So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
I agree, edgewound is either completely clueless or he is simply stirring the pot. It indicates to me a complete lack of understanding regarding the fundamentals of sound and the more sublime aspects of reproduction. Pearls before swine.
I think it will be hard for djones to come back from "met the requirements". So telling of a particular thought process that apparently is hard to shake.
The streamer met the requirements I was looking for. I could have assembled a cheaper alternative but I didn't want to bother with getting the AES3 board from France which is the only place I could find one. I listened to 5 different streamers I could tell no difference in sound so I bought the one I liked. It was a subjective decision.
I admit I never tried reversing the ethernet cable or AES3 cables. Perhaps that would have clinched the deal for a more expensive streamer.
So telling of a particular thought process that apparently is hard to shake.
It's easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence.
Yep...I’m clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow.
Save for some "snake oil" products on the market the other ignorant marketing ploy is reducing audio experience to pure new upgrading electronical design who measure better fort sure.... 😁
ACOUSTIC is the fundamental fact my dear.... NOT the signals....
Any relatively good gear can convey signals in a relative acceptable way... It is easy to buy some "good" gear able to convey "signals" relatively well....
But the misinformation of most audiophiles and "objectivists" heads ESPECIALLY is about the ignorance of the huge importance of acoustic and ESPECIALLY about psychoacoustic ... The "measuring better new highly priced design" is a DECEPTION of his own also and insisting on it, instead of pointing to acoustic importance, is an half truth worst than a lie........And reducing audio qualities to measures participate of this MARKETING general delusion...
Eat your signals....
My 500 bucks system convey very well the signals....
By the way each of my ear listen not to "signals" BUT to the first wavefront coming from my controlled room and my ears/brain recreate all aspects of sound experience with the 2 different message of my ears....All my room is a distributed set of pressure zones marked out for making easier the brain job....
I trust my ears not your "measured signals"...
If you have study electronic engineering now begin to study psychoacoustic....But beware acoustian USE their ears...You will be obliged to change your tune and stop insulting people....
It’s easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence.
The problem you dont seems aware at all and the vicious circle where you put yourself in, like someone painting himself in a corner, is that the first and last evidence in audio are AUDIBLE experience WITH your ears.... Measures process and written evidence with numbers are in between....
Think few seconds to understand why this is so.... If you cannot you are out of any help....
edgewound"I'm clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow."
Yes it could be that people are gullible and unable to comprehend the basic, fundamental operative variables that influence audio and signal flow. They do not know how to listen, what to listen for, or how to avoid being deluded, insane and so porfoundly ignorant as to border on stupid. Yes that is "possible!!"
It is also possible that you are nothing but a troll but reading you're posts I think that you are really just consumed with you're own self, impressed with your knowledge, wisdom, powers of analysis, acute perception, infallible logic, penetrating powerful intellect, piercing comprehension and an unfailing, unlfinching, unbending urge to impress others so that they'll be as impressed with you as you are with yourself.
Read up on the Genelec stuff and it is all active powered by Class D. I have found the only use for Class D, from listening, is as a woofer amp. I also notice a metal dome tweeter also something that traditionally I dont like. But, you never know. I actually like the idea of active speakers provided they use very good amplification. Certainly not much cheaper than the high end audio stuff even with internal amplification.
The benefit of active monitors like these Genelecs is internally triamped and amps matched to drivers. I’m not a fan of active subs in theory because of heat and vibration shorten amp life.
Years ago at CES I hear an active German speaker 4 way with early class D probably ICE modules that sounded much better than it should have and so much better I would guess than it would have if this design was passive. I also always favored the active ATC speakers and never liked their passive designs. These experiences have stayed with me many years later and have served as a model of the viability of active speakers.
Might have been Geithain speakers. Everything I've read about them they are incredible speakers, cartoid down into the bass. You don't hear much about them outside of Europe. I believe they sell direct in the US but you get no support.
Yeah those active ATC ones are tres nice ain’t they.....really surprised how much better they were than their non-active kin, which until I heard the active ones thought they were pretty good...
It’s easy to hear, conductors in a cable have a directional effect on the sound. In fact you’d either have to be deaf, have a horribly set up stereo, or an insurmountable expectation bias not to hear the difference.
Ted Denney Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.
andy21,333 posts05-24-2021 4:48pmIf you hear a difference but your measurement instruments are saying no difference, then there is something wrong with the way you measure.
You don't go to your doctor to have your ears checked. That would be a bit odd. I don't know of anyone who would come to this conclusion.
Just curious...What does a doctor know about hearing?
I don't know of anyone who would come to the conclusion that a doctor would not check one's hearing?
ted_denney21 posts05-24-2021 9:07pmIt’s easy to hear, conductors in a cable have a directional effect on the sound. In fact you’d either have to be deaf, have a horribly set up stereo, or an insurmountable expectation bias not to hear the difference.
Ted Denney Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.
Leave it to Ted to come up with a response that prebiases any expectation bias response.
Explain how and why the cable is directional, how the energy propagates through the conductor, and do you listen to each strand of conductor in each multiconductor cable assembly to determine which direction the cable should be oriented? and...What are the electrical parameters of these analog filters that you create?
So if they are marked with arrow, you are going to install then backwards? Not me, I'll install based on the arrows and be happy. Whether I hear it or not, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. 😜
Why should anyone explain anything to you? You havent earned the right. What good would it do!
carlsbad,
I always heard that the directionality of a passive cable is due to the direction it comes off the spool. Not saying I agree with this, but just saying.
Physicist here, late to the party. For those of you married to the idea that cables are directional, please explain to me how a cable is manufactured to be directional. In other words, what does the manufacturer do to impart the directionality into the cable?
I’ll wait.
--Jerry
well, first a physicist would inquire about the ’observation’, and if after much thinking and much assessment..... that if the observation cannot be dismissed, then look into why a cable might be heard as being directional.
To go after the observation alone (if one decided to do so) as the equation (equation = the observation awaiting an answer) does not seem to have a easy answer.... is to have one’s physics pants on backward.
If you are indeed the physicist, then you figure it out.
If the physicist decides to delete the observation that has literally been heard a million times or more, well that would not be science. That would a mis-trained physicist. Someone not worthy of the degree. Or someone pretending to be one on a forum.
To ask us to prove a complex question/answer set... is to ask us to do the job that a physicist is possibly more well equipped to do. Or should be. If not (not properly trained or not doing this correctly).....possibly even attempting to move the equation out of the science realm...and subtly cast it as emotional-political, all while pretending to be science.
It’s ok, I’ll wait.
OK, changed my mind. I won't wait: A real and actual physicist would never have said what was in the post I quoted. not going to happen. If it did, then the physicist very likely needs to be reprimanded or stripped of their papers.
When is someone's dad gonna chime in and yell, knock it off already. So tired of all the engineers, experts, physicists, and wanna be gurus. Where's dad when you need him?
Why should anyone explain anything to you? You havent earned the right. What good would it do!
carlsbad,
I always heard that the directionality of a passive cable is due to the direction it comes off the spool. Not saying I agree with this, but just saying.
I've earned plenty. Your frat boy mentality and demeanor is pretty entertaining, though.
Your second statement, here, is evidence that you're not in agreement with cable directionality.
boxer126,510 posts05-25-2021 5:10pmedgewhatever, As stated in the first word of my post... My very cordial & friendly response was to Jerry (the fake physicist), not you.
Your "cordial and friendly" response to Jerry (the fake physicist) is evidence that you don't even understand the premise on my OP. Your explanation was inaccurate to the subject matter. Many posters on this thread didn't bother to comprehend the entire premise, and steered the subject to floating, single ended shields. Some don't even understand how that's done in practice....but mansplain what they don't know anyway....like you do.
We all have the ability to remove our own post OP. It's not the mods it's self deletion.. If not, someone learned what the "Report" button was. It's not what's it's for but.. Some think it's right to silence other.
You know just like you.. You think you have all the answers.. Reality just a Johnny come lately trying to get a rise.. You'll be gone soon enough.
You'll get back on your meds and all will be well again for you, until. the cable conspirators show up in your HEAD again..
If you don't know your right from your left or in this case UP from DOWN, you'll learn.. nature will teach you..
I refer to simple logic, LOOK at the bare WIRE.
Get a microscope and LOOK at the cable.. Tell me there is not a direction and how it was put through a dye.. Your asking if it's directional?
How was it made? From the beginning or the END? YOU answer the question?
The question for many, does it SOUND different? Some cable a lot more so than others..
We had a few poster here say they would sneak this "FUSE" in and swap direction on their buddies cables and SEE if they could tell the difference..
ALL LIES.. No one would let anyone mess with their system.. NO ONE..
Especially someone with high dollar cabling or equipment. Total BS..
So OP.. welcome to AG.. for how ever long that last..
Care to speculate on that?
We need to start a Lottery.. See how long you last before a retreat and then a NEW resurrection with a whole new name..
It's a frat boy thing around here. Groupthink. BTW...I'm not the only one around here that is a skeptic of uber expensive cables. I have said there are good cables and bad cables. No cable is worth $10,000. No cable is worth four figures for a few feet. If that's what you wanna spend on cables, knock yourself out.
And...I didn't remove my own post...some snowflake did...and the Report button has gone missing from mine....and your paranoia that I will show up under another moniker is pretty funny.
What you fail to recognize, understand, and comprehend is that for some people $10,000 USD would be not a lot of money it would be an expense they could easily absorb that may be difficult for you to accept if you are watching your dad work two jobs just to pay the rent but for some others it would not be a big deal and you can not say it is not worth it to them you can only say it is not worth it to you. If your father or parent(s) guardians are struggling to meet family expenses which is what it sounds like it is of course hard for you to understand why some others could or would spend that kind of money for cables.
Without meaning to be rude, impolite, or disrespectful to you if cables such as this bother you another group might be better ask your dad to help you find one. In the US Scouting is a very popular activity for youth and it might be good for you too!
clearthink1,233 posts05-27-2021 1:53pm edgewound"No cable is worth $10,000."
What you fail to recognize, understand, and comprehend is that for some people $10,000 USD would be not a lot of money it would be an expense they could easily absorb that may be difficult for you to accept if you are watching your dad work two jobs just to pay the rent but for some others it would not be a big deal and you can not say it is not worth it to them you can only say it is not worth it to you. If your father or parent(s) guardians are struggling to meet family expenses which is what it sounds like it is of course hard for you to understand why some others could or would spend that kind of money for cables.
Without meaning to be rude, impolite, or disrespectful to you if cables such as this bother you another group might be better ask your dad to help you find one. In the US Scouting is a very popular activity for youth and it might be good for you too!
I recognize everything about you, just from this post. Alan Parsons wrote a song exactly about you. Be very careful...Karma is watching.
Why do some retorts always fall back on the costs of uber expensive cables when it's not brought up to begin with? That belies a lot angst on the part of some.
As for the "report button" alluded to, it doesn't disappear. Just move your cursor over to where it resides (lower right hand corner) and it will appear, like Tinker Bell, and pressing it will reward you with untold powers to silence those you disagree with.
Why would I want to silence those I disagree with?...and vice versa? Discussions are supposed to be an exchange of ideas.
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
I don’t care what you spend your money on, I simply want manufacturers to prove their claims are a physical attribute and not psychological. Speaker systems and amplifiers can change their sound daily based on ambient temperature, humidity, and how much air is in a room at any given moment. Ears also change response based on how long one has been listening and at what SPL. Show me where a cable... an esoteric cable manufacturer discloses these things.
BTW...thanks for the "Report" tip. I’ve seen it before but failed to remember about the cursor.
Since it is " at any given moment" we can rule out altitude issues. Then we have to assume that air pressure changes over a given moment are at play and that would require air movement. So, any thoughts about how the direction of the air flow would affect the sound ? ( you know, as it moves in and out of the room ).
OP if your version of "Frat boy" is a LOT of us agree cables sound different, you’re right. If you install them one way and there are NO ARROWS and then install it the other way and DO or DON’T hear a difference, what camp does that put someone in?
Like a few poster here believe in bundles of cables, others mix and match, others zip cord.
I don’t think there are TWO camps, I think there are several different ideas, and not all will pass scrutiny. The neat part is it (how it sounds or doesn’t) can be ignored by ME or YOU. Still doesn’t change the fact someone has a better sounding system even though you or I can’t hear the difference that others can.
When two people have the exact same boxes, ALL the same. The room, the preamp, the amp, the speaker boxes, EVERYTHING is the same and the only difference is cabling.. That is an eye opener. That is what changed my mind 40 years ago on "different", cables sound different ways..
I truly think the biggest issue is not direction (I thought that was figured out 30 years ago) per say but SIZE. Bigger is not better, but it sure will do damage because of WEIGHT and size..
I’ve seen more than a few systems sound BAD behind BIG PC and oversized speaker ICs. Direction is a bonus and pays dividends in the construction of cables right on down to how you coil up a cable when IN use or NOT.
I suppose static discharge/drop and flop cabling sounds as good a carefully routed, pre coiled, pre conditioned, terminal end treated (with contact enhancer) cabling..
I really thought "Cable Direction" was a 30 year OLD topic.
Are there 20K speaker cables? Only if someone else pays for them.. Not ME..
I just looked at a 15K piece of stained glass that someone else commissioned to be made.. NOT ME!! I'm a 300.00 kind of guy and get out the soldering iron and glass cutter.. :-)
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
uh, sorry to inform you but intermixing harmonics and their result in how they are handled at the ear, deals with an expression in ultrahigh frequencies and down to the bottom. Basically dc to light speed kind of frequency response requirement, in audio cables. with zero problems in any area and zero preload (or load of the microsecond moment in play) interference in any slew up or slew down of any kind of complex load.
audio cables are easily seen and explained as the most complex signals that are dealt with in the world of electronics and signal transfer. easily. I’ll say it again. Easily.
When this was explained to a person who works at the peak of telecommunications industry and deals with the physics of various forms of transmission, they ended up agreeing. This is a person, btw..that basically has their masters in the physics of signal transmission.
Audio covers more octaves than ANY other kind of signal and it does it right from DC and on up. It is a hellaciously complex and wideband signal. It is the only one that has such extreme range, and it continually goes through the skin effect region in all of it’s complexities, overall. The interactions with the dynamic aspects of the impedance and the entire reactive and interactive aspects of the fundamental physics of a transmission line, are off the scale, compared to all other signals.
Audio is the ultimate stress test of an electrically based transmission line.
So, please, get a grip. Go talk to an expert if you can’t figure it out. Get educated.
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
uh, sorry to inform you but intermixing harmonics and their result in how they are handled at the ear, deals with an expression in ultrahigh frequencies across a basically dc to light speed kind of frequency response requirement, in audio cables. audio cables are easily seen and explained as the most complex signals that are dealt with in the world of electronics and signal transfer. easily. I’ll say it again. Easily.
When this was explained to a person who works at the peak of telecommunications industry and deals with the physics of various forms of transmission, they ended up agreeing. This is a person, btw..that basically has their masters in the physics of signal transmission. So, please, get a grip. Go talk to an expert if you can’t figure it out. Get educated.
Show me your evidence. Don’t tell me. I have friend that’s a PhD in physics. Experts in science require evidence. So far, you’ve provided none to the discussion.
oldhvymec2,960 posts05-27-2021 2:41pmOP if your version of "Frat boy" is a LOT of us agree cables sound different, you’re right. If you install them one way and there are NO ARROWS and then install it the other way and DO or DON’T hear a difference, what camp does that put someone in?
Like a few poster here believe in bundles of cables, others mix and match, others zip cord.
I don’t think there are TWO camps, I think there are several different ideas, and not all will pass scrutiny. The neat part is it (how it sounds or doesn’t) can be ignored by ME or YOU. Still doesn’t change the fact someone has a better sounding system even though you or I can’t hear the difference that others can.
When two people have the exact same boxes, ALL the same. The room, the preamp, the amp, the speaker boxes, EVERYTHING is the same and the only difference is cabling.. That is an eye opener. That is what changed my mind 40 years ago on "different", cables sound different ways..
I truly think the biggest issue is not direction (I thought that was figured out 30 years ago) per say but SIZE. Bigger is not better, but it sure will do damage because of WEIGHT and size..
I’ve seen more than a few systems sound BAD behind BIG PC and oversized speaker ICs. Direction is a bonus and pays dividends in the construction of cables right on down to how you coil up a cable when IN use or NOT.
I suppose static discharge/drop and flop cabling sounds as good a carefully routed, pre coiled, pre conditioned, terminal end treated (with contact enhancer) cabling..
I really thought "Cable Direction" was a 30 year OLD topic.
Are there 20K speaker cables? Only if someone else pays for them.. Not ME..
I just looked at a 15K piece of stained glass that someone else commissioned to be made.. NOT ME!! I'm a 300.00 kind of guy and get out the soldering iron and glass cutter.. :-)
Amazing!
I've recently seen speaker cables advertised from a manufacturer that are $30K for an 8 foot pair.
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