Judging by the serious sound modifying love of "vinyl' I am not sure what they are into, but guessing most don't know what instruments truly sound like in a live space, and many have lost most of the frequency range anyway. If audiophile is the pursuit of accurate musical reproduction then most jabbering here are not audiophiles. Perhaps the reduced information of vinyl better suits them?
Should people with no turntable or reel to reel be considered audiophiles?
Just like those driving a Porsche SUV can join PCA (digital audio fans can join Audiogon) but are certainly not Porschephiles unless they also own a coupe (Panamera owners I guess gets a pass here).
Please respond with a yes or no and we'll tally a vote for the first 100 responses.
Please respond with a yes or no and we'll tally a vote for the first 100 responses.
Showing 25 responses by roberttdid
No, sokogear, it won't matter how much you spend on a turntable, your character will still not be improved. You are still the same person who would consider a post like this even remotely acceptable, and that you even consider asking the question, says a lot about character.
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Your original post, in my mind, shows poor character. I can’t respect anyone who needs to create a divide between people in such a childish way. The posts below shows that you don’t understand digital sampling/audio technology, but you are very good at repeating the tired talking points of other people who don’t understand technology either. I could go into all the ways that vinyl throws away information, and there are a lot of them, but I expect the lesson would be lost. Do many so-called audiophiles truly appreciate high quality sound, or do they appreciate a certain "sound" that they label as high quality? The only absolute evaluation of high quality we could define would be how close it comes to an original live recorded instrument or voice. What is your experience w.r.t. hearing a live instrument then hearing that same recording on vinyl? tape? digital? .... I can tell you that high quality tape sounds pretty much exactly the same, other than a touch higher noise, than a high res digital recording. Listen closely, and the tape will have some anomalies that reveal itself as well. Hear the vinyl pressing and you will instantly pick it up as different and if you value accuracy of reproduction, I don’t mean that as different in a good way. You like Vinyl. Nothing wrong with that, but it does not make you a better audiophile. sokogear OP22 posts06-14-2020 11:58pmReduced information of vinyl???? Robertdid you must be kidding. Even oversampling can’t deliver all the information of a continuous information flow from a cartridge that is not sampled. It is a scientific fact. You can try to get there, and maybe come close, but you can’t get there. |
And magic pebbles man goes with (a) just as expected. Without the ability to support their selfish attention seeking posts with a reasoned approach, the usual path for certain people is to resort to insults. It is pretty much the first indicator that you have won an argument, or they really had no argument in first place. They have no argument, so their only path is to attempt to discredit the other person. |
Within the range of human hearing, vinyl delivers a CONTINUOUS stream of sound. And so is the output of a digital audio device. Within the limits of human hearing, a digital output is far more "continuous" than vinyl. Instead of repeating this statement, which shows you really don’t understand the underpinning of audio/digital audio, why not try to do some research and understand what is actually happening. There is nothing truly "continuous" about vinyl. Once you throw in noise, the continuity is gone, period, and guess what, vinyl has a lot more noise than digital. Vinyl also has more speed issues (throwing away information), vinyl has very poor channel separation (throwing away lots more information), vinyl has RIAA issues (throwing away information), all added to the noise (throwing away information). Yet vinyl still sounds good to many. Accuracy of sonic reproduction, and preference for sonic reproduction are not the same thing, but it is important to understand which is which. Some of those inaccuracies in vinyl, lets call them "analog signal processing", could even be good from a perspective of the brain either extracting information or creating a pleasurable but false outcome. Who cares what Audiogoners believe on this question. It’s like asking people to put up their hand and declare they are a bigot. Is there a positive outcome in that? Robertdid - I’m not creating a divide, just curious as to what Audiogoners believe. |
Shhhh ... don't anyone tell Geoffkait, that rip and streaming eliminates real-time CD error correction from the process, and just as 1+1 = 2, if you are doing Reed-Solomon offline, and there are no uncorrectable errors, then it is impossible for it to make a difference in the sound quality, no matter what someone may convince themselves of. We are not in the realm of personal preference here, we are in the realm of 1+1 = 2, and that does not change based on where the 1 came from. |
Ah magic pebble man. Quick with the ad-homs, quick with the deflections, slow as as a dead tortoise at providing a reasoned argument. So magic pebble man, if the CD is ripped offline, we know the following factually:
So, given all those, please tell us magic pebble man, how your argument holds any water. I don't really expect I will get a meaningful reply. I am sure whatever you respond back will be one of a) more insults, b) an answer that ignores all the points I raised, or c) something completely unrelated and probably coupled with an insult. Of course, you may see that you were wrong (sort of like the RF frequency things and power) and just choose not to reply or admit your error. |
No geoffkait, you are only discrediting yourself. I doubt you will ever see that though. Those that buy into your abuse and deflections are lost anyway, but they don't represent anywhere near the majority. It appears you have never really grown up from being the class clown. I guess you never realized that most of the time people were laughing at you, not with you. geoffkait22,708 posts06-15-2020 1:31pmYes, you’re right, robberrttddidd, I’m discrediting the other person. How perceptive of you! 👀 |
What condition is it, that no matter the discussion, you always bring up the same argument whether it applies or not? I wasn't feeling quite 100% last night. It must have been that low pressure depression over Kansas. There is no way it was the beer and the excessive sun ... not to mention I don't live in Kansas because low pressure depressions cause one not to feel 100% so it must have been that. |
This is how silly your overall position is, and even bringing Porschephile into the discussion. What exactly does that mean? Does owning a Porsche and being a member of PCA mean anything other than you have the resources to buy a Porsche (and even then it does not always mean that). Nope. Does it mean you know anything about cars? No. Does it mean you are at all a superior driver? No. Does it mean you know how to handle a high performance vehicle at limit? No. Does it mean you know how to properly drive a car for maximum performance? No. Does it mean you have some meaningful pursuit of "automotive" nirvana whatever that is ... no again. Just means you could afford to purchase one. Used to be really into cars, more consumed by other things these days. In the "crowd" I ran with, unless you had built some aspect of your car, had probably completed a few racing courses, and had actually raced, your were just a "poser". You could tell the type, they would show up on track day, sign their waver, get checked out, visibly "sneer" at the "lesser" humans, then proceed to tear up a lot more dirt than lap times, always coming off the track swearing and blaming this or that, but never their own lack of ability. I have driven racing go-karts that would scare the crap out of most "Porschephiles". Saying you can't be a "real" audiophile unless you own a turntable or reel-reel is about as valid as claiming "Porschephile" has any useful meaning within the automotive world. I consider a kid with a budget amp and set of speakers who uses his phone as a source, but who takes the time and makes the effort to learn something about acoustics, speaker placement, room treatments, room correction, and the science of audio, a heck of a lot more an "Audiophile", than someone who would attempt to exclude people from "the club" based purely based on their own likes for sources. |
Thank you rauliruegas, I couldn't have said it better, and often try, but too many audiophiles just don't want to listen nor accept that it is the imperfection of vinyl and the analog signal processing they like, not necessarily the accuracy, though there could be aspects of the "analog signal processing" that happens to interact with speakers and a room that recovers or more likely simulates additional information lost with a typical 2 channel playback void of specific aspects of information from one channel being added (out of phase) with the other. To understand it you only need to listen at live event SPLs to a horn/trumpet player at 3m. from him or a drum set at the same distance or a piano at 2m. and you will know that warmer is only in your imagination. That’s what you like but not the true sound of real MUSIC. |
That is a pretty shocking display of lack of self awareness. THIS WHOLE POST is a personal attack on everyone who does not agree with you. THE WHOLE PREMISE OF YOUR THREAD is a personal attack on everyone who does not agree with you. The only way to stop the personal attack would be to ask the mods to delete your personal attack thread. The only reason "yes" have it by a wide margin is most people can't be bothered to respond to "bait" posts. You can't take an accurate poll in an echo chamber. sokogear OP24 posts06-15-2020 9:19pmThere are too many personal attacks here. Yes’ have it by a wide margin and in one of my previous posts I noted that I changed my original opinion and agree with the majority, although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can’t hear well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what they are missing out on), I don’t consider digital only guys audiophiles. They play files, not music. |
Again ... the stunning lack of self awareness ... is well ... stunning: although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can't hear well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what they are missing out on), I don't consider digital only guys audiophiles. They play files, not music. Cayenne Turbos are nice and fast I am sure, and if that is the vehicle convenience you need and don't have the space or funds to have a true Porsche, An audiophile appreciates high quality sound and the never ending pursuit to improve it. I would say if you are not an audiophile, this forum is a waste of your time. Just about everyone's posts seem to be coming from audiophiles.If you don't understand how vinyl is an important part of that, then just listen! I do believe in the real world and majored in engineering, not math, but certainly had to take lots of math classes. Turntables deliver infinite significant digits of information. (You certainly didn't major in electrical engineering, or computer engineering, or engineering physics, or ..) sokogear OP26 posts06-15-2020 10:03pmRobertdid - I asked to stop the personal attacks, but I guess you weren't listening. I agreed with the vast majority and vote Yes, which I think was your vote. Please confirm with one word and leave out the attack. |
Oh no Miller, I could see you coming a mile away, and you think your logic is perfect of course, but you can’t see the forest for the trees. Porschephile means exactly lover of "Porsches", not the man who has long been dead, but the cars themselves. I must say Miller, you have outdone yourself. You write the line that should spell it out for you, but you miss the obvious conclusion perfectly:
For one, I know lots of people who buy Porsches not because they particularly "love" driving, but for the prestige. And even then, NO, not people who care more about driving, but people who care more about driving a particular way(perhaps) AND who ascribe to a certain brand. They don’t like driving any more than someone who buys a Kawasaki Ninga ZX-14, nor a GTR-Nismo, nor someone who soups up a Corvette, tunes a Civic Si, nor drives, a 4-wheel SUV set up for off road, nor someone who races 125cc/250cc shift carts, or even someone who just races stock cars at their local quarter mile. The Ninga driver is arguably far more focused on the ultimate in performance than any Porsche driver. That 4-wheel off-roader allows driving in conditions and places that a Porsche coupe would only have nightmares about. That guy who runs stock cars at his local track likely knows far more about cars and how to extract performance both from the mechanics of the vehicle and from driving than most "Porschephiles". That 250cc shift cart delivers a far more intense and raw driving experience than any road-going Porsche ever made, and for that matter almost any Porsche race car. "Porschephile" means "Lover of Porsche". That communicate almost nothing about someones passion for driving. If anything, it says far more about a love of "driving equipment" than actual driving, and even then, only specific equipment. And here you made my argument again. "Right. Who said anything about audio. We’re talking turntables. Trying to change the subject. Weak. Lazy. Lame. Does it mean you know anything about cars? No. ", Porschephile and audiophile are very much related. Understanding one even helps you to understand the other."... which for some here is unfortunately true as you have proven .... it’s far more about the equipment than the music. You can’t possibly have good music if you don’t have THIS equipment. Does it mean you know how to properly drive a car for maximum performance? Except most Porsche owners will never set foot on a race track, not even for Novice race school. The same would apply to most who identify themselves as Porschphiles. Probably 95% of people who go to racing school have never owned and never will own a Porsche. Does that make them any less lovers of driving or any less capable of driving well? Yes, Miller, you have proven well how a narrow view of automobile "nirvana", is exactly the same as some people’s narrow view of audio nirvana. You probably didn’t expect that did you. Careful there Miller, your Porsche bigotry is showing. Many many people who love driving don’t own Porsches, and owning a Porsche is not a requisite to love driving, or even to strive to some "ultimate" love of driving. You just keep proving my point without even realizing it. Nope is right. Or else everyone with money would have one. Which they do not. Because way more people with money than love of driving. Logic. Try it some time. And the point I was making, went right over your head Miller. As I noted, the crowd I was involved with would consider most of your "Porschephiles" to be posers, not real "driving" people, and some of them did own Porsches and a host of other sports cars, but also SUVs, and pickup trucks, and even a station wagon or two. |
I know many people who track their Porsches who would not consider themselves "Porschephiles". They would consider themselves "autophiles". The Porsche is just their tool of choice right now, sometimes just for that day, as they often have other sporty vehicles that they drive and track too. Several that have Porsches but never track them as well, but track other vehicles. Would that make them a lesser autophile or Porschephile? Just about everyone who tracks a Porsche is a Porschephile |
Sokogear, It is quite obvious to me, and I expect many others reading this thread, that you don’t have any knowledge about sampled data systems, sampling theory, signal processing, nyquist-shannon, nor the impacts of things like signal to noise ratio, timing, bandwidth limited systems, etc. Based on your comments about turntables/vinyl, you don’t understand the limitations of that format in the most rudimentary way and based on your comments about music, I don’t think you have a good understanding of what real instruments sounds like. And yet, and yet, you are trying to tell other people "how it all works", people with deep practical and academic experience who understand these topics intimately. Do you not see a problem with that? To put it into a more visual format: https://condenaststore.com/featured/let-me-interrupt-your-expertise-with-my-confidence-jason-adam-ka... |
Sorry oldhvymec, no Jesuits for me. I save my flights of fantasy for the audiophile world :-) Sort of funny oldhvy, I am standing up for the oppressed, the belittled and the denigrated in this thread, and you call me "rude". Perhaps it is you that has your priorities wrong and your morals out of line. If you consider calling out the bad act in harsh tones, worse than the act itself, I can’t help you. Maybe that is the problem with the world today. Too many people worried about what "sounds" right, and not enough that worry what is right :-) Back to you .... |
Then you are hypocrite mahgister, because the whole point of this thread, no matter the ops protestations (read his other comments in this thread about how he feels about people who don't share his views), is to belittle and harass those that don't feel the same way about vinyl. That view is clouded by ignorance of the topic of vinyl and digital for which the op appears to have 0 desire to increase that knowledge, preferring continue to spew, in order to forward his position, what can only be called misinformation. If you read the comments the op has made in this thread, belittling those who don't share his view of vinyl, it is pretty clear, if one is honest with oneself, that the intention of this thread was not a discussion, the reference to Porschephiles further belaying the intention to segregate based on the ops own personal views. If it was truly presented as a discussion I would have treated it as such, but as the op kept making it clear their bias, the intention of the thread became clear. I apologize as well. I don't take kindly to people who create artificial divisions between themselves and others, and worse, who encourage others to create those same divisions. I dont doubt that all the knowledge you enumerate is truly yours, I have absolutely no doubts about your knowledge... Alas! is it the only knowledge you have? I apologize I am very sensible about the difference between harassing and discussing.... |
"The premium supermini market is a good place to be at the moment but Aston got it wrong in thinking putting a grill and a fancy interior on what was basically a Toyota iQ would make people buy it," he said." Turns out customers are not all as stupid as many marketers think ... only about 150/yr of them for the Cygnet. |
@andera So let me get this right. You think there should be a discussion on a "requirement" for entry to the hobby, that has absolutely no necessity to enjoyment of said hobby, and the concept of which, was based on, by one persons own inadvertent admission, their ignorance w.r.t. how many pieces of equipment in the hobby actually work? Do you also advocate for tennis clubs where members must swear their allegiance to old narrow tennis racquets? I am trying to understand where you draw the line? How about an automobile club, where all things about automobiles of all types and brands are appreciated, but to be a member, you must own an MG ... even though the club is not an MG club at all, it is just a general automobile club. Maybe we should go with the traditional definition of "audiophile" as one who pursues accuracy in audio reproduction (not their own personal taste, but accuracy), in which case, no one two talks about vinyl "perfection" would be included. |
You will find @mahgister , that I will never fault anyone for their personal preference w.r.t. audio. If you prefer the sound of vinyl, I will not fault that choice, and in my writing you will note that I do not. However, if you start spewing about the "superiority" of vinyl, especially it being "technically" superior, then yes, I will call out that falsehood ... but I may even note that the analog signal processing of "vinyl" may either simulate an environment that is pleasing and/or allow the ears/brain to extract something in the recording dependent on the playback environment. You know what is funny to me @mahgister, is that some audiophiles rate sources on this scale from worst to best: Digital (any digital), Vinyl, high quality Analog Tape. One of these does not belong, and it is not digital, it is vinyl. High quality analog tape sound very similar to high quality digital, and if not for the slight hiss of analog tape, it would be hard to tell the difference most of the time. Vinyl on the other hand, due to that "analog processing", is a much different beast. |