Perhaps there is no risk in this case, but several years ago I nearly bought an SME30 from a seller in the UK, off eBay. I smelled a rat after the seller requested payment via bank transfer, and I asked for his address. That turned out to be the address of a pub in London. An inquiry sent to the pub manager quickly revealed they knew nothing about turntables. What interested me was the indignance of the "seller", once I exposed him. The price was definitely "too good to be true".
Should I buy an SME 30/12A for 15K?
I am a vinyl newbie with maybe 100 LPs (or less) in my collection. I have had a Technics SL1210GAE for past 2 years, I just plugged and played it. It’s good but my digital is almost as good or sometimes better.
I recently heard a SME 30/12A at the dealer’s, and it blew my mind, and my digital was no where close (the dealer had almost the same digital -- mine is Nagra Tube DAC, his was the Nagra HD DAC -- and we did on spot comparison, not an apples to apple of course but still best that we could under the circumstances).
Now given my relative inexperience with vinyl (I know next to nothing about setup), should I plunge for this offer which is offered to me at 1/3rd the retail price and probably an endgame TT for me.
Thoughts?
Also, is this as great an offer as I think it is, are there better TTs at 15K$ retail price (I cannot/will not buy used) than the SME 30/12A?
63 responses Add your response
@nferre66 Sorry, I guess my post was a bit cryptic. I meant that you suggested that he pick up the TT because it might be a scam: "If you decide to buy the SME, make arrangements to pick it up in person. You know what they say- if it seems to good to be true…." When the OP had already gone to the dealer to listen to it. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by the quote above.
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@gordon I did. So a great deal. My opinion stays the same. The dealer had both a phono stage and a cartridge infinitely better than that of the OP. It’s unreasonable to think the OP will get anything close to what he heard once he gets it home.
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@nferre66 Did you read the original post? Hint, "I recently heard a SME 30/12A at the dealer’s..." |
Even if you buy the SME don’t expect mind blowing- not even close. Your phono card hasn’t even begun to show the performance of your Technics. The same can be said of your cartridge. I’ve got a 1210G that I love. It took 3 cartridges to find the right one for my tastes and system. I already had a fantastic phono stage. As good as the SME deal is, I’m guessing another $6-7k to get the performance you seek. Why not spend that same money to improve the system you have? Buy the nicest phono stage you can get and a $1500-2000 cartridge. That’s what I’d do because that’s what I did. If you decide to buy the SME, make arrangements to pick it up in person. You know what they say- if it seems to good to be true….
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OP Stated " Thoughts? Also, is this as great an offer as I think it is, are there better TTs at 15K$ retail price (I cannot/will not buy used) than the SME 30/12A? " The OP hasn't been exactly met with their request made to learn of a TT that will cost as a New Model $15K and better the SME 30/12A. As I have a good knowledge of the SME 20/12, as a result of being demo'd it on numerous occasions, I am sure that I prefer a DD Drive and the Models put forward such as the SP10 R and SP 1000R are seemingly on budget to the request made. The SP 10R with a careful Tonearm Selection 'will' be a Tool with all the capabilities to offer a 'mind blowing ' experience. I have shown how the SP 10R can be produced as a replicant of the SP 1000R for a much more affordable outlay. Adding a $4Kish Tonearm of ones choice to the 10R, and not being limited to the 1000R Arm, will get a TT and Arm for approx' $13K, that will see off most of the competition. Extend the option on a Tonearm to a used item at a $4Kish cost and there is a serious TT for the money, not much to contend with it up to a £100K, to show where it is with shortcomings. I know this as a first hand experience from regularly experiencing one in use, and having been demo's substantially expensive TT's over the years. It seems like 'mind blowing' and 'Outperform Digital' and worth 'Stretching to the Purchase Price for a discovered Item, as an attempt to maintain the experience', is the assessment formed during and following the OP's SME encounter. As the OP has informed of their inexperience around all things relating to a Vinyl Source and their (knowing next to nothing about about Set Up). I am eagerly keen to direct their attention away from a Belt Drive design and the continuous complexities to the attentions required to keep it on point as a function. The New DD TT models as referred to, is a much more user friendly experience and will be much more suited to an inexperienced individual, the value of the DD TT will be easily attained and maintained, not such a story with a Belt Drive. The reference to the SP10 MkII is a more awkward one to throw into the line up. The MkII is used (not the OP's wish). The MkII is very capable and with serious potential, the route is made clear with an outline costing. Add to the $2ish outlay a $4Kish New/Used Item Tonearm ( The OP might be excited about a used item SME V 9" or 12"), there are very good options on Tonearms at this price point. There is only one outcome, a TT that will standout in a comparison to its later produced sibling models, and as made known, as the experience of one SP 10R / Modified MKII Owner. The MkII in a very early stage of receiving modifications was capable to put the Newer Generation 10R out to grass. Once more I am experiencing the MkII undergo modifications that are picking up where the mod's are quite evolved and notable for the impact made and improvements perceived. I have no doubt the SP10 MkII I am listening to, to assess the works undertaken, is improved over the 10R I visit regularly. When the P'holz Chassis MkII is in use, which is imminent, the 10R will be sat aside it for assessment, the 10R Tonearm will be used, also the 10R Tonearm can be be mounted on the P'holz Chassis, if the owner wishes to detach the arm from the Standalone Arm Pod and do this.
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" it looks like it will be another 15K to make the 30/12 sing" I would NEVER look at it that way. Rather, the table and arm are SO GOOD that it will bring out the best in even a $15k cartridge. Only a great table can do that. A great cartridge with a second class table and arm will sound good for second class. But still second class. A great table and arm with a mediocre cartridge will sound far better - not as good as a great table with a great cartridge, but still first class, not second. That table will bring out the best in any cartridge you use. And it will never wear out - a cartridge can go after 2000 hours or 500 hours - or 5 hours if you are unlucky or make a mistake. Just look at the horror stories people around here tell, like "The cleaning lady swears she didn’t touch the table, but now the diamond cantilever is hanging from my Koetsu and it’s a 10k rebuild." I’ve come to close to that myself. You can’t make that kind of mistake with a table or an arm. And no rebuild required, either. |
There has been 100% consensus that the SME at the quoted price is a bargain, like the SME or not. For that reason, I think, the thread has wandered off course. What more can anyone say about the question of whether the price is a good one? Perhaps the OP will let us know what are his intentions. Then we can put this to rest. |
I think people are. being unfair to the OP for having 100 records. MAny people claim to have 10k or more records and to know each one well which is almost impossible ie 10k records of 45 mins equates to 7500 hours - about 312 days 24/7. Can i just say that before embarking on a format for the special occasions - and before you really build a collection - listen to a good reel to reel. I was gobsmacked when I heard them in a room by Meridian (yes of digital fame) i've heard many a great turntable - and it was in a different league. I digress - if it is vinyl you want to build up (reel to reel takes a lot of space) go for it - enjoy it - we only live once - you clearly have a good ear with the Nagra gear you have already. Please factor in a cartridge and phono stage. A deck of that calibre requires a great cartridge - the best value high end cartridge which is.a great all rounder is a Benz Micro LPS - phono stages... Nagra PLP is very good - Parasound JC3 I understand to be good (I have a Vendetta SCP2A) - Whest make some very good ones too. |
Good Lord, this is going off base. The OP wants to know if a respected ("ultimate-level" for most of us) TT with arm for a quarter of the usual price is a bargain. It plainly is bargain of the century. @essrand Do let us know what you decide to do. |
When it comes to assessments about the SP10 MkII and the SP10 R. I am sharing in communications across the Globe about the comparisons being put in place between the SP10's from Vintage through to the most recent production. The SP10 R I listen to regularly, has a 30mm Thick Polished Aluminium Plinth produced by an Engineering Shop at a cost of £400. The Dealer who supplied the TT. encouraged and introduced the TT owner to the method to achieve the Plinth, and produce a Mimic Plinthed version of the Plinthed SP1000 R. As said previously the Standalone Tonearm Pod has been so successful the Glanz MH-1200s Tonearm remains mounted on it. This Set Up impresses with a large impact, it has a very desirable SQ, but it does not separate in any noticeable measure from the Modified Vintage Models and take the lead with a clean set of heals as being suggested. It was my Modified MkII and Bespoke Produced Tonearm that that is the foundation for these abandonment of individuals Old Ideas, and the influence that created the individuals to move to modern thought out designs. A Multi £0000's Linn TT is a Superseded Table in relation to the SP10 R owner. The demonstrations of my Modified SP10 MkII and Tonearm, has also been the encourager to abandon another sort after Belt Drive for a Modified SP10 MkII and additionally, be the stimulus to another to produce a scratch designed / built Tonearm. The MkII's that are now within the groups ownership, when produced in earlier guises, i.e, Plywood and MU25 Board Plinths have impressed with Parity to the SP10 R. The group consensus on this is unanimous. The latest guises of the MkII's are much more evolved, as the Densified Wood used as a Plinth Material and allocation of P'holz for the exchange of other parts, is extremely notable for the improvement over the Plywood Plinth. There is imminently to be tried a 'Densified Wood Chassis', reports from others based in other Countries is that this as a methodology, is a substantial improvement, as a design and impact for the better on the TT's presentation. The Bespoke Built Tonearm Design in use having undergone fine tuning, and the Built from Scratch Tonearm having been given additional modifications, have proved, as a result of the extended works carried out, to be works that have exceptional valuable to the betterment. Prior to the individuals in another Country adopting Densified Wood Plinths, there was a few versions of the SP10 MkII in a Modified Form in use. One owner who was a SP10 R owner and was involved in the modification works being undertaken got the point their 'R' was no longer the attractive TT, the modified Mk II was performing better than it. The MkII today still remains their TT of choice and has recently been mounted in a Chassis produced from Densified Wood, and is being claimed to be the best to date (not my words). Make no mistake when covering a MkII as a TT Only, there is a substantial performance on offer for a very fair outlay, even if the route to achievement is a little of the usual trail for certain individuals. Technica got a lot correct in the days of the MkII being designed, add to this modern design approach and materials use, a lot more is to be extracted. For the cost of Donor SP10 MkII, @ $800 -1500. A Service from a trusted Technician with the correct background and Skills @ $300ish. A 25mm Board, 20-25 Veneer Ply's per 25mm Thickness, Orientated Veneers in a Cross Grain Structure, Phenolic Resin Densified Wood Plinth @ $200ish per Plinth Blank. Professional Machining of Plinth Blank @ $150ish. For approx' $2K, there will be a need to bring along TT's that are a substantially increased Value as the attempt to see where the MkII falls short. Add to this design a MkII with a Speed Control Modification, a Densified Wood Chassis and a Platter Bearing Modification, Platter Modification. It will be most likely any TT available over $20-30K and upwards, might be the starting place required to show where a difference is to be discovered that is deemed as being a performance that is a betterment. I am sure of the results from carrying out the methodology above, there is too much available info' from differing sources to confirm the findings are very valuable and wanted to be maintained. This is now a method be be investigated to be used on the Denon DP-80. At this stage of planning for the DP-80, I don't see too many hurdles to be a concern. Even the Bearing Housing Design has shown that it is quite an attractive structure and is a ideal donor for a modification, it can be easily worked with, to improve on the Old Design and potentially worn out part that is present.
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Pindac, it occurs to me that at current exchange rates and considering your quoted cost for an SP1000R (SP10R plus plinth and tonearm) of 16K GBP, you could fly to Tokyo, have a nice vacation in Japan, and return to the UK with an SP1000R and cash to spare. Make no mistake, that unit ought to outperform any SP10 mk2. |
@fjn04 Correct. Unfortunately. There's a used one on another site but the OP wants new. |
In my local HiFi Group the presentation of the Modified SP10 MkII has created quite few changes to how Vinyl Replays are carried out. A Heavily Modified Mitchell Orbe was exchanged for a SP10 MkII. A Heavily Modified Upgraded Linn L12 was exchanged for a SP10R. A SME 20/12 was the go to TT within the Group, and shortly after the growing popularity of the SP10 Models was sold on as it was believed there was more to be achieved. This is now being described as a proven outcome as the Scheu with OL Upgrades and the OL Illustrious are now claimed to be an improved Belt Drive Set Up. A member who is time served as a CD Aficionado, has dug into their Stores and now has a SP10 MkII on the Workbench to put to use. The Modified SP10 MkII that is an ongoing project, has put my long term involvement with Modifying Idler Drives to bed. Even my professionally Modified Model with Purpose Produced Speed Controller does not get a look in, it is a demo' or loaned model only now. It was the Idler Drive TT, that finished my relationship with the Linn Deck used in the 90's. Apart from the SP 10R and Tonearm coming in at approx' £16K new, none of the other options have been costing anywhere near the $15K for the SME under question. Additionally, I feel quite confident in stating, the resale of the Originally Owned TT's by a couple of the owners who have sold their TT's on, have been left with spare monies in the coffers when the replacements that are claimed to be a betterment have been purchased and brought up to a desired Spec'.
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@ronboco Please re-read my post :), I was comparing digital and analog on the same rockport/nagra/boulder system.
@lalitk Thanks, it does look like we have a similar system. I took a look at your digital, looks like I have a long ways to go before I can claim that I have my digital setup fine-tuned, which bolsters @rauliruegas advice/opinion on this issue. I read somewhere else (I could be wrong) that you are planning to upgrade to an Etsuro Gold cart, is it to make your analog come closer to your digital? And yes, it looks like it will be another 15K to make the 30/12 sing, which gives me a pause. @yoyoyaya Good points worth pondering on. But at least I have an answer to the question if this TT is the worth the money. And most of you have confirmed that this is a fantastic deal. Now it's more of a personal question, of whether to take a "real" plunge into analog.
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@OP - I previously owned a 20/12a and replaced it with a Technics SL 1200GAE, keeping the same cartridge. I partly did it as an interim step to fund an upgrade to my digital system. However, the SME was not hands down better than the Technics. I would imagine that the 30/12 should better it but I would do a fairly extensive audition before deciding. That said, at the price being offered, the 30/12 looks like a genuine bargain and you should easily get your money back if you ever sell it. One last thing I would consider though is whether, given the size of your record collection and the fact that pretty much all vinyl relases of new music are from digital files, it is really worth investing that much in analogue versus improving your digital setup. |
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If you expect to continue into records and significantly add to your collection over time, the SME table has always considered to be one of the best and it's a great beginning to updating your phono system. It's good enough that if you want as time goes by it will complement all or at least every update to your cartridge and phono stage and any other changes to your system. EVERY review of it has been totally impressive. |
Don't think twice about it. If (and with the big SME, it's pretty unlikely) you ever abandon analogue, you'll get most or all of your money back when you sell. A great turntable with a mediocre cartridge will still sound very, very good. And turntables don't wear out after 500 hours! If I didn't already own an air bearing, I'd be salivating at the prospect. |
If you have the money to spend, and spending it will not impact your ability to eat or pay rent, then yes, that is one hell of a deal. However, just because it is a third of the normal retail price doesn't mean it is going to be the turntable setup that gives you the Nirvana sound you are seeking. I'd like to second the comment about Merrill Williams equipment -- punches WAY ABOVE the price point and the R.E.A.L. 101.3 model could very well be your "end game" table.
This comment may be controversial to many on this Forum, but here in Winston-Salem, NC, where I live, there is a multi-Grammy Award winning Studio Mastering individual who researched and auditioned turntables for his studio, and he bought the Rega P10. Considering he has a TW Acustic Raven LS in his personal system ($20,000 turntable), I think that says quite a lot about the Rega P10. I know many here have made negative comments about Rega products -- which frankly I don't understand. But, everyone has their own opinion. Personally, I think the Rega P8 and P10 are fantastic buys.
Good luck on your search and vinyl exploration. I've collected vinyl since 1971, and I'll love to be in the position you are in right now! Cheers and Happy New Years!
Allen |
You can do a heck of a lot better in digital then nagar for less$$ and easill6 compete or beat SME setup the new Denafrips 12 anniversary Terminator +, the Excellent T&A 200 Dac or Holo springs May KTE , beat the nagar with Ease. , hook these up especially the T&A dac with Roon , and on the back end Have HQ player running with a sufficient high end fast server ,it then turns your digital withSuper powerful DSP that sounds state of the art that you can Taylor the sound exactly to your taste vinyl is not even close which btw can only produce 12 bits ,when top digital can reach true 20 bits plus the DSP power once you take the time to learn all the possibilities. Until you have tried this ,you cannot comment on it it’s platform is built into Roon , and T&A designed the200dac around HQ player with many filters and dithering options , it’s free for 2 weeks check it out .great digital is here ! |
I can somewhat relate to your predicament as your audio system is very similar to mine. I ran SME 15-AV, Hana Umami Red Cart, alternating between AD50 and E.A.T. E-GLO phono w/external power supply into Accuphase E-650 / Tannoy Canterbury’s. I loved every minute of my Vinyl playback until I decided to up the ante on my digital playback. Now my digital, mainly streaming has transcended the vinyl playback and account for 95% listening. My point is, if you’re committed in your pursuit, both Vinyl or Digital can be equally satisfying. My ‘Digital’ system is listed here for your reference. If your budget allows, dive into SME 30/12A but be prepared to spend another $10-$15K in Cart, phono until you feel, you are there. This is one of those itch that won’t simply go away until you dive deep into analog rabbit hole or you may choose to upgrade digital front end. What is your digital? Streaming or CD playback? |
I shall put my flame-proof pants on and utter the opinion that I feel a cartridge can make more difference than a TT. Sure, the world's best cartridge (I believe we already decided that question...) can't show how good it is with a poor TT, and vice versa. If you brought that SME home and put the Nagaoka on it, you would not hear what you heard at the dealership. Nor would you if you put that Clearaudio pickup on the Technics. If you get the SME, you pretty much have to get the best cartridge you can to go with it. Then neither one holds back the other. |
@noromance my cartridge is the Nagaoka JT1210 cartridge specially made for this TT, it came with the Technics 1210GAE ( only in europe, in the USA this TT didn't come with a cart). The dealer used a Clearaudio Davinci cart (which costs more than my entire analog rig). |
But I am mostly leaning towards your opinion of the situation. @rauliruegas. But I feel like if I can get even close to the sound of what I just heard at the dealers, I would be more than happy to jump into the analog rabbit hole. This is what's keeping me up at nights wondering if I should go for it or not. |
Thanks for the responses. Apologies forgot to mention my system: Devore O96. Accuphase E-650, Nagra Tube DAC, Acoustic revive cabling. @dogberry , it includes the V-12 tonearm. My phono is the AD-50 card in the Accuphase E-650 amp. @lewm, the phono in the dealer's was a Boulder 508, the speakers were different than my home (a Rockport Lyra, I think), so yes, it was not an apple to apples comparison, but it was the best I could do. @lalitk : For the sound I heard, I WOULD expand my vinyl collection. @pindac: the 100 LPs were bought over a period of 7-8 years. @rauliruegas I don't need to upgrade my digital rig, as of now IMHO (from reading forums) the Nagra Tube DAC is probably the 4th best DAC available in the market right now and 15k wont get me any higher in the ranking :) ---> okay this is a controversial statement but not the point of this post.
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Dear @essrand : " I am a vinyl newbie with maybe 100 LPs (or less) " If it's that way then maybe you are not achieving the most with your today analog rig and is improbable you can do it with the SME 30. Ask your self: if some one gives you a F1 race carr in 100K will you buy it? ( I hope you are not a race man pilot. )
Digital is more easy to " understand " than analog that always is a " nigthmare " but even in digital you choosed a tube DAC that certainly is not the best electronic technology to a DAC if you want top quality performance.
Anyway, is up to you but according your post makes no sense to buy it just because is a good offer. You can use that kind of $$$$$ to up-grade your Digital rig.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Has the Collection of 100 Albums been collected over the past two years. Have you bought Individual Albums or some Batched/Job Lot deals and are they New. I am going to assume, and happy to be corrected if inaccurate, about your purchases of Albums. Have the accumulated 100 Albums been purchased as Individual New Items over the past Two Years ? In my assessment in the present Marketplace, the cost for such Source Material will be close to $2500 for the Items without Shipping Costs. This is a Big Commitment by a Hobbyist, when there is other Recorded Source Material available most likely of the same recordings, that can be attained at lesser outlay, especially as you have a investment in Digital already. I have heard a Digital Set Up used in a Predominantly Vinyl Source System, that has a New Purchase Price of approx' £5K present itself as very attractive as a comparison to the Vinyl Set Up with a New Purchase Price of approx' £25K. Getting the absolute best from Vinyl using the Mainstream Brands as either Used or New Purchases can accumulate to substantially more in costs that creating as a attractive presentation using Digital as the Source Material. I am a little like your approach to the Vinyl LP as a Source in relation to the Digital Source. I have not too long been into Digital and have created a Digital Set Up in the main system only a few years ago. I had to purchase CD's as the only ones available were used in a Car or a few of my Son's Gangsta Rap type of genre. The Digital Set Up put together with very limited investigation and experience, even though guided by some who are experienced in Digital, has created a Source that integrated into my System very well, it is very attractive to have musical encounters with, and it has been used in place of the Vinyl Set Up on numerous occasions.
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