So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...

Ohhh. Raw nerves exposed of the anti-reality bunch. 

A new non-mortal pseudonym has joined the fray to hurl bricks at everyone.

Welcome Geoffrey!

The target audience is audio Professionals. Higher ground than audiophiles. Audio Professionals trickle down to audiophiles.

dekay3,644 posts05-13-2021 9:55amQ: What did the edgewound resistor say to the capacitor?

A: Watt’s up.

DeKay

🤣Sounds like current events. VI=P

rodman999994,979 posts05-13-2021 9:09amIf ignorance is bliss, those unfamiliar with the nature of science must be experiencing Nirvana. They simply CAN’T grasp, there there exists more than one THEORY, concerning electricity and that THEORIES don’t prove anything. Try a little update there, at least to the 20th Century’s science, Sparky!                                                                           ie: https://www.quora.com/Are-photons-involved-in-all-forms-of-electricity-for-example-when-it-flows-thr...    and:  https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=2348                                                                                                                                                   You can argue, whine and moan amongst yourselves, as I find your incessant/willful ignorance tedious and a waste of keystrokes.

You have gone totally off the rails thinking that any of this has to do with analog audio frequencies in a wire. It doesn't. 

millercarbon9,143 posts05-13-2021 10:33amLet us just say for the sake of argument that you take a look down the street and the car parked a mile away seems to be moving around. Some people look and say no it is so far away I can hardly even tell it is a car. Others look and say not only is it moving around but it is changing shape as I look at it.

You cannot settle this argument so you enlist a physicist. The physicist explains in no uncertain terms the bonds in metal make it far too rigid to possibly be changing shape. The mass of the car and gravity mean it cannot ever just rise and float above the road. It is impossible. You are imagining. It is all in your head. Someone is selling you snake oil.

Until a physicist specializing in atmospheric research comes along and says well look, this is all perfectly understandable. The sun heats the road, the warm air rises in currents. Warm air is less dense and so light passing through it is refracted, bent. This perfectly explains what you are seeing.

This has zero to do with electric current at audio frequencies in a wire. But...it’s typical of overhyped, theoretical fantasies of mind theater interconnects. How does it look to a blind person?

Your analogy is completely irrelevant. Not surprising...at all.

yogiboy3,973 posts05-13-2021 1:09pmFrom Chord!
Almost all speaker cables, in fact almost all audio cables, be they for digital or analogue are, in our experience, directional in that the sound will be better with the cable connected in a specific direction. Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal.

Especially if the cable is outfitted with male and female connectors at each end. Low impedance mic cables and balanced interconnects come to mind...because that is required to actually connect the cables. For unbalanced coaxial style cables grounded at each end, with the same type of connector at each end, the direction does not matter. Speaker cables terminated with different connectors at each end are obviously directional as to how it's connected. Bare wire...does not matter. 

Science does not exist to prove or disprove human experience. Science is nothing more than a method that is has been proven to be the most reliable one for eventually figuring out how the world works.

Please do try and keep these different ideas separate and clear in your mind. If you can just manage to do this one thing it will be amazing how much more clear your understanding of so many things will become over time. Not now, maybe not tomorrow, but gradually over time.

@millercarbon

Welcome to your Grand Delusion.

andy21,290 posts05-13-2021 5:24pm

It’s just not true...especially for AC. The AC current travels in both directions. Here’s an easy explanation.

Wrong. AC current travels in one direction. Look up Poynting vector. We’ve been through this. You’re a bit late to the party.

The link you provided is like high-school level for those who can’t get past first year college.

You’re also convoluting the discussion of which direction the current should flow through the conductor...which is also not true. It’s the purity that matters more than the direction it was drawn...which is zero.

Reverse the leads at the speaker and the drivers change direction based on the polarity of the charged magnets. The AC pulses back and forth. 

nonoise7,023 posts05-13-2021 4:51pmThat's rich coming from a guy who's avatar looks like he should walking with a seeing eye dog.

...and I bet Stevie Wonder can hear better than you.

andy21,286 posts05-13-2021 2:52pmKind of funny the RF folks now are criticizing about cable directional. RF folks are known for their measurements so they have to live and die by it.
If you insist on measurement, you got to put up or shut up.

In RF, there is something called "insertion loss" or RF people would call it "SD21" or "SD12". SD21 is the insertion loss in one direction whereas SD12 is insertion loss in the other direction. And these are never the same especially in RF. You measure insertion loss in one direction, then the other direction, and the results are close but never the same.

Also if RF folks also are making fun of cable lifters, remember that RF cables are very sensitive to the cable bending. If you bend the cable just slightly, your SD21 will change. Expensive RF cables are less sensitive but they all are.  

You see, there a lot of these voodoo scientists ... errr... I meant "objectivist". They keep pounding on the word "measurements", but they themselves can't withstand close scrutiny. A lot of these people are using the word "measurement" as a mean to an agenda but a lot of them don't know what they are talking about.



RF and audio spectrums are completely different. CAT cables operate in megahertz with the twisted pairs needing to be in sweeping bends so as not to cause interference/crosstalk with the delivery of digital data packets. Completely different signal delivery system than analog AC current signal.

andy21,290 posts05-13-2021 5:24pm

It's just not true...especially for AC. The AC current travels in both directions. Here's an easy explanation.

Wrong. AC current travels in one direction. Look up Poynting vector. We've been through this. You're a bit late to the party.

The link you provided is like high-school level for those who can't get past first year college.

Watch this animation. The vector moves in one direction. The current does not...hence Alternating Current. Like turning the pedals on a bicycle.


https://brilliant.org/wiki/poynting-vector/

So....now it's being said the current doesn't flow through the conductor, but the spaces between the conductors. How a bout solid conductors? What happens when you take away the conductor?

Keep in mind that the discussion is about audio frequencies. Not RF, radar, microwave...

speakermaster382 posts05-13-2021 4:58pmThe reason that some manufacturers put the arrow on the wire is because they made the wire and know which way the copper was drawn through the dies when it was manufactured the other manufacturers listen for best sound but i can understand how the sound would be better in the direction the copper was drawn out it is the best explanation i have ever heard about this.

It's just not true...especially for AC. The AC current travels in both directions. Here's an easy explanation. Next time you have a burning question for a high-end cable manufacturer, present them with this:

https://www.dummies.com/education/science/science-electronics/electronics-basics-direct-and-alternat...

Skin effect?

Not at audio frequencies.

jea483,581 posts05-14-2021 6:24am@ edgewound


The signal does not flow in the wire. The signal energy flows through the space between the wires in the form of an electromagnetic wave.

The signal energy does not travel back and forth as it moves at near the speed of light (in a vacuum) from the source to the load. The signal energy electromagnetic wave moves in one direction from the source to the load.

Here is some reading material for you.

" The quick answer

Inside the wires, the "something" moves very, very slowly, almost as slowly as the minute hand on a clock. Electric current is like slowly flowing water inside a hose. Very slow, so perhaps a flow of syrup. Even maple syrup moves too fast, so that's not a good analogy. Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don't move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate. Energy can only flow rapidly in an electric circuit because metals are already filled with this "putty." If we push on one end of a column of putty, the far end moves almost instantly. Energy flows fast, yet an electric current is a very slow flow.

The complicated answer

Within all metals there is a substance which can move. This stuff has several different names: the Sea of Charge, or the Electron Sea, or the Electron Gas, or "charge." We often call it "electricity," and state that electric currents are flows of electricity. Calling it "electricity" can be misleading because many people believe that electricity is a form of energy, yet charge is not energy, and currents are not flows of energy. Also it can be misleading because the Sea of Charge exists within in all metal objects, all the time, even when the metal hasn't been made into a wire and is not part of an electric device. If the Electron Sea is "electricity," then we must say that all metals are always full of electricity, and that batteries are simply electricity-pumps. Better to call it by the name "charge-sea," and avoid the misleading word "electricity" entirely.

During an electric current, the metal wire stays still and the sea of charge flows along through it. When the flashlight switch is turned off and the lightbulb goes dark, the charge-sea stops moving forward. Even though it stops moving, the charge-sea is still inside of that wire. If the flashlight is again turned on, but then two light bulbs are connected in parallel instead of one, the electric current will have twice as large a value, and twice as much light will be created. And most important, the charge-sea within the battery's wires will flow twice as fast. In other words, the speed of the charges is proportional to the value of electric current; small current means slow charge-flow, large current means high speed. Zero current means the charges have stopped in place. Note however that an electric current does not have just one speed within any circuit. Charges speed up whenever they flow into a thinner wire. The high current in a large flash-lantern's lightbulb will be much faster than the same current in the other conductors in the lantern. Even though an electric current is a very slow flow of charges, we can't know the actual speed of flow unless first we know the thickness of the wires, as well as the *value* (the amperes) of the current in the wires.

If a thin wire is connected in a circuit end to end with a thick wire, it turns out that the charges in the thin wire move faster. This makes sense: it works just like water in rivers. If a huge wide river moves into a narrow channel, the water speeds up. When the channel opens out again downstream, the river slows down again. The electric current inside a very thin wire will be tend to be fast, even if the value of current is fairly low. This means that we can't know the speed of the flowing charge-sea unless we know how thick the wires are.

If a copper wire is connected into a series circuit with an aluminum wire of the same diameter, the charges in the copper will flow slower. This occurs because there is one movable charge per each atom in the metals, but there are more atoms packed into the copper than into the aluminum, so there is more charge in each bit of copper. When the charge-sea flows into the copper, it gets packed together and slows down. When it flows out into the aluminum, it spreads out a bit and speeds up. This means that we cannot know how fast the charges flow unless we know how dense the charge-sea is within the metal.

The speed of electric currentSince nothing visibly moves when the charge-sea flows, we cannot measure the speed of its flow by eye. Instead we do it by making some assumptions and doing a calculation. Let's say we have an electric current in normal lamp-cord connected to bright light bulb. The electric current works out to be a flow of approximatly 3 inches per hour. Very slow!

...and that's for DC."

You really should read your own posts before trying to make a point. AC current doesn't flow...it wiggles or vibrates back and for according to your source. Your post from the physics explanation of energy flowing in waves would also negate the need for an expensive wire, since it's not actually travelling through through the wire. More proof from physicists that expensive cables are a scam. 

andy21,294 posts05-13-2021 8:47pmNot sure why but Audioquest has a lot of hates from the "objectivist" bunch. Their dBS has generated a lot of ridicules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLghg0QXPzs&t=37s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf3Yez8WTz4

It’s funny to see these frequency response and distortion measurement.

Thank you for posting the videos in support of expensive cables performing better. Actually...they don’t... AudioQuest was actually worse at the expense of $2,400.00.

Game, set, match. The argument for better performance is nothing more than lies.

andy21,295 posts05-14-2021 4:28pmIf Feynman couldn't explain it, what hopes are there for you guys to be able to explain it.

Which brings us to the point of what? That high-end cable manufacturers can't possibly explain it, either? But...AudioScienceReview.com proved that measurements from 10Hz-200Khz are virtually non-existent from a cheap cable to an expensive cable...and the expensive cable actually ADDED noise from it's antenna effect. Not a good outcome for $2,400.00. But....that's just my subjective opinion.

djones513,981 posts05-14-2021 11:17amhttps://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/cableloss/

Figure insertion loss for your application.

"

The single most important piece of information on the right side of the calculator is the net power loss in the cable. This is a measure of how much of the amplifier power is dissipated in the cable, before it ever gets to the loudspeaker. The lower the power loss, the more power actually goes into making sound. For an 8-ohm loudspeaker connected to 40 feet of 18-gauge zip cord, the power loss is about ½ dB, which is neither audible nor significant, especially for an amplifier with high power output. So, from the standpoint of power transmission, 18-gauge wire is suitable for many home applications. But for longer cable runs, the losses can be greater and you should consider changing to a larger diameter cable.

Another result to note is that, for many cables, the roll-off frequency is well above 20 kHz, the upper limit of the audible frequency range. If the roll-off frequency is below 80 kHz, you might consider changing your cable to a larger diameter."

Thank you for your post. 

jea483,582 posts05-14-2021 5:04pm

edgewound

AC current doesn’t flow...it wiggles or vibrates back and for according to your source.

@ edgewound , where did you read that?


Here...

" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."

Taken directly from one of your cited sources.

And this...
" Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow."

From your cited source here...
Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow.

As you should be.

BTW...nothing you have posted has proven or justified the ridiculous prices of these "high-end" cables that can prove nothing. As a matter of fact, your physics posts have proven otherwise, that the conductor doesn't even matter.

Good work!

The discussion is also about audio frequencies. 

Yes I believe the type of wire makes a difference because they have different levels of resistance and capacitance which is measurable. How come the manufacturer like Belden doesn’t say that their cable needs to be oriented in a specific direction? Are they dumb?

Some of these responses are hilarious. Reverse the coax cable on your DirecTV. Does the picture change? 
Keep living in your fantasy world...Physicists clearly don’t know anything....but you geniuses sure do.

clearthinker360 posts05-16-2021 4:24am" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."

Hi Edgewound
Seems like nonsense to me.
Suggest you buy a mile of cable. Connect one end to the mains.
Connect other end to your hand.
Eat your lunch while you wait for the river of warm putty to reach your hand.
Reconsider your opinion.
Ho hum.

Hey @clearthinker....I didn't write this. But keep failing to actually pay attention. It's clear you're not understanding the concepts.

BTW...HP test equipment is now Agilent...has been for years. Time to get yerself educated. The problem with self-education is the glaring reality that you have not been educated in the first place.

It's interesting that you now admit cable measurements are actually useful, and Blue Jeans Cable is very forthcoming about what they do. here's a bit of very useful info from their website. I have never bought from nor have a relationship with this company, but I do appreciate the honesty put forth.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/exoticmaterials.htm

I never said i couldn't hear the differences in good vs. not so good cables.
Being a guitar player for 47+ years, and a gigging musician, I can definitely hear and FEEL the difference in cables. Especially the difference of long cable runs through passive vs. active pickups.

My post several hours ago about directionality in conductors was removed because I pointed out that a thread from 2010 avoided the issue, and pretty much proved my point with this thread. Don't tell me that my comments were abusive, because the same type of abusive comments have not been removed from other's posts.

The point is the sheer absurd expense of the high end cables and the claims they make with zero technical justification, unlike those made by Blue Jeans Cable. 

I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it.

audition__audio831 posts05-17-2021 3:04pmedgewound is a musician. Explains a ton based on my experience with musicians especially those who play through amplification.

To some a little knowledge is a wonderful thing and to others a curse. Those who dont know what they dont know are a bane.

So typical to call for the removal of comments you dont like, especially when these offensive comments are no worse that others that jumped from your keyboard moments earlier.

Stay as long as you like edgewound, but perhaps you should quit while you are behind.

I've actually been in the audio business full time for the last 33 years and counting.

It's amazing the things one can learn about audio hardware/software in the professional and consumer markets after 4 decades with hands-on experience and how transfers through being a musician and attending both professional and consumer trade shows. CES, NAMM, AES. The consumer market has no standards body to answer to when it comes to outrageous claims. AES has pretty stringent standards when it comes to specs publishing. CES not so much. 

...and oh....BTW...not one person has come up with evidence that the wire conductors in cables are directional.

Why?...because they aren't. 

And if you simply cannot understand the simple concept without attempting to get into molecular physics at audio frequencies, you're hopelessly in search of something that isn't there. So much has been said that has been deleted because of contradictory statements....while trying to change the subject away from the original post.

cleeds3,802 posts05-17-2021 2:25pmedgewound

I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it

The moderators do a pretty good job here. If you disagree, I suggest you direct your concerns to them for resolution. Or, are you a "new" user who's been previously suspended from the site multiple times?

A detective, you're not. I've only one registration. Never been banned to come back as someone/something else. Maybe I should be flattered?

@andy2 ...

Might wanna recheck what you posted. Several things are glaringly inaccurate. 

And...the link I posted to AudioScienceReview.com tested cables from 10Hz to 200KHz to within a 1/2dB variance...with mentions of the threshold of human hearing.

cleeds3,814 posts05-18-2021 11:54amAs geofkaitt used to say here, "Clean-up in aisle 7!"

You're really not as smart or clever as you think you are.

clearthink1,222 posts05-18-2021 12:54pmIt is sad and unfortunate and probably a reflection of the American public educational system that so many new users struggle to communicate their ideas, concepts, and questions in such a way that it is clear, concise, and literate and yet also complies with the very liberal, accepting, and accommodating rules of this forum and that must be the reason, explanation, and justification for the moderator's to have deleted so many of these posts.

"Liberal, accepting, and accommodating..."

That's high comedy, right there.

Here's a fun read...

https://www.waldonell.com/static/documents/Science%20Behind%20Speaker%20Wires.pdf

Pretty confident heads will explode.

I predicted that response. Why? Because it fits the level of wit and originality.

Everything that can be heard, can be measured...except tinnitus...and one's imagination...though tinnitus can interfere with a hearing test.

Not everything that can be measured, can be heard. 

When testing loudspeaker components/systems in my shop, particularly high frequency devices such as compression drivers, quite a few customers can't hear a sweep tone beyond 14KHz. I've had lots of older folks...especially men...that can't hear beyond 8Khz...and that's driving with 2.83V into 8 ohms.

And yes...even speakers that measure similarly can sound sound quite a bit different in their presentation of a musical image by how they're designed.

What on earth does this have to do with conductors being directional?...which they are not.

More avoidance, and obfuscation, and changing the subject. How many of you subjectivists hold public office?

What a fun, enlightening thread this has become. 

Perceptions are one thing. Biased by many factors. Actual technical specs are a baseline to making a purchasing choice.

When no specs are presented by a manufacturer, I suspect vaporware.

nonoise7,062 posts05-19-2021 3:52pmThank goodness none of the objectivists here are practicing psychologists or there’d be way too many misdiagnosed people running around, questioning their very existence, high on anti psychotic drugs.

All the best,
Nonoise


LOL...We ALL practice psychology everyday. Professional, licensed psychologists are just like every other paid profession. Some are very good...Some are not, and shouldn’t be in the profession...because they're in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

pauly534 posts05-19-2021 2:01pm

" If cable direction caused audible differences then the measurements would vary depending on the way it was measured."

And the day we discover the device or method that can measure the audible differences a human can discern, your comment would be correct. Until then your comment is non sequitur

For the record, I have not heard a difference in the orientation of a cable. But there is no science known to man that tells us it’s not possible. Given the overwhelming amount of individuals who have experienced the phenomenon, I’m inclined to keep an open mind.

Keeping an open mind should be easy for you, since you lack grey matter. Plenty of empty space to fill up.

I got your troll right here, pal. 

mahgister5,534 posts05-19-2021 4:31pm

because they’re in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

Your vision of the world mimic the one of self appointed crusader or a paranoical one...

The number of psychologists which practise from the beginning for MONEY is not the majority at all.... Why? because if the money is your principal motivation you dont study psychology to begin with...

And manipulating the needy is more easy in law profession and political one.... Or big corporation....Instead of field day to day clinical psychology...

Your analysis is a projection of your own motivation perhaps or experience with a psychologist you antagonized?



Anyway your observation is completely "irrational"....

By the way most cables manufacturers are no more no less thiefs than usual commercial companies... If you think otherwise you are very inexperimented in life experience to say the least...

And answering to a perfectly logical argument like in the preceding post by an insult is more an indication of your own mental state than a description of the antagonized poster you answered to....

I am not a psychologist by the way..... But even a children can analyse your answer illogical rant....

Then i must conclude that your thread is NOT a truthful question but only a question to provoke antagonisn.... You owned already the truth and you are not interested to look for it...On the contrary you have fun mocking people of so called " poor" understanding....It is not a sign of high level intelligence sorry...

Nice attempt to cherry pick from my comments to bolster your rambling incoherent ramble. I said "some"...not "all". And...I'm old enough to have had enough life experience to know shysters when I see them. 

We won't get into levels of intelligence...nor failings at your written prose. Maybe English is not your first language, but you shouldn't lecture if you can't get coherent thoughts across. Deal?

nonoise7,063 posts05-19-2021 5:06pm

LOL...We ALL practice psychology everyday. Professional, licensed psychologists are just like every other paid profession. Some are very good...Some are not, and shouldn’t be in the profession...because they're in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers.

Some of those very good psychologists you seem to have "scientifically" qualified with that statement would have a field day with you. Maybe even write a thesis on their time interviewing you.

But wait, would you demand a double blind interview, with you and a ringer behind a curtain, speaking through some form of Autotune to mask your voices so as to sound the same?

All the best,
Nonoise

You love to make assumptions and statements that make zero sense. 

Some psychologists are far more competent than others. You think that's incorrect? Or are ALL licensed professionals of the same level of capability and intelligence? 

mahgister5,535 posts05-19-2021 6:58pm

I said "some"...not "all".

You are right about that...

Then forgot all the part of my post about cables manufacturers and psychologist....

Why insulting someone who give a coherent point like many people experience is perceiving this direction in cable?

There are quite a few commenters in this thread that didn’t pay attention to the question/idea/premise of my thread on conductor directionality. It was either avoided, or the subject changed to how the cable is terminated, or have been led down the primrose path by the cable manufacturer’s "claims" that the conductor is directional by the way the wire was drawn.

It’s just not possible...especially at audio frequencies.

nonoise7,066 posts05-19-2021 10:09pmYou still don't get it. That, and you're starting to remind me of some homeless guy I blew off today. Kind of felt sorry for him afterwards.
Best to not talk to you anymore.

All the best,
Nonoise

How you treat your fellow humans, whether homeless or filthy rich, says quite a bit about your character. Since you simply chose to "blow off" the homeless guy, rather than give him a hand up...tells me all I need to know about you.

nonoise7,066 posts05-19-2021 10:09pmYou still don't get it. That, and you're starting to remind me of some homeless guy I blew off today. Kind of felt sorry for him afterwards.
Best to not talk to you anymore.

All the best,
Nonoise

You said it...I didn’t...🤣🤣🤣👏👌👍😉

Losing an argument. That’s funny.

It’s definitely been an education.

mahgister5,537 posts05-20-2021 3:03pm« Why asking a question if you already know the answer?» -Anonymus Smith

https://www.google.com/search?q=query+definition&oq=query&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i433l7j0j0i433...

The answers are all over the place. Some in the world of reality, others’ in the world of confirmation bias/fantasyland.

thyname1,270 posts05-20-2021 7:05pmAnd some people are delirious. To the point of being hilarious

Most everything is interpreted from your personal frame of reference. Whether it's accurate or not? That depends on other...stuff.