Should people with no turntable or reel to reel be considered audiophiles?
Just like those driving a Porsche SUV can join PCA (digital audio fans can join Audiogon) but are certainly not Porschephiles unless they also own a coupe (Panamera owners I guess gets a pass here).
Please respond with a yes or no and we'll tally a vote for the first 100 responses.
Yes. It's the mindset that counts so any kindred soul with a smartphone and headphones is welcomed by me. MP3 or FLAC.
Those days when it was mandatory for any audiophile to have a turntable may have gone, but even after 140 years of the gramophone, spinning vinyl has not lost its charm.
Some diehards may argue that the true age of the audiophile was back in those days when amps and speakers had to be built from kits due to sheer cost.
They may have a point, or maybe not. Anyway, we salute you. You lead the way.
From that perspective it is a bit hard not to feel that these kids of today don't know they're born.
"" 500 TT playing a good pressing will provide deeper, warmer sound ..""
warmer sound? deeper? ( please explain this. ), that does not exist in live MUSIC seated at near field position as is where are the recording microphones. To understand it you only need to listen at live event SPLs to a horn/trumpet player at 3m. from him or a drum set at the same distance or a piano at 2m. and you will know that warmer is only in your imagination. That’s what you like but not the true sound of real MUSIC.
MUSIC is not sweet or heavy colored, gentle, swetness and the like. MUSIC is agresive, with brigthness, powerful, with natural colorations, fully dynamic, great rythm, up-front, full emotive, etc, etc. More like digital alternative.
I agree with what @roberttdid posted and ceratinly with @bdp24 where yes hardware is an " evil necessity " to listen MUSIC and at the end system hardware is only a tool.
The audiophile likes to listen/enjoy MUSIC it does not matters the kind of system hardware. It’s not the system hardware what defines if you or any one is an audiophile but if he likes MUSIC. The hardware can gives you different quality sound levels on that reproduced MUSIC.
Thank you rauliruegas, I couldn't have said it better, and often try, but too many audiophiles just don't want to listen nor accept that it is the imperfection of vinyl and the analog signal processing they like, not necessarily the accuracy, though there could be aspects of the "analog signal processing" that happens to interact with speakers and a room that recovers or more likely simulates additional information lost with a typical 2 channel playback void of specific aspects of information from one channel being added (out of phase) with the other.
To understand it you only need to listen at live event SPLs to a
horn/trumpet player at 3m. from him or a drum set at the same distance
or a piano at 2m. and you will know that warmer is only in your
imagination. That’s what you like but not the true sound of real MUSIC.
"That’s what you like but not the true sound of real MUSIC."
When it comes to rock and other "electrified" music (even if it is acoustic but amplified for the venue), it is rough out there. It is really rough around the edges, sharp indeed. It may move you, be good, etc., but it is not you smooth system at home. If for no other reason, those amplifiers, speakers, and venues are not smooth and warm.
When it comes to classical music, the one at home inevitably sounds "better", warmer, more present, and whatever other description that gets thrown in it, when compared to the one in the concert hall. I usually/often sit front row center of the few well-known venues and close my eyes to try to remember the sound. It is somehow blander than the one at home. Pleasant, but just less impressive sound signature. If I were able to reproduce it at home, someone would say it is "veiled" or not clear in some way. Sitting further from the stage (balcony, last rows of orchestra) makes it even less "there".
Those sound engineers, mastering gurus, and whoever else is involved in the recording/producing are there for some reason. They know what we like. And who likes reality?
There are too many personal attacks here. Yes' have it by a wide margin and in one of my previous posts I noted that I changed my original opinion and agree with the majority, although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can't hear well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what they are missing out on), I don't consider digital only guys audiophiles. They play files, not music.
Feel free to carry on, but the tabulations are officially over now that we are over 100 posts. Let's reduce the personal attacks on each other - it doesn't add to the arguments/discussions.
That is a pretty shocking display of lack of self awareness. THIS WHOLE POST is a personal attack on everyone who does not agree with you. THE WHOLE PREMISE OF YOUR THREAD is a personal attack on everyone who does not agree with you. The only way to stop the personal attack would be to ask the mods to delete your personal attack thread. The only reason "yes" have it by a wide margin is most people can't be bothered to respond to "bait" posts. You can't take an accurate poll in an echo chamber.
sokogear OP24 posts06-15-2020 9:19pmThere are too many personal attacks here. Yes’ have it by a wide margin and in one of my previous posts I noted that I changed my original opinion and agree with the majority, although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can’t hear well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what they are missing out on), I don’t consider digital only guys audiophiles. They play files, not music.
Feel free to carry on, but the tabulations are officially over now that we are over 100 posts. Let’s reduce the personal attacks on each other - it doesn’t add to the arguments/discussions.
Well I think it is beyond doubt that unless you have a pretentious stack of gear with price tags attached that must include a turntable and reel to reel and I would add correct cabling you are most definitely NOT an audiophile. So the answer is NO
Robertdid - I asked to stop the personal attacks, but I guess you weren't listening. I agreed with the vast majority and vote Yes, which I think was your vote. Please confirm with one word and leave out the attack.
A PERSONAL attack is one on one...not preferring a format and arguing its virtues.
Cayenne Turbos are nice and fast I am sure, and if that is the vehicle convenience you need and don't have the space or funds to have a true Porsche, enjoy and PCA will still let you join. However, an SUV is not a Porsche. It probably has some shared parts with Audis or VWs (I know, old Porsches were sometimes made by VW).
Great comment Mijostyn. Minus the records and Porches I agree with the rest. Buying bragging rights is not the same as really knowing what is going on and how to make things better.
Again ... the stunning lack of self awareness ... is well ... stunning:
although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can't hear
well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what
they are missing out on), I don't consider digital only guys
audiophiles. They play files, not music.
Cayenne Turbos are nice and fast I am sure, and if that is the vehicle
convenience you need and don't have the space or funds to have a true
Porsche,
An audiophile appreciates high quality sound and the never ending
pursuit to improve it. I would say if you are not an audiophile, this
forum is a waste of your time. Just about everyone's posts seem to be
coming from audiophiles.If you don't understand how vinyl is an important part of that, then just listen!
I do believe in the real world and majored in engineering, not math,
but certainly had to take lots of math classes. Turntables deliver
infinite significant digits of information. (You certainly didn't major in electrical engineering, or computer engineering, or engineering physics, or ..)
sokogearOP26 posts06-15-2020 10:03pmRobertdid
- I asked to stop the personal attacks, but I guess you weren't
listening. I agreed with the vast majority and vote Yes, which I think
was your vote. Please confirm with one word and leave out the attack.
A PERSONAL attack is one on one...not preferring a format and arguing its virtues.
Porsche Club of America. I have driven a Cayenne Turbo and a Macan (they give out loaners when I get service done on my car).
They are very nice and fun for what they are. I like them. I may get a Macan when my wife's lease is up, who knows? Many PCAers have gotten them as second or third (or 4th...) cars and all like them and recommend them if that's what you want/need.
BTW, the most fun Porsche (not fastest, but pretty damn fast) in the recent past is a Cayman GT4. Unfortunately, I really like sunroofs and won't buy a car without one. And no, I don't like cabs since i don't live in San Diego where you can use it the majority of the time. Don't talk about Targa's - the newer ones are really 1/2 cabs with so many motors that in the future you are sure to have a huge bill to replace one of them.
This is how silly your overall position is, and even bringing Porschephile into the discussion. What exactly does that mean? Does owning a Porsche and being a member of PCA mean anything other than you have the resources to buy a Porsche (and even then it does not always mean that). Nope. Does it mean you know anything about cars? No. Does it mean you are at all a superior driver? No. Does it mean you know how to handle a high performance vehicle at limit? No. Does it mean you know how to properly drive a car for maximum performance? No. Does it mean you have some meaningful pursuit of "automotive" nirvana whatever that is ... no again. Just means you could afford to purchase one.
Used to be really into cars, more consumed by other things these days. In the "crowd" I ran with, unless you had built some aspect of your car, had probably completed a few racing courses, and had actually raced, your were just a "poser". You could tell the type, they would show up on track day, sign their waver, get checked out, visibly "sneer" at the "lesser" humans, then proceed to tear up a lot more dirt than lap times, always coming off the track swearing and blaming this or that, but never their own lack of ability. I have driven racing go-karts that would scare the crap out of most "Porschephiles".
Saying you can't be a "real" audiophile unless you own a turntable or reel-reel is about as valid as claiming "Porschephile" has any useful meaning within the automotive world. I consider a kid with a budget amp and set of speakers who uses his phone as a source, but who takes the time and makes the effort to learn something about acoustics, speaker placement, room treatments, room correction, and the science of audio, a heck of a lot more an "Audiophile", than someone who would attempt to exclude people from "the club" based purely based on their own likes for sources.
Glupson, I have driven a Cayan Turbo and it is an overweight tub that has more in common with a tank than a 911 or Cayman. All you have to do to join the PCA is know how to pronounce Porsche correctly. It is not a Porsch it is a Porsche. Nobody ever has trouble saying Ferrari. Mahlman, thanks for the kudos. I was feeling all alone out here. For those of you who do not like a spirited discussion I suggest you take up needle work. If it were not for Cleeds I would not be having any fun.
This is how silly your overall position is, and even bringing Porschephile into the discussion. What exactly does that mean?
Its not silly at all. If you would just for one moment open your closed mind and consider, Porschephile and audiophile are very much related. Understanding one even helps you to understand the other.
Neither one is about anything as crass as stuff. Porschephile means literally love of Porsche- which by the way was a man, Ferdinand Porsche, who made the car and not the other way around. Ferdinand Porsche was an engineer who when he looked around for a car could not find the car he wanted. Practical, fast, efficient, durable, sporty. Above all he wanted a car that was enjoyable to drive. Couldn't find one. So he made one. He figured, and this is near word for word, that if he built the car he liked others might like it as well.
You missed this the first time so let me lay it out for you nice and clear. This is exactly what high end audio is about. Ted, Keith, Eric, Peter, Krissy, all these different people making stuff sound the way they think it should sound. Just like Porsche. Not a one of them did a market study. They just made stuff they thought sounded good. People who care more about sound than anything else bought what they made. Just like people who care more about driving buy Porsche.
owning a Porsche and being a member of PCA mean anything other than you have the resources to buy a Porsche (and even then it does not always mean that). Nope.
Nope is right. Or else everyone with money would have one. Which they do not. Because way more people with money than love of driving. Logic. Try it some time.
Does it mean you know anything about cars? No.
Right. Who said anything about cars? We're talking Porsche. Trying to change the subject. Weak. Lazy. Lame.
Does it mean you are at all a superior driver? No
. Not if all you do is own one. PCA regions coast to coast do however have driver development programs run on a level second only to Bondurant, Barber, et al. In many cases they are the same instructors. Reality. Deal with it.
Does it mean you know how to handle a high performance vehicle at limit? No.
It does if you take DE and let myself or other PCA Driving Instructors help you learn.
Does it mean you know how to properly drive a car for maximum performance?
Yes. Something you would know if you had even one day as a Novice: all the same skills and techniques apply regardless of what you are driving.
Just means you could afford to purchase one.
My what a narrow, small, petty little view of the world you have. Divisive too. Porschephile and audiophile are united in their enthusiasm and love. Bet you didn't even see that one coming.
Exclusion of people always sets up red flags to me. People who prefer Mp3 to Flac is where I draw the line. I have a friend who has 10s of 1000s of files and always prefers them as Mp3. We enjoy speaking about musical discoveries together but I find it difficult to listen to readily available files in the Mp3 format. If it's rare and only available in Mp3 of course I make allowances. I still enjoy vinyl but retired the Reel to Reel many years ago
Oh no Miller, I could see you coming a mile away, and you think your logic is perfect of course, but you can’t see the forest for the trees.
Porschephile means exactly lover of "Porsches", not the man who has long been dead, but the cars themselves. I must say Miller, you have outdone yourself. You write the line that should spell it out for you, but you miss the obvious conclusion perfectly:
Just like people who care more about driving buy Porsche.
For one, I know lots of people who buy Porsches not because they particularly "love" driving, but for the prestige. And even then, NO, not people who care more about driving, but people who care more about driving a particular way(perhaps) AND who ascribe to a certain brand. They don’t like driving any more than someone who buys a Kawasaki Ninga ZX-14, nor a GTR-Nismo, nor someone who soups up a Corvette, tunes a Civic Si, nor drives, a 4-wheel SUV set up for off road, nor someone who races 125cc/250cc shift carts, or even someone who just races stock cars at their local quarter mile. The Ninga driver is arguably far more focused on the ultimate in performance than any Porsche driver. That 4-wheel off-roader allows driving in conditions and places that a Porsche coupe would only have nightmares about. That guy who runs stock cars at his local track likely knows far more about cars and how to extract performance both from the mechanics of the vehicle and from driving than most "Porschephiles". That 250cc shift cart delivers a far more intense and raw driving experience than any road-going Porsche ever made, and for that matter almost any Porsche race car.
"Porschephile" means "Lover of Porsche". That communicate almost nothing about someones passion for driving. If anything, it says far more about a love of "driving equipment" than actual driving, and even then, only specific equipment.
And here you made my argument again. "Right. Who said anything about audio. We’re talking turntables. Trying to change the subject. Weak. Lazy. Lame.
Does it mean you know anything about cars? No.
Right. Who said anything about cars? We’re talking Porsche. Trying to change the subject. Weak. Lazy. Lame.
", Porschephile and audiophile are very much related. Understanding one even helps you to understand the other."
... which for some here is unfortunately true as you have proven .... it’s far more about the equipment than the music. You can’t possibly have good music if you don’t have THIS equipment.
Does it mean you know how to properly drive a car for maximum performance?
Yes. Something you would know if you had even one day as a Novice: all the same skills and techniques apply regardless of what you are driving.
Except most Porsche owners will never set foot on a race track, not even for Novice race school. The same would apply to most who identify themselves as Porschphiles. Probably 95% of people who go to racing school have never owned and never will own a Porsche. Does that make them any less lovers of driving or any less capable of driving well?
Yes, Miller, you have proven well how a narrow view of automobile "nirvana", is exactly the same as some people’s narrow view of audio nirvana. You probably didn’t expect that did you.
Careful there Miller, your Porsche bigotry is showing. Many many people who love driving don’t own Porsches, and owning a Porsche is not a requisite to love driving, or even to strive to some "ultimate" love of driving. You just keep proving my point without even realizing it.
Nope is right. Or else everyone with money would have one. Which they do not. Because way more people with money than love of driving. Logic. Try it some time.
And the point I was making, went right over your head Miller. As I noted, the crowd I was involved with would consider most of your "Porschephiles" to be posers, not real "driving" people, and some of them did own Porsches and a host of other sports cars, but also SUVs, and pickup trucks, and even a station wagon or two.
Thankyou millercarbon, at least you were trying to stay on topic.
The Love of, philo from the greek
Though I think Mr. Robberdiditoverandover again is a rude person.
I think we could lock him/her in a room with no one else and they (all of his multiple personalities) would pick a fight with themselves.
Who wants to listen to a smart person that makes people feel bad?
You keep saying stuff, you know.. STUFF. Seem smart.. Wish you would understand, I'm not as witty. You know as smart as you..
Are you better than me? I hope so, I'd like to meet someone better than me.. Lots and lots folks are... Are you better than me, too, did I meet another one?
I know a guy named robberdiditoverandover, he comes to my house to eat Chicken,shit , yea, I know, robertdiditoverandover, AGAIN.
Your rude.. But seem like a smart guy, just not to smart...
CD guys are audiophiler, too, a second yes..No ears required... Just the love of, that's it... SEE on topic... Can you learn.
Ops.. to long...suppose to be short, Thanks OP good question..
Get real guys. If you want to drive the fastest SUV look no further than Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifolio. Find out what shape your midlife crisis is really in. 😬
... For those of you who do not like a spirited discussion I suggest you take up needle work. If it were not for Cleeds I would not be having any fun.
Another option is to alert the moderators to abusive forum users. That way those who want to actually discuss audio and music here can do so.
I think everyone should be welcome here and also treated with a modicum of respect. It’s sad that any user would come here to have "fun" while doxing and degrading others, or argue that some people are not "worthy" of participating.
people who buy Porsches for prestige typically don’t even know what PCA is. But every one in PCA is not a Porschephile. Just like every Audiogoner is not an asidiophile. Just about everyone who tracks a Porsche is a Porschephile, but that doesn’t mean you have to take your Porsche to the track to be a Porschephile.
@sokogear "considered audiophile" Merriam-Webster definition is "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction" So could you clarify your question in relation to "turntable or reel to reel" VS digital? Are you implying that "turntable of reel to reel" are more "audiophile"? Those are simply two lesser fidelity mediums... that you can like or not.
I know many people who track their Porsches who would not consider themselves "Porschephiles". They would consider themselves "autophiles". The Porsche is just their tool of choice right now, sometimes just for that day, as they often have other sporty vehicles that they drive and track too. Several that have Porsches but never track them as well, but track other vehicles. Would that make them a lesser autophile or Porschephile?
Just about everyone who tracks a Porsche is a Porschephile
As dissimilar as vinyl and tape are relative to the original source, well calibrated analog playback machines are capable of sounding very good. I would consider someone wed to analog playback media an ocular-influenced audiophile. As someone who has spent the past 31 years recording and mixing professionally I can attest that good digital conversion sounds far more like what the microphone hears than any analog medium I have ever worked with, including Studer and Ampex tape machines. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love what those machines do to the sound, but for me fidelity= accuracy, and accuracy to the performance is my measure of fidelity. I enjoy vinyl as well, but my enjoyment of it comes primarily from the ritual and nostalgia. There is also something endearing about the sound imparted in mastering: the compression and limiting used to increase the signal to noise ratio, the faint crackles and the reversal of the RIAA EQ curve. It takes a some judicious, creative processing to master a record that sounds *really* good, and much of that goodness never existed in the performance, recording or mixing... the venerable Fairchild 660/ 670 mastering limiters striking a balance of vertical and horizontal limiting is a sound all its own... the EQs chosen to make low frequencies sound richer without adding any more actual energy through transformer and inductor non-linearities... all that stuff that makes a record sound like a record... it's cool.
Ok ,so as long as you love music . I didn't mean to offend anyone with the comment about if you are deaf could be one .I know Beethoven was going deaf.But would that make him an audiophile? There was no audio electricity then ?But let me ask you guys .Is Thomas Edison the Father of Audiophiles.
Dear @sokogear : If I read or hear something stupid several times writed by the same gentleman/person my brain tells me that he lives in the stupidity land and I can tell him why he is an stupid one in an specific audio subject and for me this is not an attack.
You are posted several posts that already show that your audio/MUSIC knowledge levels are really low and even that and many other gentlemans posts trying that you can learn you just follow in that " land ", so is up to you not to us. Think and understand what you think before post, easy.
""
They play files, not music. "" for me this is a stupid statement and for you certainly it's not. Do it a favor and try to go-out of that " land ", every single day is a learning day. Try to use your common sense in a rigth way not in the way you showed till this moment.
rauliruegas10,069 posts06-16-2020 8:24amDear @sokogear : If I read or hear something stupid several times writed by the same gentleman/person my brain tells me that he lives in the stupidity land and I can tell him why he is an stupid one in an specific audio subject and for me this is not an attack.
Only STUPID if they didn't ask. Must be wonderful to be so dog gone smart..
Time to go feed the chickens. Now they are smart..
I'm sure the wilting flowers will delete this post too..
No ears needed, only the love of the music.
Philo from the Greek, For the love of. To be excited by..
Just like me about deleting post...
Rude seems to rule this post... Wish I was smart, though.
Nothing confuses the PCA faithful more than showing up at the event ( like Marymoor park ) in a very rare but also outlaw 993 wearing a Prancing Horse ballcap...
only true Porschephiles also have the tractor...
we are the people our parents warned us about !!!!
anybody running a Rally car ? Logging roads at Mach 9? Our podunk club had a very competitive Saab back in the day
.... If I read or hear something stupid several times writed by
the same gentleman/person my brain tells me that he lives in the
stupidity land and I can tell him why he is an stupid one in an specific
audio subject and for me this is not an attack.
Raul, I know that English is not your native language, and it can be a struggle even for those for whom it is. So it is with politeness and courtesy that I tell you that using the word "stupid" towards another is indeed an attack. I understand that you may not intend it that way, but there's really no other way for a native speaker of English to interpret the remark.
All parts vibrates, then we must controls resonance...
The electrical grid of the house must be cleaner....
The room is not an external part of your ears, it is an internal part of your hearing apparatus...Then we must controls acoustic...
These are the 3 embeddings of any audio system....The important question is how to address the embeddings....
All the rest, vinyl versus digital, costly electronics,etc, are beside the essential points to create your own Hi-FI paradise... No money is needed, only listening experiments and homemade low cost materials...
Then the question of The OP dont make sense for me....By the way I am an audiophile and I listen to my 10,000 cd and files (classical, Jazz, Indian, Persian-Iranian mainly)....
The Russian Lada 4 by 4 I owned was my favorite car because I can go anywhere in the forest roads and not be afraid of destroying it at a high cost because this car cost peanuts 25 years ago and it was easy to repair it at very low cost.... :) Then a pleasure to ride.....I apologize for being a bit "provocative" here but the thread is a bit provocative also....
" Gives me your favorite road, I will gives you the corresponding car"- Groucho Marx
Well, it was not my car but the man let us take laps on a sunny day. I even went on the Tauern (Autobahn) for a bit. I had not remembered it for the longest time, until reading this thread. I have no special feelings for the brand, but I do consider 928 close to the dream car.
Speaking of "utility vehicles" not being real Porsches, sokogear may need to check Jagdwagen.
Is there a collector of fancy brand tractors? Porsche, Lamborghini...
All this Porsche talk. Has anyone actually split a boxer block, like a Porsche, Offenhauser, VW, or Subaru. I have, all of them. I use to work part time for Kieth Black, racing. I use to build diesel and boxer engines. Did a lot of his blower work. KB, Paxton, Jimmy 53,71,92s, Turbo research and VT 1979-80. Also Wager and Pogosa, 1980-81
A lot of the engines were retroed for air frames...Boxers, 2.4-3.6L twin T can't break down up there .. I NEVER had an issue, EVER...
Please don't beat me up guys...
Last count in 2002, I had built over, 350 diesel blocks, and 1100 gas/lpg/propane blocks.
That's when I converted to a hydraulics, mainly..Drill rigs, tunnel work Large Bore...2002-2017. All OBD2, with Cann Buss
Box and drive train, that's the tricky stuff, did quite a few 4,5,6,10-13,15 speed boxes, lots and lots of Allison, Clark, and Zs same auto box but bigger.. The same box Porsche use in their auto shift units..and just about every German,Italian, or British made autoshift muscle car..
All this talk.... See it's fun it's festive... Hat on the floor. Turn up the music.... Cha Cha Cha..... Around the hat I go... the dog following me... The rabbit thinks it time to hide. Maybe so.. Down the wabbit hole we go.... Where is that mushroom?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
