Mostly great comments. A couple big disagreements - I have a basic submariner Rolex for 20 years (a working man's watch) - and a 9 year old 911 - I certainly am very happy with both, but can I mention another plus to these 2 investments - lack of depreciation! If you have good audio equipment and buy it correctly, it will hold decent value.
You don't have to have a 911 or Cayman to be a Porshchephile mijostyn - you need a coupe (or cab or Targa). I know some PCA club members that love 924s, 944s, 914s, 928s (not sure why) and even 968s. And you don't have to track them - insurance is a killer and I will not self insure.
Vermonster - a reputable $500 TT playing a good pressing will provide deeper, warmer sound than any digital file.
I asked this question thinking "no", but started thinking about it, lhasaguy has a good point. I met a VERY serious audiophile a few months ago who sold my cousin a loaded Rega P5 for like $600 - the list price of the complete package he sold him is probably $2500. When I asked him what he replaced it with (I recently went from the P5 to the P8 because of the arm), he said "nothing" - unfortunately after his wife and government were done with him he had to sell everything and he said that if he gets back on his fee and has some cash, he said he could easily see dropping $50K on audio equipment. I bet it might be his first $50K.....That guy definitely IS an audiophile and knows more than anyone I've ever met. So, I am a Yes, and yes is WAY ahead. |
Reduced information of vinyl???? Robertdid you must be kidding. Even oversampling can't deliver all the information of a continuous information flow from a cartridge that is not sampled. It is a scientific fact. You can try to get there, and maybe come close, but you can't get there.
An audiophile appreciates high quality sound and the never ending pursuit to improve it. I would say if you are not an audiophile, this forum is a waste of your time. Just about everyone's posts seem to be coming from audiophiles.
If you don't understand how vinyl is an important part of that, then just listen!
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I should have asked "could" instead of "should" but I don't think it would change anyone's answer.
Yes' have a big lead out of the gate....I'll give my vote at 100. |
Of course what we hear is subjective.....if you think it sounds better it does.
as far As “more” information,think of the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. Which is more precise or has more information, 3.1417, or the symbol for pi? Records well recorded and pressed ones in good shape are pi. Or think of 1/9 or .1111111111111111111. I do believe in the real world and majored in engineering, not math, but certainly had to take lots of math classes. Turntables deliver infinite significant digits of information.
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Robertdid - I'm not creating a divide, just curious as to what Audiogoners believe. Within the range of human hearing, vinyl delivers a CONTINUOUS stream of sound.
Tape/reel to reel is better - that's what they use to capture the music in the studio and it delivers a continuous stream of sound as well. I don't own one do to convenience, cost, etc. and I know that is a compromise. We compromise in all decisions. If I had unlimited space, and money, I'd get one for sure and buy any copies Acoustic Sounds sells. A friend who says he wants to get one says they're like $150 per title. I guess you could tape your records, but what's the point of that?
I don't think audiophiles appreciate a certain kind of sound. Some like tubes, some solid state, some electrostatic speakers, some drivers in boxes, some analogue verse digital. In many cases that depends on the music they listen to.
It is impossible to replicate a live experience because of many factors, too numerous to name, so no, home audio does not compare. I once spoke with a stereo store owner a while back who himself couldn't believe that someone had purchased a $150K turntable (there are probably more expensive ones now) and his comment was "do you know how many concerts you can go to for that money". Obviously live music is the best, audiophiles just want the best quality sound they can get in their homes.
There is no "better" audiophile. I would say more serious, crazier, committed to spending a bigger % of their total net worth on the hobby, etc. I wasn't a "better" audiophile when I was in college and had a sizable % of my assets in vinyl and equpment. I had more time and spent more of it concerned on expanding my collection and making it sound as good as possible. Yes, people thought I was crazy, just like my neighbors do now when I wash, cleanse, polish and was my car, but they just don't understand passion.
Mijostyn - audiophiles are not silly, just a bit nuts and passionate about getting music they like to sound as good as possible to their tastes at home. If you want to turn up the treble and bass knobs in your car (or I guess on an old receiver), use an equalizer or DBX in your system, listen to Beats headphones to pump up the bass....whatever floats your boat. And Steve McQueen was cool.
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Robertdid - I asked to stop the personal attacks, but I guess you weren't listening. I agreed with the vast majority and vote Yes, which I think was your vote. Please confirm with one word and leave out the attack.
A PERSONAL attack is one on one...not preferring a format and arguing its virtues.
Mailman - I like your sarcasm. |
Porsche Club of America. I have driven a Cayenne Turbo and a Macan (they give out loaners when I get service done on my car).
They are very nice and fun for what they are. I like them. I may get a Macan when my wife's lease is up, who knows? Many PCAers have gotten them as second or third (or 4th...) cars and all like them and recommend them if that's what you want/need.
BTW, the most fun Porsche (not fastest, but pretty damn fast) in the recent past is a Cayman GT4. Unfortunately, I really like sunroofs and won't buy a car without one. And no, I don't like cabs since i don't live in San Diego where you can use it the majority of the time. Don't talk about Targa's - the newer ones are really 1/2 cabs with so many motors that in the future you are sure to have a huge bill to replace one of them.
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Cayenne Turbos are nice and fast I am sure, and if that is the vehicle convenience you need and don't have the space or funds to have a true Porsche, enjoy and PCA will still let you join. However, an SUV is not a Porsche. It probably has some shared parts with Audis or VWs (I know, old Porsches were sometimes made by VW).
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There are too many personal attacks here. Yes' have it by a wide margin and in one of my previous posts I noted that I changed my original opinion and agree with the majority, although excluding the ones who wish they had a turntable or can't hear well anymore, or use digital because of convenience (but understand what they are missing out on), I don't consider digital only guys audiophiles. They play files, not music.
Feel free to carry on, but the tabulations are officially over now that we are over 100 posts. Let's reduce the personal attacks on each other - it doesn't add to the arguments/discussions. |
MillerCarbon is the man.Agree just about 100%.
people who buy Porsches for prestige typically don’t even know what PCA is. But every one in PCA is not a Porschephile. Just like every Audiogoner is not an asidiophile. Just about everyone who tracks a Porsche is a Porschephile, but that doesn’t mean you have to take your Porsche to the track to be a Porschephile.
QED.
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I guess Raul doesn't think "stupid" is a personal attack. I won't respond to any more personal attack posts.
I like discussions/arguments over bits & bytes versus continuous sound and I'll try one more analogy to see if you digital only guys get it.
By no means am I a watch expert, but I own one automatic watch and one quartz watch (for when the automatic is getting serviced every 7 years or so). Over the long haul (or weekly or monthly), the quartz is more accurate, lower maintenance, typically less expensive, etc. But here's the thing....time does not move in discrete seconds, it moves continuously, just like the seconds hand of an automatic watch. Turntables are automatic watches, CDs, or anything stored in a file are defined by individual 1s or 0s. Not continuous.
Before you throw up in a response, I voted YES, someone could be considered an audiophile if they don't own a turntable (forget the caveats).
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BobbyDid - How is a watch an analogy to rocket science? Talking about time moving continuously? Are you debating that point? At least a 5 year old child has curiosity and is open minded .... that's not a personal attack so I am responding to you. |
Raul - calling something someone says is stupid is still a personal attack. Not sure what "his brain is not continuous" means, but certainly I sleep, so I guess that's not a personal attack. You are certainly encouraged to ADD to the discussion by disagreeing with points.
Also, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but I bet the word "pandejo" is a personal attack. Also please correct your grammar in your posts.
"unknowledgeable man that soko: his brain is not " continuous " its comunication is through impulses and he listen through an ADC ( Analog to Digital Converter. ).
So , he think a turntable is continuous. In spanish he is a " pendejo " to think that way."
Please put an s or es at the end of a verb when appropriate.
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Sorry for the typo. I believe your quote of me was from the middle of a sentence. If not, that was also a typo.
Now I have to be a biologist. How about Audiology, Psychoacoustics (I think that's what it's called), and for that matter Neurology and Psychology.....come on guys, you're getting too technical. I guess my brain is continuous.
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Very closet to perfect MillerCarbon:
"Yes and that is the thing about audiophiles. Most people think it means likes to listen to music. But it can also mean likes to listen to digital."
Just add one word. But it can also mean likes to listen to digital files. |
Now we have a physics discussion....I thought photons are light. I studied engineering with only a years worth of physics.... |
How about just enjoy the music, real or digital?
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There goes Raul again with the personal attacks....I’m reading brains are continuous and digital is not. Why not match how the brain hears?
Still vote yes the digital guys can still be considered audiophiles who listen to files, not music.
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Raul keeps posting the same nonsense repeatedly, including personal attacks about brains, behavior, etc. This is not the place for that. Do you understand what a personal attack is versus a logical argument? I doubt it.
I forget Raul did you vote yes or no to the original question?
Please don't bring up Trump. This is supposed to be fun. My question is the leading discussion trending on Audiogon which is what I wanted. There is no ultimate judge as to whether someone is an Audiophile or not. It would be something you would self describe. If someone wants to call themselves an audiophile, its a free country. No judge and jury - if the question was would you call them an audiophile if they don't own or never have owned a turntable and audiophile, that's your opinion and it can't be right or wrong.
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No just an audiophile. Everyone if forced to listen to digital in their car, all audiophiles listen to both.DOn't know of anyone crazy trying to play analogue in the car.
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Sure Walrus.
Hey Zoo-boy - it's called entertainment, fun and maybe some knowledge transfer (maybe more in other discussions) This one has touched on audio equipment (analogue and yes , digital), cars - (Porsches and others and yes, SUV's), Rolexes, biology, anatomy, physics, psychoacoustics and others I'm forgetting. Please lighten up.
394 and counting.....
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Just fine is not good enough for many of us.
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I thought the comedy shows start at 9PM on Saturdays...
Nobody has called me too young for anything lately (thanks asvjerry), but I sure would like to see the turntable in a car contraption.
Audio in the car is the worst possible noise scenario imaginable. I don't even try to improve whatever branded system is installed by the car manufacturer (I am sure JBL or Bose or Mark Levinson of Bang and Olufson's best engineers had nothing to do with that crap).
Cheers to Glupson for trying with cassettes. Certainly continuous, but I think the best is just waving the flag and listening to XM/Sirius and getting some exposure to new things. It has spurred many an album purchase over the last 6 years or so.
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Rconk - its not about the brand - its about the car (says a self described Porschephile- although not a serious one-those guys only drive air cooled). I had an M3 (and other BMWs before that). I loved that car, but when it was time to change, BMW didn't offer the M3 and then blew it with the replacement that was a disaster.
Once I tried a 911, I said I would drive it until I couldn't get out of it. New Vette looks pretty good....but I have to have a sunroof, so that doesn't;t quallfy (TTop and Cab only). Thankfully I still can, can't say that about the NSX unfortunately which is better handling/more fun than the 911 in handling but nobody thinks about it because Acura can't market it. |
We want as good as possible for a given amount of $$ investment. |
Why do you have 350 records? Since you admittedly don’t care about sound quality, I would not consider you an audiophile.
Car or lack thereof has no impact. Probably are lots of audiophiles in NYC and other cities without cars.
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"Accuse" you of being an Audiophile? I didn't know it was a crime. I think the older the gear that you know about and appreciate (and hopefully some new stuff), the more serious of an Audiophile you are.
Same as with Porsches - the guys who know every model ever made (not counting SUVs) - their options and configurations by year, how many were produced/sold in US, etc. are the most knowledgeable/serious Porschephiles.
They typically drive an air cooled 911 of some flavor between 1968 and 1998 (or have one or more in the garage on a trickle charger) and spend a good deal of time (or used to) driving at the track, optimally as an instructor at Driver's Education events. Dr. Porsche would tell them to get the cars out of the garage and enjoy them.
I'm a lightweight - no track (too expensive and risky) and a water cooled engine daily driver, although I know a lot about 1999-2020 models of 911s, Boxsters and Caymans. Some about the older models, but never owned one.
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You contradicted yourself saying an audiophile likes old equipment and tries to keep it if it sounds good to them, then you say audiophiles are tweakers who delude themselves with useless stuff (which is true much of the time).
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You said only an audiophile deludes themself after saying they wouldn’t get sucked into directional wire or Cable elevators. |
Glupson said only an audiophile can be deluded into thinking directional wire and wire elevators work, but before that said they don't get sucked into that thinking. Which is it?
French Fries is right on the money.
Vonharaland - people come to PCA meetings with all kinds of cars, especially if it's raining. I think the only technical requirement for actual PCA membership is if you own or once owned a Porsche. Nobody has ever been kicked out of a meeting for any reason. We're nice. I'm sure that includes former members who didn't pay their renewal dues.
Nicola - you ARE definitely an Audiophile, but not a Porschephile (or not even a car guy).
Who is barring the doors to the masses as far as Audiophiledom? The problem is most people in our society don't care about getting the highest quality - they care about the most convenience (and cost - maybe). It takes time to place a record on the platter, brush it for lint, take the albums into sleeves and then into their jacket, and then keep them perfectly vertical on the shelf. Twice as often for 45s, which sound better (another discussion). I think any Audiophile is at least a little OCD (as I'm sure I am) or else their albums probably sound like crap. As I said many times - it is a self defining term.
And yes 928 owners are certainly welcomed in with open arms. We like rare cars and they have mostly been covered to parts cars. |
Separate question that I haven't been able to get answered in another discussion about phono stages (not sure why). What is the advantage of a balanced input or output for phono stages? Is that feature only available on very expensive models? Is there a special MC voltage where this feature is helpful?
Sorry for the divergence, but this discussion seems to be getting a larger audience.
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Thanks so much Chakster. Sounds like it is an issue for long interconnects and Very special situations within the home audio context we discuss.
There was another discussion about this and the guy had to have balanced ones.
My turntable cable can’t be changed without big time work on the tone arm with a complete wire replacement from cartridge 4pin connector to end of wire rca -I mean balanced plug.
No thanks-I’ll trust Roy Gandy- he knows more than me and has a pretty successful outfit especially known for their tonearms called Rega. |
Michelle- MM owners can certainly be audiophiles-they just choose to spend less on a cartridge.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this Is one area I think Is of universal Audiophile agreement. In general MCs sound better than MMs, just cost more and you have to worry about the phono stage matching to its voltage output. |
Hey Chakster-should I worry about my 5’ or 1.5 meter interconnect going from my phono stage to my preamp? It’s a Kimber PB&J.
Moving the boxes around and switching to a shorter Interconnect cable (which I have a .5 meter one of the same brand) would work without any $$ investment. Would you say this is a no brainer and I should definitely do it?
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So would you swap the 1.5 meter cord out for the .5 meter one? My cartridge output is on the high side for a MC, .65.
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Agree with cart being most important. I’m not looking to do anything there. I have a Van Den Hul one Special that I may need to get serviced within the next year. I got a great deal on it a while back and don’t think I can come close to its sound for the expected $500 service. It’s a $1850 cartridge.
Also I have both .5 meter and 1.5 meter Kimber PBJ interconnects. Question was whether there would be any difference using the shorter one in between the Phono stage and preamp. |
I know price does not always equal quality, but this cart works perfectly with the phono stage which has the load setting dialed in at 200ohms, precisely the carts recommended setting.
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So use the .5 meter cable instead of the 1.5 M one?
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FYI-I read a Q&A on Van den hul’s web site recommending shortest interconnects, so I swapped out my 1.5 M one for my .5M one. Had to move everything around and unplug it all. Van den hul says every time any cables are moved the wires have to settle down, so keep your cleaning ladies away from it all. I’ve told mine repeatedly not to touch anything, but they can’t keep their hands off thinking they have to dust. They ruined my brother in laws awhile back and he had to replace his cartridge.
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Fred - there are plenty of audiophiles that are not music freaks - they should enjoy music at a minimum, but are on a never ending quest to get it to sound the best they can. Some are more fanatical than others and are willing to spend a higher % of their net worth to get there. Some self described Audiophiles don't invest the time to understand their components and how they work together and just throw tons of $$ at their system. A stereo salesman's dream customer = always changing and not spending any time learning about the technology and equipment, just spending $$. I don't consider them Audiophiles. Call them Audio snobs if you want.
Plenty of them are also hobbyists and enjoy playing around with their equipment, collecting lots of equipment and experimenting with different tweaks, often of questionable value.
The only question in any of these endeavors should be "Does the change make it sound better"? Not in theory, in reality. Another question for some is whether it is worth the change, considering the law of diminishing returns. Some don't care about that, but most do. What is the point at which "you're there"? That doesn't exist for Audiophiles, because you always need to maintain or replace the cartridge (sorry digital folks). |
Just 40+ years experience talking to audiophiles, snobs, tweakers, music lovers, Idiots, rich guys, posers, and combinations therof.
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I disagree Geoff. I learn new things all the time as I read about them. Many things are not of benefit to me. Some are. I try to get a lot of people's perspectives, which is part of why I like Audiogon's discussions. If you don't overthink it, and focus on if it sounds better and let your ears guide you, you'll be on the right path. It's all about the journey....As far as $$ goes, you don't always get what you pay for.It has to fit and make sense. Some people throw money at a system and it leads to problems and sometimes sounds average.
If you believe the speaker cable woden holders, $1K+ interconnects and tonearm counterweight BS helps, and think it makes it sound better, go for it. |
Engine as close to the middle of the car as possible. Center weight = well balanced=better handling. Not in the front. Weight over the power wheels.
As far as the tonearm counterweight, maybe it helps with some mismatched arm/table combos, but if it’s good enough for Roy Gandy, it’s good enough for me. Plus it could mess up the fit of the dust cover, since it is not designed specifically for any arm. Tweak away....
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Dust cover is off when record is playing. Check out my table-Rega P8. Roy Gandy designed it after a cost no object limited edition, Naiad (might be misspelled). They only made a handful, sold to people who knew Roy so they wouldn’t be glommed up by collectors who would triple the price(or more) and never play them.
You can’t play a record with the dust cover on. Easy to put it back when not using it to keep the dust off the table. He is a genius-I trust what he puts on his 2nd best table.
Best part of the table is the arm. Simple design with superb execution. Not an adventure to cue like arms on other tables that look like they belong in a physics lab. They look cool, but how do they sound?
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warm counterweight is perfect
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It makes the car faster. Goal is to win the race. Sticks may be more fun and engaging, but there is enough steering, braking and accelerating to worry about at those speeds to separate their driving skill from the next guy.
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PDK is faster than stick and when there's traffic it's better. Bigger reason - once in a blue moon my wife has to drive my car and there's no way I'm teaching her how to drive a manual in a 911 and then burn out a clutch.
I just sold my third car because I put so little miles on it. The main reason for it was snow (it was an SUV) and so she could take it when I had to use her car and not touch my car. Since the virus, the SUV was never started and the battery died. It just took up space in the driveway.
Sometimes you can't fight technological change, although I can't see myself ever driving an electric car, even a Taycan.
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