Should people with no turntable or reel to reel be considered audiophiles?

Yes

PDK is faster than stick and when there's traffic it's better. Bigger reason - once in a  blue moon my wife has to drive my car and there's no way I'm teaching her how to drive a manual in a 911 and then burn out a clutch.

I just sold my third car because I put so little miles on it. The main reason for it was snow (it was an SUV) and so she could take it when I had to use her car and not touch my car. Since the virus, the SUV was never started and the battery died. It just took up space in the driveway.

Sometimes you can't fight technological change, although I can't see myself ever driving an electric car, even a Taycan.

Wait, there are actual drivers here who drive automatic transmission cars? You must be kidding. Even Porsche can be ordered without it. I thought you guys are serious about driving and after ten pages I find out it is just a pose.

Sorry members, I didn't expect THAT to go so wrong! But when you play with fire ......

All you can eat, baby! Soup’s on! Come and get it! 🤗

Somebody's ready for a changing .... 

Eat my adult diapers.

How about F-1 drivers that wear adult diapers during long races? Geoff,...?

Because there's no wind?

It makes the car faster. Goal is to win the race. Sticks may be more fun and engaging, but there is enough steering, braking and accelerating to worry about at those speeds to separate their driving skill from the next guy.

If the engines are so powerful now why do they have to paddle? 

Should Formula One world champions who only drive cars with paddle shifters, instead of sticks, be considered drivers?  Please!

Arm

warm counterweight is perfect

Dust cover is off when record is playing. Check out my table-Rega P8. Roy Gandy designed it after a cost no object limited edition, Naiad (might be misspelled). They only made a handful, sold to people who knew Roy so they wouldn’t be glommed up by collectors who would triple the price(or more) and never play them.

You can’t play a record with the dust cover on. Easy to put it back when not using it to keep the dust off the table. He is a genius-I trust what he puts on his 2nd best table.
Best part of the table is the arm. Simple design with superb execution. Not an adventure to cue like arms on other tables that look like they belong in a physics lab. They look cool, but how do they sound?

Unless it’s a SOTA and even then....

Tweak #1

lose the dust cover

Engine as close to the middle of the car as possible. Center weight = well  balanced=better handling. Not in the front. Weight over the power wheels.
As far as the tonearm counterweight, maybe it helps with some mismatched arm/table combos, but if it’s good enough for Roy Gandy, it’s good enough for me. Plus it could mess up the fit of the dust cover, since it is not designed specifically for any arm. Tweak away....

NO....

If you think a tonearm counter weight does not effect the sound you might  want to look at your audiofile status.  Also  guess where you do not want your engine in your car, unless it is a dragster.  Just having some fun!!!

Enjoy the ride
Tom
.

I disagree Geoff. I learn new things all the time as I read about them. Many things are not of benefit to me. Some are. I try to get a lot of people's perspectives, which is part of why I like Audiogon's discussions. If you don't overthink it, and focus on if it sounds better and let your ears guide you, you'll be on the right path. It's all about the journey....As far as $$ goes, you don't always get what you pay for.It has to fit and make sense. Some people throw money at a system and it leads to problems and sometimes sounds average.

If you believe the speaker cable woden holders, $1K+ interconnects and tonearm counterweight BS helps, and think it makes it sound better, go for it. 

I got as far as 40+ years of experience. Was that wrong of me? If years of experience was a real factor or money we’d all have great systems. In fact, I have a theory there might be an inverse relationship. Experience and money are typical audio logical fallacies. You know, appeal to authority, appeal to size of wallet, that sort of thing. We all play that game from time to time. Yes, I know what you’re thinking. “My system sounds fabulous!” 🤗

Just 40+ years experience talking to audiophiles, snobs, tweakers, music lovers, Idiots, rich guys, posers, and combinations therof.

Alfred E.

sokogear OP
Fred - there are plenty of audiophiles that are not music freaks - they should enjoy music at a minimum, but are on a never ending quest to get it to sound the best they can. Some are more fanatical than others and are willing to spend a higher % of their net worth to get there. Some self described Audiophiles don’t invest the time to understand their components and how they work together and just throw tons of $$ at their system. A stereo salesman’s dream customer = always changing and not spending any time learning about the technology and equipment, just spending $$. I don’t consider them Audiophiles. Call them Audio snobs if you want.

Plenty of them are also hobbyists and enjoy playing around with their equipment, collecting lots of equipment and experimenting with different tweaks, often of questionable value.

The only question in any of these endeavors should be "Does the change make it sound better"? Not in theory, in reality. Another question for some is whether it is worth the change, considering the law of diminishing returns. Some don’t care about that, but most do. What is the point at which "you’re there"? That doesn’t exist for Audiophiles, because you always need to maintain or replace the cartridge (sorry digital folks).

>>>>It’s getting easier to pick out the anti audiophiles and tweakaphobes these days. I’m guessing you must have taken a nationwide survey to obtain your information, yes? Pardon me for saying so but this is starting to look like a fishing expedition. 😬

When you control the mail you control ... information. - Newman

Fred - there are plenty of audiophiles that are not music freaks - they should enjoy music at a minimum, but are on a never ending quest to get it to sound the best they can. Some are more fanatical than others and are willing to spend a higher % of their net worth to get there. Some self described Audiophiles don't invest the time to understand their components and how they work together and just throw tons of $$ at their system. A stereo salesman's dream customer = always changing and not spending any time learning about the technology and equipment, just spending $$. I don't consider them Audiophiles. Call them Audio snobs if you want.

Plenty of them are also hobbyists and enjoy playing around with their equipment, collecting lots of equipment and experimenting with different tweaks, often of questionable value.

The only question in any of these endeavors should be "Does the change make it sound better"? Not in theory, in reality. Another question for some is whether it is worth the change, considering the law of diminishing returns. Some don't care about that, but most do. What is the point at which "you're there"? That doesn't exist for Audiophiles, because you always need to maintain or replace the cartridge (sorry digital folks).

@geoffkait 

>>>>I totally agree. The human bean brain works through impulses. Many audiophiles hear via impulses through the ears but separated In between by the vast emptiness of space.

Oh my I am still laughing 

this thread went from good to bad and back more times than usual.

This'll probably stir up a fuss: audiophiles are music freaks who have developed a facility for listening to the sound character of the intervening electronic components--when they choose to.

FYI-I read a Q&A on Van den hul’s web site recommending shortest interconnects, so I swapped out my 1.5 M one for  my .5M one. Had to move everything around and unplug it all. Van den hul says every time any cables are moved the wires have to settle down, so keep your cleaning ladies away from it all. I’ve told mine repeatedly not to touch anything, but they can’t keep their hands off thinking they have to dust. They ruined my brother in laws awhile back and he had to replace his cartridge.

Sokohgear I've been accused because of the extent I have labored to acquire a  high end system.  It's a putdown of my hobby.  It probably happens to all hobbyists.  

Grado has made quite a few high end and mid-fi moving iron cartridges.  I've heard some very fine moving magnet cartridges.  An audiophile could definitely own either of these non moving coil cartridges for a high quality analog system.

So use the .5 meter cable instead of the 1.5 M one?

You can use 47k Ohm with any MC, there are many nice phono stage with optional loading, the manufacturer recommendations is not mandatory. Same with MM cartridges, 47k Ohm is not mandatory, in many cases 100k Ohm for MM is better.

Once you will try many cartridges and many different loading options you can say what is better for yourself.

I tried 3-$5k LOMC cartridges and they are no better than some $1k MM (tried many rare ones).

Regarding cables the sort one is the most important between SUT and Phono stage for example.

Balanced phono cable is another story, it’s not just about the length.

I know price does not always equal quality, but this cart works perfectly with the phono stage which has the load setting dialed in at 200ohms, precisely the carts recommended setting.

Agree with cart being most important. I’m not looking to do anything there. I have a Van Den Hul one Special that I may need to get serviced within the next year. I got a great deal on it a while back and don’t think I can come close to its sound for the expected $500 service. It’s a $1850 cartridge.

Also I have both .5 meter and 1.5 meter Kimber PBJ interconnects. Question was whether there would be any difference using the shorter one in between the Phono stage and preamp.

looscannon,

"Glupson is the type who will order the Burmester system when he gets his Porsche."

You are correct. That would be a must. Same for S Coupe. The difference is that in S you can actually hear something while driving while in 911 GTS it is a bit of a struggle. You could hear it in the Cayenne, but it is not a Porsche, apparently, so it does not matter.

Luckily for me, a Porsche is not in near future so I do not have to think too much about it.

Speaking of cars and audiophiles, another small thing. A few years ago, you could pay extra $1000-1500 (I forgot details) for Premium Harman-Kardon system in BMW. Once you read through the instructions (close to the last page, if not the last, in an on-screen manual in the car), it warned you it worked for resolutions up to 320kbps and that's it. It also warned you not to attach any storage device/hard drive to the USB port. Basically, you would pay extra for better sound that you were not supposed to use.

In reality, it worked with FLACs (any resolution), and even with MP3s of higher resolutions.

So would you swap the 1.5 meter cord out for the .5 meter one? My cartridge output is on the high side for a MC, .65.

In analog playback a CARTRIGE is NUMBER ONE thing. As much as your cartridge must be matched very well with tonearm, your speakers must be matched very well with your amp. If you already have some nice speakers for your analog rig then think about cartridge and try different ones, start with MM or MI. This is where you can notice a huge difference in sound immediately without breaking the bank. Until you will not find "your cartridge" do not bother with cables and stuff if they cost more than a cartridge.

If your 1.5m cable is very well shielded i wouldn’t bother. If you have some hum then you can try a better shielded cable. If your cable is good i don’t think you will notice any difference even if you will cut it in the middle and re-solder the connectors.

But if you will change your cartridge you will be shocked by the difference in sound you can hear immediately without changing anything else in your system. The best cartridges are not the most expensive ones for sure (experience is the key).

So would you swap the 1.5 meter cord out for the .5 meter one? My cartridge output is on the high side for a MC, .65.

Hey Chakster-should I worry about my 5’ or 1.5 meter interconnect going from my phono stage to my preamp? It’s a Kimber PB&J.

Phono cables are the most critical, especially with low voltage signal coming from a LOMC cartridge, the signal can be 0.15 mV or even less. This is where the Balanced phono cable, especially for a long distance, is better, but you need a phono stage with balanced inputs too.

It’s been said before and explained in details that using balanced phono cable with LOMC cartridge you will get louder signal.

For MM or MI cartriges with much higher output this problem is irrelevant if your unbalanced RCA phono cable is not too long.

Interconnect unbalanced cable for line level signal between components can be even 3 meters, but normally they are 1.2 meters and that’s fine. They can be shorter if your components are close enough to each other.

Moving the boxes around and switching to a shorter Interconnect cable (which I have a .5 meter one of the same brand) would work without any $$ investment. Would you say this is a no brainer and I should definitely do it?

I don’t use XLR myself, my unbalanced cables are less than 1.5 meters, some of them are 60cm. I have many phono stages and a few preamps, but none of them have an XLR inputs. My Gold Note PH-10 have XLR output, but my Pass Aleph L preamp does not have XLR inputs.

Since all my phono cables and interconnects are super high quality the balanced cables will be the last thing for me to think about. But for those who think about it from the start choosing XLR balanced components is a good point.

I wouldn’t change any of my high-end gear (phono stages or preamps) just because they don’t have XLR connection.

glupson
Indeed the Tesla 3 isn’t included with a great sound system....the S & X are better but not up there. But what cars!

looscannon

The S and X have air suspension and I’ll sit in them for you, Out here in California they are everywhere.

Glupson is the type who will order the Burmester system when he gets his Porsche. The Bose system is not good enough for him not to mention BOSE all over the door panels would be a huge embarrassment. 
Personally, until Tesla makes an interior I can enjoy sitting in I'm out.
Anybody who uses a rock to scrape a trench is an audiophile. I have not been here long enough to get a handle on millercarbon. I suspect he is well intentioned. 
All cartridges are balance devices to begin with. Cable length would not matter so much and the noise floor would drop if manufacturers would put balanced inputs on their units. It is happening slowly. In the mean while most of us are stuck with RCA inputs. Can you convert an RCA input to a balanced input by installation of the right jack isolating ground? Anybody know?

wsrrsw,

"All this bunk makes me want to get a Tesla..."

The last time I tried it, a couple of years ago, it was the ultimate non-audiophile car. You could only listen to music via Bluetooth (or radio). USB ports were for charging, it seemed. I am not sure if it has changed since then, but be careful.

"Like real audiophiles use MCs... and not MM/MI/MF ’things’... 😥"

That qualifies millercarbon as an audiophile. He is the genuine MC.

Hey Chakster-should I worry about my 5’ or 1.5 meter interconnect going from my phono stage to my preamp? It’s a Kimber PB&J.

Moving the boxes around and switching to a shorter Interconnect cable (which I have a .5 meter one of the same brand) would work without any $$ investment. Would you say this is a no brainer and I should definitely do it?

Michelle- MM owners can certainly be audiophiles-they just choose to spend less on a cartridge. 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this Is one area I think Is of universal Audiophile agreement. In general MCs sound better than MMs, just cost more and you have to worry about the phono stage matching to its voltage output.

Thanks so much Chakster. Sounds like it is an issue for long interconnects and Very special situations within the home audio context we discuss. 
There was another discussion about this and the guy had to have balanced ones.

My turntable cable can’t be changed without big time work on the tone arm with a complete wire replacement from cartridge 4pin connector to end of wire rca -I mean balanced plug.

No thanks-I’ll trust Roy Gandy- he knows more than me and has a pretty successful outfit especially known for their tonearms called Rega.

>>>>>Huh? The pros only use XLR? For that reason I’m out.

Please use quote button when you want to quote someone, it will help readers to understand.

You don’t need XLR for your walkman or cassette deck, but try to tell something about RCA to someone on the studio when you need a cable over 5 meters long. Our music recorded with XLR cables only (all studio gear connected with XLR, balanced). 

I think Ralph explained million times the benefit of XLR for LOMC cartridges on this forum, someone could search on the forum.

chakster
I must admit that designers of ultra expensive High-End audio equipment are very slow and probably the last people in audio who came into balanced (XLR) connection, because this is the ONLY TYPE of connectors (inputs,outputs,interconnect) professionals are using for ages. Come to any studio and you will never find any RCA unbalanced cables, ONLY XLR (Balanced) for everything including microphones.

>>>>>Huh? The pros only use XLR?  For that reason I’m out.

Separate question that I haven’t been able to get answered in another discussion about phono stages (not sure why). What is the advantage of a balanced input or output for phono stages? Is that feature only available on very expensive models? Is there a special MC voltage where this feature is helpful?

Read this article

I must admit that designers of ultra expensive High-End audio equipment are very slow and probably the last people in audio who came into balanced (XLR) connection, because this is the ONLY TYPE of connectors (inputs,outputs,interconnect) professionals are using for ages. Come to any studio and you will never find any RCA unbalanced cables, ONLY XLR (Balanced) for everything including microphones.

You can run only balanced cables from MC cartridge to the speakers like Zu Audio Druid (they have XLR port too)

More very nice XLR cables from ZU for audiophiles 

While the conventional hi-fi RCA cables must be short (under 1.5m ), the XLR cables can be very long.

Are you an audiophile when you ONLY use an MM cartridge, i.e. don't care to use 'highly advanced' MC cartridges? 

Kind of don't care to rock up with a 911 and showing up in an SUV thing...🤔 

Like real audiophiles use MCs... and not MM/MI/MF 'things'... 😥 

Michélle 🇿🇦 

Sokohgear, I said that not glupson. I also said that audiophiles like to manage their own gear. I did not say that they but new gear every five minutes. Only Mike L seems to do that. We clean and set up our own turntables, change tubes, make our own cables if we are smart audiophiles and spend more time listening to music than most people.
We also have a tendency to appreciate sports cars and bicycles. I have a new Specialized Diverge. Built it up Campy Super Record 12 speed EPS Disc with Fulcrum tubeless wheels and Hutchinson Sector 32 tires. Ugly bike , heavenly ride. My old Merlin will have to do swim suit duty.
What an FN record, The Crane Wife by the Decemberists. The whole house is bouncing 🥴