So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...

Why is it the direction an AC wire is installed only seems to affect audio systems? You never see people complaining about their refrigerator boiling eggs or stove freezing pizza with backwards wires.

Alternating current alternates, it's the energy that flows in one direction. 

https://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/cableloss/

Figure insertion loss for your application. 

But hey, he's only a recording engineer working with Pink Floyd so what do they know?

 Really interesting article. Thanks for the link. 

Insertion loss and return loss are relevant for RF in antennas and microwave but not audio in a few feet of wire. 

No ones talking about skin effect. You're talking about different things. Current is not energy. Current flows in the wire, energy flows along the wire. 

Storing or moving energy.

There is a common misconception that signals are carried in conductors. Somehow this association crosses over to the idea that conductors carry both signals and energy. A few simple calculations can show that this is a false idea. Consider a 50-ohm transmission line carrying a 5-volt logic signal. The initial current at switch closure is 500 mA. A typical trace is a a gram-mole of copper that has 6 x 1023 copper atoms (Avogadro’s number). Each atom can contribute one electron to current flow. Knowing the charge on an electron makes it easy to show that the average electron velocity for 500 mA is a few centimeters per second. What is even more interesting is that only a trillion electrons are involved in this current flow. This means that only one electron in a trillion carries the current. This also says that the magnetic field that moves energy is not located in the conductors. The only explanation that makes sense is that energy in the magnetic field must be located in the space between two conductors.Conductors end up directing energy flow - not carrying the energy.

Very good article it shows how the idea of cable direction at audio level is nonsense unless you think the number of electrons change with direction. The signal will flow either way through the field at the same speed using the same free electrons.

So....now it's being said the current doesn't flow through the conductor, but the spaces between the conductors.

Current flows through the conductor by the charge carriers. Energy flows through the EM field in the direction the current flows from high to low. The signal is carried by the energy and modulated by the changing levels of voltage. 

I really like this site. Plug size of conductor in the calculator and it will calculate the drift velocity of the charge carriers. 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/miccur.html#c4

It's not 1993 and jitter is not a problem in modern DACs. 

I’ve purchased speakers just by looking at measurements. I’ve also ruled out components by measurement which is where I find them most useful in narrowing down what I want to consider. I relation to this post cables aren't very high on my list of priorities I pretty much stick with pro cables at a reasonable price,

Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured. Sighted listening is not reliable. Neither of these are in the least controversial. 

Mahgister you're always babbling about A.I.,  in 100 years A.I. will be exponentially ahead of humans. Give it a rest. 

https://www.interceptinghorizons.com/post/technology-is-exponential-but-humans-are-linear

Perception of sound happens in the brain. I know there are some instruments being used to measure things like emotional response to music but no we can't measure all aspects of human perception to sound. This thread isn't about that but measuring the physical devices carrying the signals to the reproduction of the sound waves before they hit the ear. 

I'll make another astonishing statement. All audio frequencies that pass through cables in a home setting as well as studios can be measured. There is no audible differences in the direction of wires unless they have been designed to be. 


Everything a human can hear can be measured, no ifs,  ands or buts. There is no equivocation,   no  in principle, it's a simple fact. Plain and simple  everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us.

I understand, on the other hand your comprehension is rather suspect.

I’ll help you out. Measurement of sound does not equal perception of sound. Quit putting words in my mouth. I have never mentioned perception that’s an entirely different thing.

If cable direction caused audible differences then the measurements would vary depending on the way it was measured. If those measurements show no difference but audible differences are still claimed then listening could be used to see if there is something the measurements are not picking up.

Variation in hearing is normal, I don't hear frequencies I heard 50 years ago, do you? 

Not all but A lot of the specs listed on product info are misleading at best.

That's why it's best to get third party specs, if possible. 

But djones is ready to pass this audible phenomenon over to bias. Perhaps also imagination. How would you like to live in that type of world?

I have no problem with reality. All humans have biases I'm no exception. I assume you're human? 

We all know silver sounds brighter compared to copper.  

That's as far as I got. You're beginning with an unverified premise. Where's the evidence silver sounds "brighter" than copper? What does "brighter" mean and how is it quantified? 

Don't pay any attention to little andy, I don't. 

Now if you have total faith in your equations (and won't trust your ears)

As a scientist can you tell us how science would go about creating test where we can " trust our ears"?

I thought since jmkrajnik claimed to be a scientist he might be able to fill us in on how science goes about testing claims like (trust your ears). 

How do you do to be always beside the point of any post speaking about sound human experience even coming from a scientist?

Because no scientist worth a damn is going to accept anyone's word for their personal experience without testing it especially if they're taking anecdotal claims and extrapolating them to be quantified evidence. 

It’s pretty simple , except for little Andy, if you claim to hear differences in cables based on direction, prove it, and proof isn't me and my buddies tried last weekend. It needs to be a properly controlled blind test.

I'm not saying to measure anything. Just don't cheat and use your eyes when trying to judge what you're hearing. That's all. 

The more their faith is questioned, the deeper they dig in.

Nobody's questioning your faith.

All over the country,  everyday,  electricians run copper wire from panel box to receptacle or light fixture. If one day an electrician yanked the wire out going to a light fixture turned it around and proclaimed 'wow that lights brighter', I think it's safe to say all the other electricians are going to want more than one guys word. Yet here it's backwards world, I hear veils lifted and soundstages widen, How? I reversed a wire. Well,  that's all the proof i need. 

Yeah, that's how they built the Pyramids a nearsighted guy on a sand dune saying , "no move that block a little to the right". We don't need no stinking measuring devices or levers. 

I apparently know the thread is about wire directionality not spatial cues and localization. Does a backwards wire help you find the speaker in the dark? 

The same also happened with volunteers who had been blind since birth, and thus showing that neither visual imagery nor visual experience is necessary for the primary visual cortex to decipher sounds.

Though interesting I'm not sure what this has to do with wire directionality. It does support the contention eyesight isn't that important in localization only the evolutionary area of the brain used for vision. 

This reference i put in the post above illustrate my point about the multidimensionality of perception, here with 2 dimensions at least intertwined, the hearing and visual pathways...

No the reference doesn't illustrate your point,  it disputes it. The visual pathway isn't involved, only the areas of the brain used to process vision. 

subjective experience are delusions if not correlated with some measures...

I've never claimed this. You've assumed it from your irrational thinking. There are 2 distinct things involved and you keep intertwining them.

1. Sound
This we can measure very accurately. 
2. Human perception of sound
This is extremely plastic and subject to learning, mood, and all other outside influences.

This thread is about 1. Sound and can reversing a basic copper cable change it?

Now, I've grown tired of you constantly putting words in my mouth and ridicule of me with your childish name calling.

.

Music for example is not reducible to physical acoustic sorry if you dont know that ....

I don’t even know what this means. If you’re claiming music is not reducible to physical soundwaves you’re wrong.

The rest of your post deals with 2. Human perception of sound.

This thread is about 1. Sound and can it be measured and scientifically tested as to be audibly different according to direction of the conductor. Yes, it can.

I find most of what you post not only wrong but demonstrably wrong. You wander off into areas not relevant to the question trying to prove your dogmatic opinion about not only how sound propagates but how humans perceive sound. The above comment about music isn't soundwaves if I'm deciphering you correctly is laughable. 

I'll quit referencing you in my posts please reciprocate.

I can just see those in your group mentoring a new enthusiast who just bought a more expensive cable. This new person thinks he has discovered something great which made his system sound better and is excited.

 Facing reality is sometimes difficult the more mature a person the easier it is for him or her to put it behind them and learn from the experience. 

Ya see how bizarre things are here djones51 and edgewound

I guess that's part of the attraction. The things people claim they can hear in these cable threads is utterly bizarre. When I step back and think about it though I guess it isn't much different than the claims made in DAC and amplifier threads. 

No, all systems are not equally true to the source material. I never said anything about universal reality which is kind of a weird thing to bring up and I'm not sure what you mean by it. The preference for vinyl is a choice like digital again not getting the point. If your implying vinyl is better then that's your subjective opinion and a lot of people prefer vinyl but it's not an objective reality.

You mentioned "facing reality"! Which reality?

I don't know, how many are there? 

You mention learning from experience

I've learned a lot from experience. I'm happy it makes you laugh. 

you are convinced you cant trust YOUR senses.

I trust my senses but only so far. 

For some reason you want to know my system. I don't see the relevance but it's strictly digital. Lumin U1 mini streamer, 2 Genelec 7350 subwoofers and 2 Genelec 8351b monitors GLM calibration. Various room treatments. Pro  mogami AES3 cables. This is now I've had more gear than worth mentioning, including vinyl and tubes. What I've learned is respect the measurements, engineering, source media and reputation of the manufacturers  and they'll get you better sound than playing with worthless tweaks and lousy measuring speakers which is about 85% of your listening experience anyway along with the room. 

I like the Lumin app and it didn't have a DAC and did have AES3 out. Met the requirements. 

Let's see for $20K,  cables or the W371A woofer extension.... tough choice indeed...

The streamer met the requirements I was looking for. I could have assembled a cheaper alternative but I didn't want to bother with getting the AES3 board from France which is the only place I could find one. I listened to 5 different streamers I could tell no difference in sound so I bought the one I liked. It was a subjective decision. 

I admit I never tried reversing the ethernet cable or AES3 cables. Perhaps that would have clinched the deal for a more expensive streamer. 

So telling of a particular thought process that apparently is hard to shake.

It's easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence. 

Might have been Geithain speakers.   Everything I've read about them they are incredible speakers, cartoid down into the bass. You don't hear much about them outside of Europe.  I believe they sell direct in the US but you get no support. 


https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-901k2.html

Since we're only concerned about the bandwidth audible to humans and runs of cable in feet not miles we don't need to worry about skin effect. Nothing posted on this thread supports or explains why copper wire has a different sound depending on direction. 

Getting carried away here. Perhaps this scientific video will help explain why cables matter. I'm not affiliated with First Run Copper Cables in any way. 

https://youtu.be/TneNgdfhIoQ