Yep...I’m clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow. Save for some "snake oil" products on the market the other ignorant marketing ploy is reducing audio experience to pure new upgrading electronical design who measure better fort sure.... 😁 ACOUSTIC is the fundamental fact my dear.... NOT the signals.... Any relatively good gear can convey signals in a relative acceptable way... It is easy to buy some "good" gear able to convey "signals" relatively well.... But the misinformation of most audiophiles and "objectivists" heads ESPECIALLY is about the ignorance of the huge importance of acoustic and ESPECIALLY about psychoacoustic ... The "measuring better new highly priced design" is a DECEPTION of his own also and insisting on it, instead of pointing to acoustic importance, is an half truth worst than a lie........And reducing audio qualities to measures participate of this MARKETING general delusion... Eat your signals.... My 500 bucks system convey very well the signals.... By the way each of my ear listen not to "signals" BUT to the first wavefront coming from my controlled room and my ears/brain recreate all aspects of sound experience with the 2 different message of my ears....All my room is a distributed set of pressure zones marked out for making easier the brain job.... I trust my ears not your "measured signals"... If you have study electronic engineering now begin to study psychoacoustic....But beware acoustian USE their ears...You will be obliged to change your tune and stop insulting people.... |
It’s easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence. The problem you dont seems aware at all and the vicious circle where you put yourself in, like someone painting himself in a corner, is that the first and last evidence in audio are AUDIBLE experience WITH your ears.... Measures process and written evidence with numbers are in between.... Think few seconds to understand why this is so.... If you cannot you are out of any help.... |
«Stupidity is a business not a accident most of the times»-Groucho Marx 🤓
«All business are not about money»- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
You mentioned "facing reality"! Which reality? I don’t know, how many are there? There is only one reality from which we come from and through which we go interacting with other "realities", it is our own Body/ears//brain/consciousness.... No other one.... |
«My ears are the branch where i am sitting on the tree of consciousness»-Anonymus Smith |
Very good post...
My deepest regards.... |
As if differences in the acuity of senses went against some evolutionary absolute. I think it is not so much a greater "acuity" but sometimes a greater experience and knowledge based perceptive history.... What some called a "bias" in a sarcastic way without knowing that certain " bias" are learned the hard way... Ask any Maestro.... For sure i hated marketing publicity about cables and false claims about "quantum effect" for example...Not because they are impossible but because nothing of this marketing ploys are proved at all.... But when it is said, this is not a reason to twist science the other way and claim that all there is to audible experience could be measured.... Sheeps take a side, i am not one..... |
Perhaps audiophile have their cables delusion....And certainly it is if we look at price....
But i have observed that some so called scientists here have their own delusions about what is real and what is not....
Reducing human perception to engineering software is not science, it could be technology, but science is not an ontological faith in "matter" nor a quest for technological power.... |
My point here was to give an example of the way we CREATE perception not only passively receive information...In this context cables direction could be a placebo effect.... Why not?
My other point in this thread is that our senses access information about reality in a way an unidimensional tool could not... This is the reason why we cannot treated all people testimonies and rejecting them with the back of the hand....
My main point is CORRELATION between human perception and measures are science.... BUT REDUCING human perception to only what is measured in all cases and in all times is ideology not science... A methodological attitude when experimenting using some tools with human perception cannot be a definition of human perception in itself.... |
it seems that instead of derailing a thread between 2 insulting sides i give some food to the thought...
Perhaps the listening of these audible differences is a placebo caused by the complex way the perceptive paths is constituted...
Perhaps human hearing access to some information a frequencies meter could not...
I dont know and nobody here know in a scientifically proven way....
The subject is interesting anyway if we spare insults and think about in all possible ways....
For the cables sellers : i dont buy costly cables because in audio, vibrations controls, decreasing the electrical noise floor and especially acoustic controls , matter way more than buying costly cables...
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Hey maybe you can start a business curing people with cancer using their mind. Can make a lot of money. Win a Nobel Prize too. Sarcasm is a sign of intelligence not a proof that there is really one intelligence working... Sorry... I can use sarcasm too... My suggested videos or articles are all facts.... Perception is a complex multidimensional phenomenon not a unidimensional tool... Quit your religion and think.... |
By the way this take only few minutes and an open mind to go way further....
You know that plant know how to "eat" light by using quantum effects at classical scale?
perhaps then man know something about cables when he carefully listen to them?
Nobody knows.... And some here can be right and it is perhaps a placebo effect, but CLAIMING that it is proven that it is only that is not established yet....
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I do recall some circumstances where people claim to have cured their cancer with their mind, but there are on a few reported cases.
The miraculous healing of Bruno Groning are so well documented that this 3 hours videos will blow your mind... It is a bit difficult here to establish fraud....Try it.... 😊 Good luck.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNlXuclHhVc |
Why human use stick unlike bats and dolphins?
Because they take advantage of their hands and because they walk on solid earth they dont swim or fly... |
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Can these people maneuver in a dark room? No because they are not bats. There is a difference from having some special skills vs. actually possessing capability that can paint the surrounding with sound. Bats can do that and dolphins can but human can’t many blind people see with sounds it is a common place fact illustrating the human abilities like animals... Try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofvXF6UQvc This case of Ethan and daniel is pure echolocation in human https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9lCbFOJ18Q There is more in human perception that there is in a voltmeter.... That does not means that cable direction exist.... That means we cannot trust a frequencies meter to know it exist or not .... Saying the opposite is faith in a witch called technology.... Technology is NOT science by any means.... |
And i will add that perceived sound by humans are not "in the cable " but are created by the brain body.... And these qualities are not necessarily only illusions or placebos, they can be for sure, but they can be indication of other phenomena also...
Then what is perceived in sound experience cannot always be measured with simple electronic tools...
And there exist also the possibility for some qualities of the cable not measured yet by our actual tools to give rise in some conditions for educated listeners ( the right audiophile bias) to this percieved difference between directions...
I dont know....And none of the "objectivist" here knows the final answer either with absolute confidence.... They only claim what they claims with what they know in physics.... Those who vouch for this difference describe their listening experience...Who is right is an open question....
Some perhaps make money with "cables" marketing but it is not a reason to be unscientific here with this subject....
I am interested by this subject anyway and i dont know the answer... |
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I don’t even know what this means. If you’re claiming music is not reducible to physical soundwaves you’re wrong. My point is that processing of sound by the brain /body is multidimensional, after an article about visual and hearing pathways used by the brain in the processing of sounds impressions, here is an article about the participation of the motor system in the evaluation of timbre experience... If you dont know that sound experience CANNOT be reduced to pure physics you know nothing.... Sorry.... If many people testimonies said that cable direction is important PERHAPS something is manifested through the complex multidimensional ways the brain/body evaluated sound and could explain or being related to this experience about wired direction... Are we obliged to be stubborn? Are we obliged to reduce psychoacoustic science to acoustic only and reduce sound experience to some very unidimensional tools in engineering of cables? We are not..... By the way accusing me of derailing this thread is pure bad faith.... I already contributed with few interesting articles and even if wires direction experience could be proved to be only a "placebos" , these articles are interesting and NECESSARY because it seems some dont even understand that music processing experience is NOT reducible to acoustic... A simple example of that is the " musical time concept " which is a body/brain autonomous time unrelated to the time of the clock, which autonomous time is born from the works qualities to be played in an organic manner....... No maestro direct and conduct an orchestra with the help of a clock to recreate the musical time related to a specific symphonies.... Time here is a WHOLE without parts.....The metronome indication is a start point for the synchronization of the orchestra not an endpoint...The endpoint of an interpretation is a "time" or a complex duration which is qualitatively differentiated and not quantitatively reducible to the equal division parts of a clock.... All other musical concepts could be described this way transecending pure physical acoustic...It is all psychoacoustic science matter for analysis and experiment like in the article i just submit here... Science is not a "comic book" matter with 2 opposing gangs : the "objectivist" and the "subjectivists"... I prefer the less stubborn of these 2 gangs here .... But i dont have opinion myself about the subject of directed wiring, i only had a working brain....And i think that perception is NEVER unidimensional..... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322467774_Embodied_listening_and_timbre_Perceptual_acoustical_and_neural_correlates |
This thread is about 1. Sound and can reversing a basic copper cable change it? There is PHYSICAL sound, this is the phenomenon pertaining to physical acoustic.... There is human perception of sound and perception of other phenomena associated with sound, like pitch or timbre, or information about the source of sound.... Changing the cable direction even if this do not correspond to any measurable physical changing KNOWN factors in the cable itself when using the appropriate electronical tools, COULD anyway be an information about some unknown factor read through the sound by the human body and consciousness... Nobody can reject these POSSIBILITIES.... Negating this possibility because someone believe that all human perception means pure subjective relative meaninglessness compared to an electronic tool is going TOO FAR.... This is my point... I dont have personal experience with cable inversion but many people and even some engineers vouch for this experience... I take these testimonies seriously.... I dont want to accuse them of being gullible or ignorant... I consider ignorant the believer and his brother the skeptic.... They are stalled in the way.... I prefer to keep an open mind without mocking the experience of others... And reducing psychoacoustic to acoustic cues is a simplification of a complex scientific subject.... a CORRELATION between these 2 fields is the basis not a reductionist approach....Music for example is not reducible to physical acoustic sorry if you dont know that .... |
Wow. Perception is everything...except absolute I never said that sound which is not only a physical phenomena but also a psychoacoustic one is "absolute".... I said that sound experience cannot be reduced to measuring tools but only CORRELATED with them... I also said that sound perception contrary to a voltmeter or a frequencies meter or any other electronical engineering tools is MULTIDIMENSIONAL and not unidimensional like each one of these tool... Your "wow" is only a derision not an argument ..... |
You are comical...
Have you read my post ?
I made this reference to illustrate the way the brain translate sound impression....Not using only hearing patways but other pathways of the brain....
In this thread i argue for the multidimensional aspect of perceptions and the impossibility to reduce them to a few engineereing tools when we speak about auditory experience about cables or others experience....
Arguing with you is impossible anyway you repeat the only thing you believe, matter only exist, subjective experience are delusions if not correlated with some measures... |
It is called derailing a thread I try to elevate the debate....Instead of the insults eexhange.... Anyone who is not totally with your reductionist stance about that, you call him ignorant... I just post something that show the complexities involved in sound sensation , translation, and experience... Djones you miss the point like usual.... Answering your obsessive technological stance is useless....All is placebos for you ... Mind is an organ that product the illusion of consciousness and all that dissipate at our death.... end of story....It is easy to walk your universe.... |
This reference i put in the post above illustrate my point about the multidimensionality of perception, here with 2 dimensions at least intertwined, the hearing and visual pathways...
It seems evident then that reducing any aspect of the auditory experience to limited electrical measuring tools that do not even exhausted one of the 2 dimensions implicated, and perhaps more dimensions at play , is a bit presomptuous...
It is a belief that condition such attitude like religious belief.... Engineering beliefs or reductionism are no more "noble" than religious one...
Science is cautious with any dogmas.... Especially about dogmas born in his womb...
Then if many people testimonies converge about this "wired direction" experience this does not prove anything for sure, save that these testimonies cannot be ridiculized or dismiss especially because someone trust more a voltmeter than his own ears and the ears of others... Voltmeter are trustful ,Ears too....
In serious matters dogmas and sterile skepticism are useless....Testimonies are only facts to verify....Mocking people for that experience is not acceptable....
Keeping the mind open is the way.... |
My response was not about you.
You are very right about that.... But i am sensible to blatent distortion in a public discussion.... |
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He’s stuck on physics from 500 years ago. That’s all I need to know. His broadbrushing of engineers is also just plain wrong, ignorant and flat out dumb to make such definitive statements. I apologized yesterday to you by distorting one of your post about some/all psychologists.... And you were right, sometimes we react not so cleverly than what we think... I think your answer of this post is way more a distortion than mine was about yours... I expect your mischaracterization like mine is an accident... This scientist DOES NOT stick to the newtonian paradign in his post.... Suggesting the opposite is not faithful to his post... I hope you will recognize that fact .... |
As a scientist can you tell us how science would go about creating test where we can " trust our ears"? How do you do to be always beside the point of any post speaking about sound human experience even coming from a scientist? Trusting our own ears to reach music sound experience is the crux of the matter.... Trusting his own ears dont means negation of science facts, it means only that technological measures SERVE the ears consciious experience... Anyway science is NOT technology..... Engineering is NOT psychoacoustic science....They are correlated without being reducible to one another... Technology goal is always related to the way we isolate a PART of the WHOLE to control it in an EXTERNAL way.... it is about efficient power....A piece of technology, a tool, must be isolated to be constructed and used properly....Even a hammer... Science goal is always related to the way the isolated part is connected and inserted in this WHOLE, or how the part reflect internally or participate to this whole in itself.... It is about knowledge and consciousness not power.... Sometimes along the way men must choose between power and knowledge.... Sometimes we cannot keep the cake and eat it....Technology much be controlled by We are at this moment in history.... Technology without science is death.....But much money is going to be made in the long agony for some.... |
Speakermaster, you actually have it right. Engineers are almost always blinded by equations. Engineers always hide behind equations when they don't understand the "unknown".
Very good post and informed one.... Thanks... |
I know what a question is and to be fair with you your opening question point to an interesting article....
I am perhaps injust with you here....
😊
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« Why asking a question if you already know the answer?» -Anonymus Smith |
I said "some"...not "all". You are right about that... Then forgot all the part of my post about cables manufacturers and psychologist.... i can aknowledge when i am wrong easily and i am wrong here .... I react to speedily to your rant....😊 Why insulting someone who give a coherent point like the past poster pointing to the fact that many people are perceiving this direction in cable? Insults and arrogance are not good points in a debate... No english is not my first language.... |
The level of debate is children schoolyard low... Variation in hearing is normal, I don’t hear frequencies I heard 50 years ago, do you? All there is about hearing qualities are NOT just about the range of available frequencies at some age... I have no problem with reality. All humans have biases I’m no exception. I assume you’re human? Another use of the concept of bias in one ideological direction: illusion or deceptive |
because they’re in it simply for the money, and to practice control of the needy. Just like some cable manufacturers. Your vision of the world mimic the one of self appointed crusader or a paranoical one... The number of psychologists which practise from the beginning for MONEY is not the majority at all.... Why? because if the money is your principal motivation you dont study psychology to begin with... And manipulating the needy is more easy in law profession and political one.... Or big corporation....Instead of field day to day clinical psychology... Your analysis is a projection of your own motivation perhaps or experience with a psychologist you antagonized? Anyway your observation is completely "irrational".... By the way most cables manufacturers are no more no less thiefs than usual commercial companies... If you think otherwise you are very inexperimented in life experience to say the least... And answering to a perfectly logical argument like in the preceding post by an insult is more an indication of your own mental state than a description of the antagonized poster you answered to.... I am not a psychologist by the way..... But even a children can analyse your answer illogical rant.... Then i must conclude that your thread is NOT a truthful question but only a question to provoke antagonisn.... You owned already the truth and you are not interested to look for it...On the contrary you have fun mocking people of so called " poor" understanding....It is not a sign of high level intelligence sorry... |
Perceptions are one thing. Biased by many factors. The problem is that your use of the concept of "bias" is simplistic... A bias is not only something to be eliminated in a statistical experiment using blindstest for example, it is also a positive constitutive aspect of perception to be used and developed in a controlled user environment ... You used this concept of bias in an ideological stance.... Actual technical specs are a baseline to making a purchasing choice. This last affirmation made no sense for me... For sure i want an amplifier with good specs, but among the immense crowds of those measuring well, are they equal? No like everybody with 2 ears can know....
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Measurement of sound does not equal perception of sound. Then why arguing about or against cable directivity? By faith or superstition? oups! i forget.... You claimed that all perception not reducible to measures are placebos for sure.... But wait a minute if some perception are not illusion or placebos , even being non measurable this way by a voltmeter or a frequencies meter , psychoacoustic made sense anyway....And perhaps for the cable, changing his direction is a particular "measure instruction" to experiment with by listening to it? A way to CORRELATE a physical information to an audible perception... And perhaps cable direction made sense being an instruction to experiment with.... Then is all perception of sound reducible to known measurements or not? Say yes or no.... If like you just said measuring and listening are different why do you ridiculize those who experiment with it in the affirmative? |
They dont know that psychoacoustic is not psychology but a rigorous science CORRELATING two factors that cannot be reduced: one is physical acoustic for example and the other is the way the brain/body in a non computer way created the sound qualities experienced by humans...
They dont know this correlation process....They reduced psychacoustic to acoustic, like idiot reduce science to one if his subfield or to technology...
Asking the right question in science is more important than an answer...
An answer can be wrong, a rightly asked question is never wrong.... |
Mahgister you’re always babbling about A.I., in 100 years A.I. will be exponentially ahead of humans. Give it a rest.
https://www.interceptinghorizons.com/post/technology-is-exponential-but-humans-are-linear First i said soon not in 100 years... Second thanks excellent article.. Third confusing science with technology and reality with technological power is directly linked to the stupid affirmation that all what we can hear, see, touch, or think can be measured...A.I. replacing human is the next welcoming "faith".... Cultism zealot in audio or transhumanist are near each other... And speaking of babbling you outreach me by far with your posting...No arguments save superstitious trust in materialism instead of science precisely... Plain and simple everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us. I am pretty sure your brain will be unable to understand it but for example music is not just sound, but a perceived meaning through sound or in spite of the sound, that cannot be measured by a mechanical clock but can be measured by the body....Ask a maestro... Then in the same way that music is not reducible to sound, some others perceived qualities perceived by the ears/body/brain cannot be reduced to frequencies modelling... We do not even have a clear scientific description of pitch perception with complex frequencies modelling this way.... And some pretend against real science playing with their toy/tools that anything we hear can be reduced to measuring gear? Any objectivist must ask the Nobel prize for science, able to prove that.... I will vote for him if he can.... |
Maybe the most naive statement in audio. The objectivists are starting to show how gullible their reasonings are. There are levels of gullibilty... --First level is : buying costly audio cables based on "quantum" marketing pretense, is a gullible act.... But even if the "quantum" explanation is a publicity hoax there exist anyway audible difference between cables, the gullibility is born then more from ignorance about more powerful upgrading factor, than from the buying of costly cables, like cheap acoustic law and devices for example.... -- Second level of gullibility is: not trusting our own cumulatively informed listening experience and experiments but relying ONLY or MAINLY to some measured numbers to buy something in audio.... -- Third level of gullibility the deepest of all gullibility is : confusing science with technology and power, and erasing reality to give technology all the place to work.... Shamans are less gullible than transhumanist... This is "cult" and "religious" attitude without the positive basic truth behind all religion.... |
Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured Here another sophism by our "objectivist" apprentice... Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured, IN PRINCIPLE, But all that can be measured NOW does not correspond NECESSARILY with what we can hear today...Or to what need to be measured to represent the audible impression... Then some perception can escape through the limited way we measured for the time being... And perhaps for a long time indeed because all the body is a multidimensional measuring tool in a way our actual measuring unidimensional tools are not...Ears/brain/body are ONE perceiving apparatus... But stay calm, A.I. will figure it out with a "universal constructor machine" and you will be invited to upgrade your humanity on another level soon...I dont joke here....It comes .... |
«ALL that which we hear can be measured,
If you hear something which cannot correspond to any measures,
You hear an "illusion"....»
This is a children sophism....
A children can spot the problem in the premises with the word "all"....
But an adult arrogating and monopolizing abusively the word "science" for itself can miss this elementaty mistake...
So much powerful is this other deceptive "cult" that misrepresented technology with science...And reduce reality to a misconception of "science"....
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All it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
When Gabriel set out to design his line of Iconoclast cables (done at Blue Jeans Cables) he discovered that UP- OCC, OFE, ETPC copper all sound different from each other yet it can't be measured. He still builds by measurement (each cable comes with it's own certificate with all the specs), but lets the consumer choose which level of copper to pick for the build. Even this objectivists admits that not everything can be measured.
All the best,
Nonoise
Interesting post to say the least... Thanks |
They think that human ears are inferior to measuring tools...They use the limits of their tools and project it on the human ears like if it was only an external material tool... They claim, blinded with their parameters coming from ONE dimension only that we cannot hear - 200 Db signal noise ratio for example... They are not even wrong...
They dont know that "music" dont exist in the world.... Only sounds...
It is consciousness creation called "art"...
What we hear in music and speech cannot be reduced to all measures...It can be correlated yes , reduced never...This is Science....This is the basis of good design...
But ultimately what is there to be measured, the "sounds" are TRANSFORMED by the act of hearing them in something, music or speech, which we can understand but cannot totally measured on all his dimensions simultaneously like the brain did it... We created also speech when speaking or music when playing an instrument, which convey the soul in an intricate way which cannot be understood WITHOUT a translation by the soul of the listener... There is nothing more to measure, the essential is not there to be measured but to be understood by the will and heart and not only the mind...Shannon information theory is not a poem, the equations live on a scale which is not the same scale of meaning than a poem....
One day some robot will say to me that he can think and some will believe it...
I will never believe it because to think we need to be connected to all the universe at once or to the source of meaning ....
And by mathematical definition an A. I. is a disconnected tools...Save for cultist and superstitious mind like transhumanism zealots whatever sophisticated they are....
Like migrating birds navigating earth, human body perceive with way more than the external limited tools in one dimension and limited parameters....The human body is itself an integrated measuring set of tools connected to many dimensions exceeding any of our normal external tools...
«Our tools never dreams»-Groucho Marx 🤓
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In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters. For sure being objectivist or subjectivist made no sense...Save for children playing in a schoolyard... Science is not so narrowingly minded.... Me too.... Open working minds are trustful and skeptic at the same time.... Being one or the other has no appeal.... |
The human body is itself a measuring apparatus but contrary to our other measuring tools our body react to many parameters combined in many dimensions at the same time and translate that in a "sensation".... This is a citation from my last post here above and i want to add an example of what i speak about when i speak about the multidimensional parameters which are timed together and synchronized in the sound perception by the brain which are not measurable by conventional tool of engineering... Audio is more complex than electronical engineering only... This is my grain of salt in the soup of those who vouch by their "electrical engineering" faith and such partial knowledge erase any possibilities about " directed wiring" experience of perception.... This article is not directly connected to the wire subject but illustrate well how human perception is not reducible to an external object like signals in a wire and a corresponding stimulus sensation or his absence.... Reality is not so simple it is not an object with a subject it is a bit more complicated than that..... Sorry.... Reality resulted from a recreation by the brain and is participated by the consciousness which is NEVER external totally to it.... It is the reason why there is no science at the singular but only SCIENCES in the plural.... Here is an article describing surprizing way the brain reorganize sensations/stimulis at different time scale or from different dimensions, and i recommend it especially for those here who always speak of " placebo" instead of figuring out for themselves the complexities in perception : https://www.neurospeed-bailletlab.org/news/new-study-shows-how-the-predicting-machinery-of-our-brains-syncs-hearing-with-vision |
Any phenomenon can be reduced to some set of parameters on a scale this is measured numbers...
For example temperature is a thermodynamical phenomena about molecules dynamic distributions in volume of space reflected at our body scale by the 2 QUALITATIVE polarities related to the sensation "warm" and "cold"...
There is no cold or warm in nature only measured numbers.... We need a conscious finite body with itself an internal thermodynamical distributions of molecules DIFFERENT from the external system which is not finite like our but indefinite relative to our body to speak about "warm or cold"....
Then when we speak of warm or cold we dont speak about a DEFINITE numbers but about a set of different numbers relative to these polarities in us that define our LIMITATIONS and BOUNDARIES...
The human body is itself a measuring apparatus but contrary to our other measuring tools our body react to many parameters combined in many dimensions at the same time and translate that in a "sensation"....
Then what is "audible sensation" for the human ears is itself the expression of a mutiple sets of polarites distributed in many dimensions which are not measured by any of our tools simultenously if they are measurable for now at all...
And anyway even if this is a placebo effect why erasing it?
What good doctor try to erase placebo effect from his drug? In the opposite he reinforce it, saying to his patient that he prays God to make his drug better if he is WISE and not a credulous member of the scientism club...
True scientist use beliefs....They dont erased them by the "law of their faith" like in a cult....
True scientist erase sometimes belief only for the time of an experiment....They are rational without being slave of "reason"....
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oldhvmec: your posts are getting real tiresome! What is tiresome is attacking a post without argument.... And attacking someone feeling or expression... especially with only a few bad words without nothing else... I like oldhvmec because he always speak with humor....And he is a competent mechanic....He even ubderstant pipe organ.... This is enough for me... Anyway it is better when we accept all character in a meeting of souls....Then i will accept yours... |
