. Public schools of course, cant speak to private.

andy2 "I didn’t realize how an objectivist can be fooled so easily."

They are the very easiest to fool because they rely on what a meter or computer tells them ad in fact they are expert at fooling themselves as is evidenced clearly, plainly, and abundantly  by they're posts on this site. 

Look at all that chest puffing, but not an argument among the four of you. That is rather telling.

If current day scientific knowledge explains everything about sound reproduction, why do the self professed "engineers" have the very worst sounding systems? 

By 1945, our knowledge was doubling every 25 years. Today it's estimated to be doubling at around 18 months or less. If there is anything that we can be totally assured of, is that each and every so called scientific law know to man, will be proven false or woefully inadequate some time in the future. 

If you trust a measurement over your own ears, you are not terribly smart.

Note. I have not personally heard a difference in direction of a cable, but I have no reason to doubt those who claim they have. Science most certainly does not prove them wrong. 

Today it's estimated to be doubling at around 18 months or less. 

****************
This is what happens when people take information out of context and equate it with general knowledge. Did you know that this was also said, "According to IBM, the build out of  the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours."   

Knowledge in this sense simply means recorded information. I am increasing it by typing this statement.

I could just as soon argue that the specific knowledge of controlled listening testing of cables using scientific methods is doubling at a rate of once every 10 years. It takes specific actions to occur for specific knowledge to increase.

If you trust your own brain, in a sited listening test, even though physics tells you that what you perceive you are hearing is impossible, then you a self deluded, whether intelligent or not. If further measurements validates the physics and you still are trusting your perception, then are you an audiophile?

You are never trusting your ears, you are trusting your perception. There is a big difference between the two.

What is hearing but perception?

One side cant prove its point because there is no consensus on the validity of measurement. In fact there is no consensus on what you should measure. 

The other side, which I support, cant prove anything either due to the significance of the individual experience. Difference is that we are not telling you to stop measuring and to migrate to our camp. Fact is we dont care which puts us in a much more enviable position.

Just dont tell us what we hear and attribute it to soft science. Also dont tell us that there is no variability in the ability to hear.

Look at all that chest puffing, but not an argument among the four of you. That is rather telling.

Hm... interesting.  Any data from you yet?

By the way, equations are not data.

If you trust your own brain, in a sited listening test, even though physics tells you that what you perceive you are hearing is impossible, then you a self deluded, whether intelligent or not. If further measurements validates the physics and you still are trusting your perception, then are you an audiophile?

And (not so) cleverly hidden in that statement is a faulty premise. They are saying you can't hear what is being measured but not everything can be, and is being, measured.

We are not at the height of scientific achievements and, as has been already pointed out, they need better tools to measure with.

This is turning out to be a knock-off of Revenge of the Nerds.

All the best,
Nonoise

«ALL that which we hear can be measured,

If you hear something which cannot correspond to any measures,

You hear an "illusion"....»

This is a children sophism....

A children can spot the problem in the premises with the word "all"....


But an adult arrogating and monopolizing abusively the word "science" for itself can miss this elementaty mistake...

So much powerful is this other deceptive "cult" that misrepresented technology with science...And reduce reality to a misconception of  "science"....

Not everything can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted.

You can’t judge a speaker by just the freq. response graph. Same for cables.

Yes, if there are some obvious anomaly in the freq. response, then sure you can say it’s a bad speaker or cables, but within some acceptable range, measurements cannot separate the bad from the good.

The problem is 99% of the speakers or cables on the market all fall within the "acceptable range". Only listening can tell.

If you think you can measure a cable freq. distortion and can tell the good and the bad, you may as well spend your time watching paint drying.

Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured. Sighted listening is not reliable. Neither of these are in the least controversial. 

Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured

Here another sophism by our "objectivist" apprentice...


Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured, IN PRINCIPLE,
But all that can be measured NOW does not correspond NECESSARILY with what we can hear today...Or to what need to be measured to represent the audible impression...




Then some perception can escape through the limited way we measured for the time being... And perhaps for a long time indeed because all the body is a multidimensional measuring tool in a way our actual measuring  unidimensional tools are not...Ears/brain/body are ONE perceiving apparatus...

But stay calm, A.I. will figure it out with a "universal constructor machine" and you will be invited to upgrade your humanity on another level soon...I dont joke here....It comes ....

Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured.

Maybe the most naive statement in audio.  The objectivists are starting to show how gullible their reasonings are.

mahgister

Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured, IN PRINCIPLE ...

Yes, exactly.

... But all that can be measured NOW does not correspond NECESSARILY with what we can hear today...Or to what need to be measured to represent the audible impression...

Yes, exactly. But that is difficult to accept if your religion is measurementalism, hence the periodic kerfuffles here.

The ability to measure only tells a very small amount about the complexity of this process. Mahgister brings up a good point about djones in that he does seem like one of the people in the pod on The Matrix. 

Maybe the most naive statement in audio. The objectivists are starting to show how gullible their reasonings are.

There are levels of gullibilty...

--First level is : buying costly audio cables based on "quantum" marketing pretense, is a gullible act....

But even if the "quantum" explanation is a publicity hoax there exist anyway audible difference between cables, the gullibility is born then more from ignorance about more powerful upgrading factor, than from the buying of costly cables, like cheap acoustic law and devices for example....

-- Second level of gullibility is: not trusting our own cumulatively informed listening experience and experiments but relying ONLY or MAINLY to some measured numbers to buy something in audio....

-- Third level of gullibility the deepest of all gullibility is : confusing science with technology and power, and erasing reality to give technology all the place to work.... Shamans are less gullible than transhumanist...

This is "cult" and "religious" attitude without the positive basic truth behind all religion....

Everything that can be heard, can be measured...except tinnitus...and one's imagination...though tinnitus can interfere with a hearing test.

Not everything that can be measured, can be heard. 

When testing loudspeaker components/systems in my shop, particularly high frequency devices such as compression drivers, quite a few customers can't hear a sweep tone beyond 14KHz. I've had lots of older folks...especially men...that can't hear beyond 8Khz...and that's driving with 2.83V into 8 ohms.

And yes...even speakers that measure similarly can sound sound quite a bit different in their presentation of a musical image by how they're designed.

What on earth does this have to do with conductors being directional?...which they are not.

More avoidance, and obfuscation, and changing the subject. How many of you subjectivists hold public office?

Everything that can be heard, can be measured...except tinnitus...and one's imagination...though tinnitus can interfere with a hearing test.

holy mother of god, you are a persistent idiot.

Everything that can be heard, can be measured...except tinnitus...and one's imagination...though tinnitus can interfere with a hearing test.

holy mother of god, you are a persistent idiot.

I’ll even say it twice.

You are going to break the damned Dunning-Kruger meter.

Stop it.

I'll make another astonishing statement. All audio frequencies that pass through cables in a home setting as well as studios can be measured. There is no audible differences in the direction of wires unless they have been designed to be. 


Everything a human can hear can be measured, no ifs,  ands or buts. There is no equivocation,   no  in principle, it's a simple fact. Plain and simple  everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us.

Mahgister you're always babbling about A.I.,  in 100 years A.I. will be exponentially ahead of humans. Give it a rest. 

https://www.interceptinghorizons.com/post/technology-is-exponential-but-humans-are-linear

Mahgister you’re always babbling about A.I., in 100 years A.I. will be exponentially ahead of humans. Give it a rest.

https://www.interceptinghorizons.com/post/technology-is-exponential-but-humans-are-linear

First i said soon not in 100 years...

Second thanks excellent article..

Third confusing science with technology and reality with technological power is directly linked to the stupid affirmation that all what we can hear, see, touch, or think can be measured...A.I. replacing human is the next welcoming "faith"....

Cultism zealot in audio or transhumanist are near each other...

And speaking of babbling you outreach me by far with your posting...No arguments save superstitious trust in materialism instead of science precisely...

Plain and simple everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us.

I am pretty sure your brain will be unable to understand it but for example music is not just sound, but a perceived meaning through sound or in spite of the sound, that cannot be measured by a mechanical clock but can be measured by the body....Ask a maestro...

Then in the same way that music is not reducible to sound, some others perceived qualities perceived by the ears/body/brain cannot be reduced to frequencies modelling...

We do not even have a clear scientific description of pitch perception with complex frequencies modelling  this way....

And some pretend against real science playing with their toy/tools that anything we hear can be reduced to measuring gear? Any objectivist  must ask the Nobel prize for science, able to prove that.... I will vote for him if he can....

Everything a human can hear can be measured, no ifs, ands or buts. There is no equivocation,  no in principle, it's a simple fact. Plain and simple everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us.

Something tells me you don't fully understand what you wrote.

There is a difference between measuring sound pressure which anybody can measure. 

But it's difference from measuring how human perceive music.  No instrument on earth that I know of can do that.

I understand, on the other hand your comprehension is rather suspect.

I’ll help you out. Measurement of sound does not equal perception of sound. Quit putting words in my mouth. I have never mentioned perception that’s an entirely different thing.

They dont know that psychoacoustic is not psychology but a rigorous science CORRELATING two factors that cannot be reduced: one is physical acoustic for example and the other is the way the brain/body in a non computer way created the sound qualities experienced by humans...

They dont know this correlation process....They reduced psychacoustic to acoustic, like idiot reduce science to one if his subfield or to technology...

Asking  the right  question in science is more important than an answer...

 An answer can be wrong, a rightly asked question is never wrong....

Measurement of sound does not equal perception of sound.

Then why arguing about or against cable directivity?

By faith or superstition?

oups! i forget....

You claimed that all perception not reducible to measures are placebos for sure....

But wait a minute if some perception are not illusion or placebos , even being non measurable this way by a voltmeter or a frequencies meter , psychoacoustic made sense anyway....And perhaps for the cable, changing his direction is a particular "measure instruction" to experiment with by listening to it? A way to CORRELATE a physical information to an audible perception...

And perhaps cable direction made sense being an instruction to experiment with....

Then is all perception of sound reducible to known measurements or not? Say yes or no....

If like you just said measuring and listening are different why do you ridiculize those who experiment with it in the affirmative?

If cable direction caused audible differences then the measurements would vary depending on the way it was measured. If those measurements show no difference but audible differences are still claimed then listening could be used to see if there is something the measurements are not picking up.

Perception of sound happens in the brain. I know there are some instruments being used to measure things like emotional response to music but no we can't measure all aspects of human perception to sound. This thread isn't about that but measuring the physical devices carrying the signals to the reproduction of the sound waves before they hit the ear. 

edgewound : Joined Apr 17, 2021, 177 posts, Zero marketplace feedback, ergo TROLL

" If cable direction caused audible differences then the measurements would vary depending on the way it was measured."

And the day we discover the device or method that can measure the audible differences a human can discern, your comment would be correct. Until then your comment is non sequitur

For the record, I have not heard a difference in the orientation of a cable. But there is no science known to man that tells us it’s not possible. Given the overwhelming amount of individuals who have experienced the phenomenon, I’m inclined to keep an open mind.

But djones is ready to pass this audible phenomenon over to bias. Perhaps also imagination. How would you like to live in that type of world? Tidy but dismal. 

So according to his last post, he allows for a variation in how individuals hear? Could he also be allowing for a variation in the process of hearing? Is it physical/mechanical or is it chemical or both? If he allows for variation he has dug himself a very deep hole.

What a fun, enlightening thread this has become. 

Perceptions are one thing. Biased by many factors. Actual technical specs are a baseline to making a purchasing choice.

When no specs are presented by a manufacturer, I suspect vaporware.

Perceptions are one thing. Biased by many factors.

The problem is that your use of the concept of "bias" is simplistic...

A bias is not only something to be eliminated in a statistical experiment using blindstest for example, it is also a positive constitutive aspect of perception to be used and developed in a controlled user environment ...


You used this concept of bias in an ideological stance....

Actual technical specs are a baseline to making a purchasing choice.

This last affirmation made no sense for me...

For sure i want an amplifier with good specs, but among the immense crowds of those measuring well, are they equal?
No like everybody with 2 ears can know....

But djones is ready to pass this audible phenomenon over to bias. Perhaps also imagination. How would you like to live in that type of world?

I have no problem with reality. All humans have biases I'm no exception. I assume you're human? 

Actual technical specs are a baseline to making a purchasing choice.


Not all but A lot of the specs listed on product info are misleading at best.

Variation in hearing is normal, I don't hear frequencies I heard 50 years ago, do you? 

Not all but A lot of the specs listed on product info are misleading at best.

That's why it's best to get third party specs, if possible. 

Thank goodness none of the objectivists here are practicing psychologists or there'd be way too many misdiagnosed people running around, questioning their very existence, high on anti psychotic drugs.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise7,062 posts05-19-2021 3:52pmThank goodness none of the objectivists here are practicing psychologists or there’d be way too many misdiagnosed people running around, questioning their very existence, high on anti psychotic drugs.

All the best,
Nonoise


LOL...We ALL practice psychology everyday. Professional, licensed psychologists are just like every other paid profession. Some are very good...Some are not, and shouldn’t be in the profession...because they're in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

The level of debate is children schoolyard low...

Variation in hearing is normal, I don’t hear frequencies I heard 50 years ago, do you?

All there is about hearing qualities are NOT just about the range of available frequencies at some age...

I have no problem with reality. All humans have biases I’m no exception. I assume you’re human?

Another use of the concept of bias in one ideological direction: illusion or deceptive

pauly534 posts05-19-2021 2:01pm

" If cable direction caused audible differences then the measurements would vary depending on the way it was measured."

And the day we discover the device or method that can measure the audible differences a human can discern, your comment would be correct. Until then your comment is non sequitur

For the record, I have not heard a difference in the orientation of a cable. But there is no science known to man that tells us it’s not possible. Given the overwhelming amount of individuals who have experienced the phenomenon, I’m inclined to keep an open mind.

Keeping an open mind should be easy for you, since you lack grey matter. Plenty of empty space to fill up.

I got your troll right here, pal. 

because they’re in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

Your vision of the world mimic the one of self appointed crusader or a paranoical one...

The number of psychologists which practise from the beginning for MONEY is not the majority at all.... Why? because if the money is your principal motivation you dont study psychology to begin with...

And manipulating the needy is more easy in law profession and political one.... Or big corporation....Instead of field day to day clinical psychology...

Your analysis is a projection of your own motivation perhaps or experience with a psychologist you antagonized?



Anyway your observation is completely "irrational"....

By the way most cables manufacturers are no more no less thiefs than usual commercial companies... If you think otherwise you are very inexperimented in life experience to say the least...

And answering to a perfectly logical argument like in the preceding post by an insult is more an indication of your own mental state than a description of the antagonized poster you answered to....

I am not a psychologist by the way..... But even a children can analyse your answer illogical rant....

Then i must conclude that your thread is NOT a truthful question but only a question to provoke antagonisn.... You owned already the truth and you are not interested to look for it...On the contrary you have fun mocking people  of so called " poor" understanding....It is not a sign of high level intelligence sorry...

LOL...We ALL practice psychology everyday. Professional, licensed psychologists are just like every other paid profession. Some are very good...Some are not, and shouldn’t be in the profession...because they're in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

Some of those very good psychologists you seem to have "scientifically" qualified with that statement would have a field day with you. Maybe even write a thesis on their time interviewing you.

But wait, would you demand a double blind interview, with you and a ringer behind a curtain, speaking through some form of Autotune to mask your voices so as to sound the same?

All the best,
Nonoise 

Here is an concrete example why if you believe in equation, you're can be so wrong.  Let's take an example of silver vs. copper.  We all know silver sounds brighter compared to copper.  But it's not so obvious if you believe in the equation.  See below for the DC resistance of silver and copper which is a mere 2ohm per 1000 ft for 24-gauge.  For a typical 6ft speaker cables, the resistance difference is a miniscule .012 ohm.  For thicker 12AWG wire, that difference may even be smaller.  The objectivists looking at the equation would state that 0.012 ohm is well below the threshold of human hearing.  But it's not that simple since we can all hear the difference in silver vs. copper.

But here a curve ball.  I build my own speaker.  Now if I use a 2.0Ohm resistor on my tweeter, or a 2.012ohm I probably won't be able to hear a difference.  Why is that?  To be honest, I don't know.  But I can clearly hear the difference between silver vs. copper.

OK, now you may say skin affect is what makes a difference.  But if you use Maxwell equation to solve for skin affect, at 20KHz, the difference between silver vs. copper  going to be even more miniscule.  Objectively skin affect should only affect RF frequency.  Looking at the equation you will conclude that it's all below the threshold of human hearing.  But again we can all hear difference in silver vs. copper.

You see how the objectivists can be fooled if all they look at is the equation.  That's why they believe in these so called "measurement website".  They look at thing at only one dimension and make their own conclusion.  But there too many variables.  Too many that can be counted.

Silver and copper are the two most conductive metals known to mankind, with gold following behind in third place. The conductivity of silver clocks in at 63 x 10^6 siemens/meter, roughly seven percent higher than the conductivity of annealed copper, which stands at 59 x 10^6 siemens/meter. Measured in ohms, the difference in the resistance (the amount of electricity lost as a current travels from point A to point B through a material) of 24-gauge, 1000-foot-long silver and copper wire is minor. The resistance of the copper wire is a mere 2 ohms higher.

We all know silver sounds brighter compared to copper.  

That's as far as I got. You're beginning with an unverified premise. Where's the evidence silver sounds "brighter" than copper? What does "brighter" mean and how is it quantified? 

mahgister5,534 posts05-19-2021 4:31pm

because they’re in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

Your vision of the world mimic the one of self appointed crusader or a paranoical one...

The number of psychologists which practise from the beginning for MONEY is not the majority at all.... Why? because if the money is your principal motivation you dont study psychology to begin with...

And manipulating the needy is more easy in law profession and political one.... Or big corporation....Instead of field day to day clinical psychology...

Your analysis is a projection of your own motivation perhaps or experience with a psychologist you antagonized?



Anyway your observation is completely "irrational"....

By the way most cables manufacturers are no more no less thiefs than usual commercial companies... If you think otherwise you are very inexperimented in life experience to say the least...

And answering to a perfectly logical argument like in the preceding post by an insult is more an indication of your own mental state than a description of the antagonized poster you answered to....

I am not a psychologist by the way..... But even a children can analyse your answer illogical rant....

Then i must conclude that your thread is NOT a truthful question but only a question to provoke antagonisn.... You owned already the truth and you are not interested to look for it...On the contrary you have fun mocking people of so called " poor" understanding....It is not a sign of high level intelligence sorry...

Nice attempt to cherry pick from my comments to bolster your rambling incoherent ramble. I said "some"...not "all". And...I'm old enough to have had enough life experience to know shysters when I see them. 

We won't get into levels of intelligence...nor failings at your written prose. Maybe English is not your first language, but you shouldn't lecture if you can't get coherent thoughts across. Deal?