Single ended = large images?

Interesting! Thanks Ralph. 

Yes sns I think the "oversized" feeling and the distance perspective are one and the same.

@montaldo The reason this happens has to do with the phase of the 3rd harmonic. It can cause certain sounds to be more forward because it makes them a little louder. Exaggerated effects like this are one reason you want to keep distortion down.

Interesting, haven’t thought about image size variation and its causes, don’t know if it’s speaker related, electronics, room, speaker placement, distance from speaker, or a combo.

Also, regarding SETs, I often think of flea watt amps. I have a 100db speaker which I plan to explore tube amps starting with flea watt SET amps down to 2wpc. For the OP’s 91db speakers, guess he’d need a more powerful SET amp with different sonic signatures.

Kenny_c: I don't think that's it... I've always considered mid-range my priority and I love tube amps because they get the mid-range right. I just remember comparing Carrie 805 to my VTL amps at the time, and the Cary images a little forward and large. Dennis had seems to have acknowledged this was intentional. 

Sounds_real_audio: I actually love my verity parsifal speakers. I'm very happy with the sound of my system right now but I'm just looking for a way to make it better (the sickness). I think a return to the 300B amps, wish I know I love, is worth a shot. I may trade a bit of macro dynamics for mid textures and magic.

Thanks

I would simply go with  300B amplifier, save the Brain damage....find the speakers that sing to you. I have had extensive experience with single ended and would totally recommend the Sophia Electric. You will find they know what their purpose is. make music...proportional in the proper position and allow you to access the music.....not your system, the music..

I’m wondering if the OP’s forward sounding is the related/same as SET midrange emphasis?  

Re: 6C33C tube.   Years ago, I owned these Artemis monoblocks. Depending on the bias setting, the 6C33C tubes lasted somewhere around 2000 hours or so. I used to buy them in bulk @ 20 tubes/order - directly from Russia or Ukraine. Now with the war, the prices have skyrocketed. And they’re no longer manufactured.

@steakster The 6C33 went out of production about 25 years ago and the sole factory demolished so they will never be produced again.

OP: I read your post about staying the course for now - with some tube-rolling.

Just wish to toss out another possibility. The imagery in my system tightened-up noticeably when I implemented a grounding system. I use the Synergistic Research tech since the grounding methodology is integrated into my SR cabling. Other companies offer their own versions, such as: Shunyata Altaira - and Puritan Audio Groundmaster & Puritan Audio Route Master.

Another inexpensive way to experiment with grounding is this device - which I also use.

Curiously, I discovered that grounding will also reveal any noise that might be in the system. In other words, if music sounds worse with grounding, then there’s a dirty power issue lurking somewhere that needs to be addressed.

Thanks. Has it happens I buy all my input tubes from Brent, for years. I may give him a call. 

@montaldo to help you save time, grief, and wonder just give Brent Jesse a call, and ask for the best measuring tubes he can offer for your QS V4s. I looked up yours there and they are not too costly.  He uses a real curve tracer for testing for matched triodes and such. If only I had met Brent decades earlier, could have saved myself and others lot of time. I am currently using mid 1960s Mullard Blackburn plant 12aT7, 12aU7s in my QS amps. Yours appear to be 12FQ7 and 12BH7. The key is quality tubes, low noise, balanced. I compare mine with other vintage and re-issue some times. Brent's best offerings are extra nice. If you like them, buy a set of spares and enjoy.  Call him though for your first inquiry and ask him to help educate you a little. It's worth  the time and $. You might end up hanging on to your amps long term if you go through these steps. Best of Luck.   

https://www.audiotubes.com

I have always used the stock ones that Mike Sanders provides. Until recently a friend gave me a pair of new old stock Raytheon12bh7. I haven't really sat down and tried to compare them... Just putting some hours on them. 

Any specific recommendations for replacement tubes are appreciated!

@montaldo along with QS V4 power tubes, upgraded coupling capacitors, those little front end input/driver tubes matter as well. What are you using now - brand, model, year:

1 - 12FQ7 input?
1 - 12BH7 or 12FQ7 driver?

Guys this is really been a valuable discussion. I appreciate all the great feedback. I think I'm going to hold on the set amps and either keep the amp I have and try KT120s, or possibly one day keep an eye for a 300B push pull amp like the vac Renaissance 30/70 or 70/70.

Both 300B and 845 SET I have sound stage and image differently from the many push pull tube amps or class A solid state amps I've run. I purposely made the move to SET because I desired fuller, greater density imaging, and the performers in the room perspective. Depending on perspectives some may call this bloat. Last year I purchased Pass XP 22 pre to compare to my Coincident Statement DHT pre, I didn't care for the way it more sharply defined image outlines, with Statement I get more decay or blending of separate images. While I wouldn't describe the Pass as having diminished image size, it did more precisely locate them in space. Perspective also changed in that performers became more distant to me. Been a while since I ran push pull tube, but if memory serves me right, the preamp experience replicates move from push pull to SET.

Yes I have no doubt that other subwoofer brands can create that same effect. I wasn't trying to be brand specific but more stating the idea of having a number of subwoofers, set to different crossovers and volumes In a certain way adds a dimension to the sound that I did not think subwoofers could provide. 

What you attribute to REL subs can be found with other subs of very high quality. I agree it isnt as much the bass as how it opens the system up. 90% of subs are crossed over at too high a frequency. I still maintain it isnt his amps.

I have heard the AGDs at several shows and my take was a bit different. These were the best class D I have heard but they also, like other class D, had a 2 dimensional quality. The music didnt fully come off the front of the speakers. To really judge them I would need to listen to them in my room so perhaps this comment isnt entirely fair. My take away from one show was not how good the AGDs sounded, but how accomplished the pro speakers used were.

OP: From what you’ve described, take a look at the AGD Audion monoblocks. I’ve heard them at several audio shows. Here’s a review from a reviewer who had an all tube system.

- - - -

Music can sound full-bodied without having bloated imagery. It takes time to find the right synergy between the components, the cabling and especially, the speaker positioning.

- - - -

Re: 6C33C tube.   Years ago, I owned these Artemis monoblocks. Depending on the bias setting, the 6C33C tubes lasted somewhere around 2000 hours or so. I used to buy them in bulk @ 20 tubes/order - directly from Russia or Ukraine. Now with the war, the prices have skyrocketed. And they’re no longer manufactured.

With OP's six pack setup providing much of his sound stage and imaging needs he doesn't need a amplifier/speaker combo that provides a larger image, sound stage or up front presentation. Every SET I've owned, 845 and 300B partnered with physically large, efficient speakers provides exactly what he doesn't need. I'd suggest sticking with push pull tubes or solid state, more laid back perspective, sound staging and imaging more in line with his needs. For people who haven't experienced Rel subs you need to hear the special way they affect sound staging, integration such that they simply become extensions of your main speakers. The Rels are affecting the entire frequency spectrum in regard to sound staging and imaging. 

I cant imagine an amplifier increasing the perceived size of instruments. Normally this is the results of speakers and interaction with the room. SETs are very quick to clip and do so in a very subtle fashion so what you are experiencing might be the result of overdriving the amps. P.P. type designs tend to sound a bit fuzzy or confused however by comparison which is why I settled on OTLs.

Thanks. I think you all provide good advice. Unless I can get a loan to try, I may just try some tube rolling ing v4 amps, such as trying kt-120 or kt88 tubes. Or think about one of my lost loves, the vac Renaissance 300b amp, which is pure magic and would achieve some of what I want to try. But need the 30/70 or 70/70 versions, and it's a lot of 300b tubes.

My Parsifals are early models and I believe are 89dB. Later models like the anniversary, and maybe the ovation, have higher efficiency.

I would recommend you look at Triode labs-Finale Audio out of Toronto, they make some of the best SET’s I’ve heard. I’m not sure though if they make one powerful enough for your 91db-8ohm (4ohm min) speakers though.

You mentioned 89db but the manufacture states on their web site 91db, either way not overly efficient for a SET IMO.

You may want to consider a parallel SET to get more power. I really do not think your speakers are efficient enough for less than 20watts and IMO probably still pushing it, you may actually need closer to 50-60 watts, if as you mentioned you listen at moderately loud levels. Subs you have will help in this regard if you cut the low frequencies from the main speakers. Not sure if you have that ability.

I’ve owned some moderately easy to drive 94db, 8ohm speakers that really did not come alive on a 300b SET amp @8wpc. They needed 25wpc to wake up. Not sure if the 20-25wpc of the 805-811 will be enough for you. Remember SET’s tend to start distortion earlier in their power envelope than in a push pull configuration. Really 60-70% of their power rating is about all you’re going to have clean.

I’m hopping your successful but if it was me, I’d loan one for a few weeks to see if it meets your expectations. And definitely consider parallel SET. one more thnig in your prce range you may want to consider one of the chinese amps that are well reviewed like the Wilsenton, etc. good value for the money. another option is the gallion amp. 

Yes the six pack goes well beyond two subs, in some small ways on soundstage, etc. I found the biggest benefit of the six pack to be how it makes each instrument and each voice sound more like the real thing in real space. The texture, the timbre, and the ambience around it... Like good vinyl does. The six pack was the first step in my realization that I could get good, musical sound from digital. After getting an audio note UK DAC and a Grimm AU-1 streamer, I decided to sell my analog rig and take a break from analog. This coming from a guy who only a year ago listened to 80% vinyl!

@montaldo Completely slipped my mind, but in thinking about that much Rel sub power it came to me that one very important aspect of Rel subs is how they affect sound staging and imaging. I have only two of the T9x, adding these brought an easily noticeable expansion in sound stage and image size. I can only imagine how your stack of subs would far more greatly expand upon what I'm hearing. My room similar size to yours, I presume your stack with my 300B SET monoblocks would completely overwhelm my room.

I will check into Audio Mirror. Thanks.

Regarding imaging, the other thing worth mentioning is the recording. Certainly there are recordings that are close mic'd  pianos, for example, and therefore the piano will sound giant even if  it's perfectly reproduced. But I just don't want images to be much larger than they would sound with a normal push pull amplifier, which I find fools my brain into thinking it's a real instrument and real space. As one of you pointed out this may be partly due to what each of us gets accustomed to over time. So it could be just my preference. 

Regarding how much money I want to spend, I bought my REL subs used and have about $12,000 invested in the subs and cables. One of the best upgrades I ever made, and not just for bass. They make everything sound so much more real and more analogue. It's not easy to understand exactly why that is, but it is. $7,000 on a used amplifier probably equates to a $15,000 retail, so I don't know why that seems so odd. Also I don't know that it's always meaningful to calibrate how much money you put into each component, especially at this level. Just picking the right component is more important. And of course affordability comes into play. My Quicksilver amps were $6,500 new and I bought them for $3,000 used. They are quite at home in a system of almost any level. 

Check into Audio Mirror SET 45w  monoblocks. You can get ‘em used. Two 6C33C wired in parallel in each mono bloc. Vlad is great to work with. These may be what you are looking for.

Hmmm.  You only want to spend $7K on a new amp, but you have $$$$$ worth of REL subs in your system.  What am I missing?

4 ft violin, 12 ft wide piano etc.

I’ve always thought that with most recordings with a piano in them, the piano usually sounds nearly as long as the small room I am set up in . . . but it’s been so long since I’ve been to live music (with or without piano). . . .

Not that this applies to you and your equipment, but I remember back in the early summer of ’01 when I got my present amp (Cary V12) I was set up in a bigger room and I was frequently operating within ear-bleed parameters. I remember one early afternoon when I was the only one in the house and I had the Steve Earle/I Feel Alright CD on, and I just kept tweaking it louder and louder and louder . . . I remember describing it to a friend of mine at work, I told him it was like the picture was blowing up bigger and bigger like a balloon! I thought that the speakers might explode! Anyway, I found the experience to be a lot of good clean sonic fun, and I rather enjoyed it.

@montaldo its worth checking what you have inside first. There was a batch of guys who saw my first post about 4-5 years ago and tried them in the M120s and the V4 amps. Cannot say I recommend it unless you have a lot of patience getting through the ridiculous settle-in time on the caps I have. Check yours first to be sure.

Mine are in fact the Supreme Eco SilverGold Black SESG Series Metalized Silver Gold Polypropylene Axial, SKU: Mundorf-80510, MSRP $59.88 USD each

The REASON I went to these caps in my QS amps is I wanted to confirm how much of the sound that I was hearing from my prior upgraded Cary amps was dictated by the sound of the coupling caps alone. Sure enough, caps matter a lot. 

The downside was just how freaking long it took for these particular caps to form and settle in. Good grief.   I was pre-warned by a retired local tech friend about this on the first set of Cary amps. He was spot on.  Told me to "get ready for the roller coaster ride", and yes it was nerve-wracking at times  Both Cary and QS amps took 300hrs before things stabilized and the sound and presentation stopped changing.

One amplifier I know I loved was a vac Renaissance 30/30. Push pull 300B output tubes. It doesn't have enough power for my current speakers, but I've heard about 300B SET amps. I have to wonder how amazing they must sound. I'm going to research these a bit. Maybe they are all low powered. I have thought about a vac Renaissance 70/70 or 140/140, but the cost of 300b tubes these days is pretty daunting. The 30/30 and a shindo montrachet are probably the greatest amplifiers I've ever owned, from a goosebumps musical point of view. 

Thanks for that great explanation. You and I are cut from the same cloth.  I spent years with a cj MV-52 then an MV60 and totally came from EL34 listing paradigm! I value the mid-range over everything. If it's not correct I don't care about anything else. I have voiced my system around the v4s with the KT150s, and I think the rest of my system makes them a little more mid-range wonderful, but it may be due to system balance not due to the tubes. I just bought a shunyata Everest which opened up dynamics and clarity. I think it would be really interesting to try the KT-120 tubes. I will think about that! Not sure whether trying to upgrade from mundorf Supremes in my v4s is worth it?

Thanks

Stu

@montaldo sure, I started with KT150s in my QS M120s. They have a little more top end and a little more bottom end compared to the KT120s. I came from Cary, EL34s and Triode amps too. For me, I will always favor that EL34 midrange type of bloomy sound vs something more analytical with just more detail and more bass. Mids for me is where the music is at. Guitars and Piano keys gotta sound engaging. I was never going to be able to find enough power with 300B amps. Cary FE 211s are massive amps, high voltage room heaters. If I had a large separate room, with more AC - I might have gone that route or maybe not.  Too big really.  Mike’s smaller QS Mid Monos with EL34s are short on power and drive for my particular custom 6ohm 92.5db speakers I built. So, Mike and I talked. He felt I might like KT120s more. Started going back through friends with CJs. and the CJ forums, they like the KT120s there too. I later realized KT120 might have been closer to what I like. Af first I did not like them. Tried them twice in fact. Next I then let them settle in about 100hrs and realized it was headed in the right direction. I had played around [a lot] with the small input/driver tubes on the QS 120s, similar to how some of the V4s are set up. I have the other EVO Silver-Gold non-oiler caps. Exact same ones Cary uses on their top shelf upgrades on the FE 211s and such. The KT120s paired with vintage 1960s era Mullard 12xx7 tubes or PSVane 12xx7s up front sound nice. Particularly so when paired with the upper end Mundorf caps. When the amp transformers get warm and saturated, the 3D layered effect occurs, sounds in front, across the front, up to the sides of me. One of my former Cary amps did that too with the same caps, but the QS M120s are cleaner sounding now after these mods. The amps transform with the right caps/tubes in them. 

Yes sns I think the "oversized" feeling and the distance perspective are one and the same. I don't like a forward presentation, and this perceived distance to the performers gives the illusion of size, to me. If all SET amps are forward-sounding, I should probably not go that direction. Does anyone know if a forward sound is just part of the territory, or if some SET amps don't have this?

Decooney: I am pretty sure the caps I have in my v4 amps are Mundorf Supremes.

I've never experienced instruments out of proportion to humans on any SET amp I've owned or heard at shows, or in other home systems. Now I do hear a certain sound stage difference between SET and push pull tubes or class a/b ss. SET's have this sense of bringing performers to the listening room, the others I hear myself more transported to the recording venue, no doubt this is a more up front presentation, may not be for everyone. Personally, I like both, wish I could afford and had the space for at least two reference system with these differing presentations.

Thanks guys!

sns: My two large I'm really talking more about instruments. 4 ft violin, 12 ft wide piano etc. it just doesn't ring true to my brain... Like my head is one foot from the violin or something. Let's be clear I don't have this kind of problem right now. The imaging is pretty perfect in my room with my quicksilvers. 

Decooney: thanks for the great thoughts about quicksilvers. Yeah my v4s had the caps replaced with mundorf before I got them. I'm struggling to remember which mundorf they are. It has occurred to me to upgrade to Jupiter copper and wax, or deulend, etc. But I have not tried KT 120's nor have I ever even heard them! Any specific thoughts on sonic differences between the KT150 and the KT120 in your quickies? I do like the dynamics I have and I hate to lose any of that.

The truth is I'm very happy with the sound of my system right now, but just wondering what's out there that I might be missing such as the set magic. YOU KNOW HOW THIS SICKNESS IS. Maybe what I should do is think about more amp upgrades and cable upgrades, and not go down the set road. If the big upfront images are just endemic to SET, I probably should save myself the brain damage. 

Decooney are there other upgrades to the Quicksilver amps besides the main caps? Would love to hear about anything. Interesting that you came from SET to Quicksilver.

@montaldo fwiw, I came from four different Cary amps [triode/ultralinear) and did the whole DH Inspire Hot Rod Triode thing for a while too. I mention this because I see you run QS V4s with KT150s. My current amps [now upgraded] are the QS M120s originally designed for KT150s, now running KT120s. Thankfully. I evaluated and changed the triode input/driver tubes first, and then upgraded the QS amps to the exact same Mundorf Coupling Silver-Gold EVO caps I ran in the former Cary amps. Bing! Personally, I don’t care for the coupling caps or the main power capacitors in the signal path that Mike runs in the larger QS amps. Spending up here for really good ones here helps, notably. Others will confirm this who’ve done it. Several others here have made similar changes [particuarly those with speakers less than 93db]. FYI, he uses big efficient horn speakers for his design work btw, and possibly those silver cables too, hmmm. This might be the cap gap debate with different use-cases and speakers like yours and mine with lower sensitivity and efficiency. With these upgrade/changes, I now like my QS amps better than any of my prior Cary or DH Inspire triode amps prior. The sound stage, depth, height and focus is just right. Not overly large or ehco extended, nor anything like that. Not at all. Sits in front and spaced apart accordingly and stage depth now where it needs to be imo. I know what you are talking about btw. This is something I was looking for too fwiw.

Wanna try something else instead? - Find a good local tech, get those V4s upgraded and you might be surprised. Some members here emailed me back doing the same - reporting amazing results too fwiw. My KT150s are stored btw, the KT120s are really nice after the caps get swapped out and some good interconnects used. Take it all with a grain of salt I guess. Best of luck.

I guess I don't understand how images can be considered too large. Are you saying images were larger than normal size humans, anything up to human size would not be unnatural to my mind.

Perhaps images seem excessively large due to sound wave interactions with room boundaries muddying up images. I've found judicious room treatment with differing combinations of absorption and diffusion does wonders for imaging.

My room is 13' x 30' , length extends into open kitchen which makes actual L even greater. I run speakers on short wall which means they fire down L. I've used and continue to use 845 and 300B SET amps, along with DHT preamp, this with extremely modified Klipschorns. Also have two Rel subs (crossed over at 32hz) which integrate with Khorns magnificently. I have near human size images that remain distinct within a large sound stage. Images sound extremely  natural to me in that they don't have sharply defined outlines, rather they decay and interact with other images very much like unamplified performers on a live stage. I did purchase a Pass XP-22 pre last year, image outlines more sharply defined which I didn't appreciate, one of the reasons I sold it.

In any case with 89db efficiency speakers you'll likely need 845 amp to adequately run them, and then you have to think about impedance slope, steep slopes require a lot from amp.I used to run 90db Merlin VSM with 845 amps, no issues as they had easy impedance load.

Many years ago I ran Cary SLM-100 push pull monoblocks, Dennis liked those leaky Jensen coupling capacitors, very warm relaxed caps. I remember experimenting with various Mundorf and VH Audio caps. In any case I don't recall any imaging or sound stage issues with these.

I don't doubt you can alter imaging to some extent with the feedback dial,  but this may open up a whole other can of worms. Tonality or tonal balance can be tricky when changing feedback.

To reiterate I don't see any alternative to 845 SET in your situation. You could try a variety of DHT tubes run in parallel or push pull mode for more power, another thread running at the moment discussing these. It seems you've had a good taste of SET, like it, so I'd suggest sticking with DHT tubes. I ran push pull amps with 6550, EL34, KT family tubes for years, I evolved such that for me DHT is the end of journey. Per usual amp/speaker integration key, those Cary's may have been just right for you with the proper match of speaker. As for specific 845 amp recommendations I've owned Art Audio Carissa Signatures, present is Coincident, very similar sound qualities. The exact 845 tube chosen has a relatively large bearing on sound as well, the Cary's may have had one of the warmer tube offerings.

I just read the owners manual for the 805 AE and it says there is adjustable feedback from 0-10. I thought there was no adjustment with this model, which is the one I'm thinking about because it has optional 211 or 845 tube. Maybe this would allow me to dial down the size of images... at least one reviewer suggested it could.

Thanks for the response. You are preaching to the choir on all those points :) We are in the same place relative to sterile neutrality, etc. I wouldn't put Audio Research in the Cary and old CJ camp, but generally I'm in big agreement with you. I am not after pinpoint imaging... I just don't want it to be oversized, like I remember hearing from the 805b amps. I'm just wondering if that comes with the territory with all SET amps... or not.

Yes my REL subs are professionally dialed in by a dealer, and I have a lot of experience with subwoofers for 20 years. I'm always preaching to people about not overdoing it on subs, having too high of a crossover point etc., when the mains are run full range like mine are. These subs are beautifully integrated and added so much to my system. 

I will not be changing speakers because I love my system right now ... just wanting to try SET again. My current amps are Quicksilver v4 monos with KT-150s.

I have some great memories of Cary amps… and yes the images were nice and fat (not obese)… and warm and embracing. They were inviting and natural. I’ll let someone comment on specific models.

You can also effect specificity of imagine with speaker changes. I am familiar with parsivals.

Also, you said you have more than one sub. Make sure they are properly integrated (turned down)… with many, they are going to be almost turned off or the bump in lower frequency bass will interfere with the imaging and muddy it up. I had two subwoofers and had the crossover at 40hz or so and volume less than 10 percent… really close it off or it screwed up the imaging. I have gone to lots of audio friends houses and first thing turned them way down and the system came alive.

I want to add a strong word of caution on the pursuit of vivid small imaging. This often comes at a great cost of musicality and natural tonal quality. Be very careful not to slowly walk yourself into higher treble higher definition sterile systems. One of the wonderful things about Cary and CJ and for that mater Audio Research is the warmth and natural rhythm and pace. Focus too much on imaging and you can end up with a unnatural ones. I can definitely recommend audio research. Imaging is outstanding and natural… not pinpoint, definitely not fat, but outstanding, detailed, natural, and musical.