So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...

In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.

It the blue corner, we have the professional subjectivists, supported by a loud rancorous crowd. They have also brought their top level high school physics game, but have been working extra hard on their irrelevance game.

The bell will ring in 30 seconds. We expect lots of action, lots of slapping, but few blows being landed in this seemingly never ending fight. There appears to be a lack of interest in knowing what is going on in either side, so this is likely to go the full 15 rounds.

Get your popcorn ready, it is going to be entertaining.

"You must be new around these parts. What you're describing, as if for the first time, has been going on for way too many years. Nothing about any of these discussions is new- just the latest crop of objectivists raising old arguments."


I am very much not new to audio. This is not an objectivist/subjectivist thing. I was very much make fun of both. Anyone who uses those terms in a serious manner is not an audiophile, but they want everyone else to think they are. This had been going on a long time.  It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.

I would suggest leaving the quotes to others. It is not your forte. Sartre’s quote has valuable meaning. Your’s not so much. Sartre’s is about doers and non doers. It’s about people who gets things done. Yours pretty much advocates conformity whether you intended or not. In the world, it’s the people who rock the boat that make change happen. They are willing to stand out. If you are competent that is not a fault and often essential to generate change. It takes confidence and courage.

The popcorn is excellent. I have my own machine in the audio and theater room. You take yourself too seriously. People outside this hobby would look at this thread and wonder what is wrong with the people. There are two or three threads about why no young audiophiles and few female audiophiles. This thread is a clear answer to that question.

"Only the guy who isn’t rowing has time to rock the boat."


Best when quoting to get the quote correct. Used correctly it is an apt quote.

andy21,300 posts05-17-2021 1:07pmA lot of the so called "objectivists" believe in some of the so called "measurement websites". They measure some frequency responses, some basic distortions and make some wild claims that nobody cares to check.  

It's funny how these "objectivists" are taken for a ride and they just blindly believe without even questioning about the validity of these so called "measurements". How funny as they are being duped.  

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On my third order of popcorn, movie style of course. The subjectivists are pulling out their heavy hitting, well frankly I am not sure what to call this. Measurements are repeatable. The test methodologies can be documents so that others can recreate the experiment.  Come on now, you are not even trying with this post.

Penalty, 10 yards, for poor effort.

nonoise7,051 posts05-17-2021 1:56pmAll it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.

Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?


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Did Galen Gareis qualify what he meant by accurate?  $500 may be enough for many things. Test equipment that is $8,000 from a Western supplier may be $2,000 from an Asian supplier. Then there is EBAY.  On ASR I am surprised by how sophisticated many people's home test benches are. Far better than almost all cable vendors.  That is marketing speak by Galen. It impresses his target audience, and is obviously successful

Can you please explain Galen's expertise on audio or audio equipment. I do not think he has any other than being a hobbyist, and he does not even have relevant design experience. All we are going on is his word it sounds better. That is not very objective at all.  Seems all you need to be an expert is to claim you can hear things. Galen does have a lot in common with a lot of people posting here.  

Time for more popcorn!

nonoise7,052 posts05-17-2021 2:49pmSo now you're back pedaling on what constitutes the cost of the cheaper test equipment? That maybe they're all created equal and is just price exchange of different countries. Right......

As for ASR, it's been ridiculed for how they measure and costs of it's test equipment by other test measuring sites. Surely you've know that for awhile. As for Gabriel Galen's expertise, you've got so much to learn. Just a hobbyist? Try google.

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The Klippel speaker measuring equipment they use is absolutely state of the art.  The headphone testing system is similarly very high end. The Audio Precision gear is not the very latest and greatest, but it still reveals issues in what should be state of the art products.

I would have to pedal forward to back peddle. Galen made an unqualified off the cuff comment. Their $80K unit was at Belden, and would be for very high frequency cables. He makes no justification for that cost or precision requirement for audio. Even $8K he has not justified. A quick search shows $10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz. No need for that level of accuracy. At audio frequencies and well beyond, a signal generator, scope, and precision resistor and I can measure within a % or 2. I can even get pretty close on characteristic impedance. That's $1-2K.  That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.

It has not been called HP for 22 years. One of the best HP LCR meter for 20Hz - 300Khz is <$5,000 now. Times have changed.  I can find equivalent or better specs from a tier 2 for 1/2 that.

You made a comment about people claiming to be experts, but you are quoting someone without the expertise to know if what they said is accurate or relevant.

If you don't know the relevance of 0.05% measurement accuracy to the measurement (or design) of audio equipment, you could just say so instead of trying to make it look like the fault of someone else.  A high school drop out would probably admit he or she does not know.

That is 0.004db as a level difference. At 20KHz, it is a frequency shift in a filter of 10Hz. You could just say I don't understand the relevance of 0.05% measurement error. 

Agilent is now Keysight for test instruments.

andy21,301 posts05-17-2021 4:51pmIn my day job, we wouldn’t trust any equipment. We actually have to characterize equipment to make sure they measure what they advertise.

Apparently, some here just google up some equipment and think they are good enough.

$10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz

I suppose some people have the data to back up 0.05% is good enough to measure human hearing. I don’t, but if you post something, you need to back up your claims.

That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.

Again, a statement without evidence or proof.

Interesting how some can so readily believe in what they search on google. :-)


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If you are unfamiliar with a topic, i.e. electronics manufacturing, then it is best to not comment. Nothing in audio is controlled to 0.05%. Not at the time of manufacturing, not over time, and not over temperature.  With a cable, the impact would be volume (resistance, 0.05% is inaudible), or a filter frequency (0.05% is inaudible). 

So yes, 0.05% is more than good enough for human hearing, or any practical manufacturing process.

Hey, I think even Ted draws the line at claiming 7 nines silver (or copper). About the only people "claiming" to be drawing wire at that purity is "no-name" vendors out of China, all targeting audio of course. Good luck getting a test report after wire drawing that verifies the purity (or heck, even before). 

It is sad and unfortunate that someone without success in the American educational system feels the need to insult someone not educated in the American educational system, with significantly more accomplishments by making up lies, suppositions and innuendo. It is neither mature, intelligent, not funny to do this and whining to a moderator is not an indication of maturity, but an indication of an inability to behave as an adult in public.

Look at all that chest puffing, but not an argument among the four of you. That is rather telling.

Today it's estimated to be doubling at around 18 months or less. 

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This is what happens when people take information out of context and equate it with general knowledge. Did you know that this was also said, "According to IBM, the build out of  the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours."   

Knowledge in this sense simply means recorded information. I am increasing it by typing this statement.

I could just as soon argue that the specific knowledge of controlled listening testing of cables using scientific methods is doubling at a rate of once every 10 years. It takes specific actions to occur for specific knowledge to increase.

If you trust your own brain, in a sited listening test, even though physics tells you that what you perceive you are hearing is impossible, then you a self deluded, whether intelligent or not. If further measurements validates the physics and you still are trusting your perception, then are you an audiophile?

You are never trusting your ears, you are trusting your perception. There is a big difference between the two.