Sell Me Your Women, Your Children, Your Vintage Turntable...
Ok I’m trying to understand the appeal of buying something like an old Garrard 301 or an elderly Technics all trussed up in a shiny new plinth, versus something manufactured in the 21st century by people not wearing clogs.
Surely modern gear has to perform better, dollar for dollar? It isn’t like these restored Garrards are exactly cheap, i was looking at one for almost $11k yesterday on Reverb. The internals looked like something out of a Meccano set. I ought to be more in tune with the past, I’m almost 60 and wear bell bottoms, but the style of the older TTs just doesn’t do it for me. Now then, my Dr. Feickert Volare had a look that was hardly futuristic, but that’s about as retro as I’d prefer to go. All that said... I will buy one of these old buggers if it genuinely elevates performance. With $10k available for table and arm, on the new or used market, how would you splash the cash?
Fatdaddy: I owned a Garard when I was a high school teenager. It’s in the trash heap.
I graduated to a Dual 1229 in college.
In 1985 I bought a VPI HW MK II. I upgraded it to a MK IV in 2015 (I was going to trade the MK II in for a VPI Classic, but Harry Weisfeld talked me out of it: he said to simply upgrade and save myself $4,000). The thing is built like a brick…outhouse, as the saying goes. After 35 years, still running strong. I expect to have it another 35 years (assuming I make it there myself: I would be 102 then).
Benz LP-S @a16g is heavy but not at the top end..lighter than, for example, an SPU....depending on model and.headshell. I have experience with 4pt but but not Stogi. Curious to hear about your impressions.
Geoff Kait has not posted since July 8 of last year. I assume he finally found the portal to another dimension he had long been seeking. But it does seem interesting that Millercarbon's emergence and Geoff's disappearance took place at about the same time. Coincidence?
I must say that considering a vintage TT has been a fun distraction.
There are some gorgeous looking restored decks out there and the custom plinths in some cases are works of art.
The Technics SP-10R looks like a real beaut, here's a video of OMA who make a nice cast iron plinth - https://youtu.be/AazHsWk-8C0
I thought this was a great video too, from OMA. Some interesting turntable history and views on direct drive versus belt and idler: https://youtu.be/UEcQd1SZ8S4
First, can't do the test you recommend because I have ESL's, but I am confident that it would disconfirm your assertion. Second, environmental rumble is obviously a function of environment. The most usual source is traffic. I specified, "far from a freeway." Perhaps I should have added "railway" and "volcano", but thought that "freeway" would stand for all. Third, vibration does NOT travel through everything. Proof: since your Sota TT is a thing, and you say that vibration doesn't pass through it, vibration does not pass through everything. Obviously it is a matter of degree. Here a high mass TT is useful, while a suspension with its own resonating frequency may be a liability. Fourth, it would seem that ambient sound would only vibrate the tonearm if the frequency were right, the shape were right, the effective mass were low, and the volume were high. That's an argument for a high mass tonearm and cartridge, rather than a suspension with its own resonating frequency.
@terry9 , I'm afraid that is faulty thinking. True you do not have to worry about foot fall problems. But, you do have to worry about everything else. Don't believe me? Keep your turntable off and place the stylus down on a record, turn up the volume and go have a look at your woofers. They are fluttering. With a Sota they will be dead still. It is called environmental rumble. At worst you might feed back, again a Sota will not do this. Vibration travels through everything and a turntable is a very sensitive vibration measuring device. It does not care where the vibration comes from. Traveling through the air it will sound will even vibrate your tonearm creating an echo that people seem to like. It screws up the imaging. A proper dust cover will cut this at least 10 dB like hearing protectors for your cartridge. Mike Fremer solves the problem by putting his turntable in another room. Mark Dohmann is busy designing an isolation dust cover for the Helix along with vacuum clamping. Fremer also uses a MinusK platform under his table even though it is in another room. He is convinced it sounds better. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM
@adsell Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve looked briefly at Microseiki. That DP 8 you’re using looks nice. I’ve been looking at an Amazon Referenz and they pIay well with the Moerch arms from what I’ve read. How do you like yours? rooze
@chrisoshea Thanks for the suggestions, but my turntables are sold and I’ve no need for a $2000 phonostage. I wouldn’t think there’s any real age limit for trying a vintage turntable either. I mean, a modern table doesn’t help me get up the stairs or break open a new bag of Depends. As I edge ever closer to death I just might fancy trying something new. ... i mean old. There I go again.
If you have not check out Micro Seiki, the SX-8000 is an air bearing, I have the little brother RX-1500 with back filled platter that is nearly 20lbs, the plinth is also just as solid, the belt drive RY-1500 is separate from the main plinth, I find it very good. I run both a SME 3012 s1, , and Morch 12" DP8 tone arm and Zyx Ultimate MC cart.
I have been using the VPI HW with a Sumiko arm since 1985. I went from the HW MK II to the MK IV in 2010. The cartridge is a Koetsu, Black at first, a Rosewood Signature since 2008, and an Onyx since 2012.
So many paths, old or new, does it really matter? I've had a number of new belt drive tt's, some diy modded. Really like the diy modding aspect of audio. Anyway, I now have Technics SP10 MkII, completely refurbished, rebuilt, custom plinth, diy to the hilt. Love the slam, macro and micro dynamics of this setup, my belt drives never delivered to my satisfaction on these aspects. In the end, my current setup is likely one of a kind, voiced exactly to my preferences.
Do you need a suspended table? You do unless your floor is a concrete slab far from a freeway. If you don't need a suspended table, don't pay for it. Like my choices.
Air bearing is mine. Once you've heard air, there's no going back. IMO. Sometimes used air bearing TT come up.
An alternative with exceedingly quiet bearings and low motor noise is Nottingham Analogue, which I also own. NA doesn't have much presence here, so you may need to go to the factory. NA doesn't advertise nearly as much as some - but, do you want to pay for advertising or quality product? Occasionally a Dais comes up used.
For tonearm, consider the Trans-Fi Terminator air bearing tonearm, which IMO is the best buy in high end at about $1k, and competes with anything costing less than a new car.
For cartridge, wait until you've sorted out everything else. That's what has worked for me. YMMV
@lewm , I owned a Td 124II and in comparison to a modern turntable it was brutal. Even with an SME on it the AR XA easily out performed it. But, what does a 16 year old know. I bought it used at one of the local HiFi stores and was pleased as punch to start with. No apologies needed. I have never used a Lenco and undoubtedly never will. But you seem pleased as punch with it which is all that counts.
Before I chose an idler for my array of turntables, I auditioned Garrard 301, Thorens TD124, and Lenco L75 or GL78. (I think they’re the same.) Lenco won. Did not like the TD124 at all. Belt driving an idler seemed to combine the problems of both. Apologies to TD124lovers. Lenco was just a little less noisy than Garrard but with similar effortless drive. I’ve no doubt the Garrard can be made to outperform the samples I heard. My current Lenco is highly tweaked. Slate plinth, PTP top plate, dampened platter, graphite mat, enormous custom bearing and spindle, Phoenix Engineered drive, Dynavector tonearm. I love it. What might set the Lenco apart from the typical idler is the vertical orientation of the idler wheel and its tiny contact patch. These features might make for less side force on the bearing and much less potential for rumble. For more info go to Lenco Heaven. Or google PTP Lenco.
Improvements is the illness of audiophiles, there are vintage turntables like Luxman PD-444 with ZERO requirements for improvement! There is NOTHING like than made today for reasonable price, nothing. Read about it. The market value today is probably at least $3-4k. I’m a lucky user of a pair in my system. When you say "dollar for dollar" it’s NOT about modern turntables, they are all overpriced (even the lowest quality turntables are overpriced compared to much better vintage classics).
Garrard cult is very BAD example of vintage turntables in terms of price, they are definitely overpriced when refurbished by professionals.
Different strokes for different folks. If you don’t see the appeal in vintage turntables go for one of the modern designs, there are many good options to choose from. From your list, I’d probably go with the SME.
Thanks for the suggestion on the SME.
I guess there are various considerations when selecting a table/arm, certainly budget is the prevailing factor, then, when you get down to individual assessments, there's performance, aesthetics, reliability, ease of use/setup, availability of parts, etc.
Just focusing on performance and aesthetics (which in my case are the two most important aspects, in that order), I WOULD SACRIFICE AESTHETIC FOR A DOLLAR TO DOLLAR IMPROVEMENT IN PERFORMANCE. People seem reluctant to say that a well-restored vintage deck will generally sound better than a similarly priced modern unit. SOME OF YOU HAVE, but mostly the issue is skirted around. Some of you are alluding to "I built it with my own hands", "It looks wonderful" etc, but not so much "It just sounds obviously better".
So, I'm taking from this that there isn't really a consensus on SQ, and that it's generally down to personal preference, dictated by whatever heads up your list of personal priorities. OK, no real surprise.
So, no one has 'sold me their vintage turntable', per the original challenge. Maybe we can do better with your womenfolk and children... :)
Different strokes for different folks. If you don’t see the appeal in vintage turntables go for one of the modern designs, there are many good options to choose from. From your list, I’d probably go with the SME. @rooze I have a modern turntable and vintage as well, they are very different in everyday use, the way Garrard switches clang, there’s nothing modern like it. Idlers do sound a little different from belt drive and to some a more engaging sound…only you can make that decision for yourself. Rumble is not an issue and such an easy fix, I don’t get why it’s mentioned so often.
A line almost from the infamous Captain Sensible,Women and Captains first.Modern technology from a turntable specialist.If you buy quality it can hold its resale.https://www.rega.co.uk/products/planar-10.Whatever you buy its still the vinyl that sits on it thats most important.
Actually mijostyn you can modify the platter drive to drag the platter vs PUSH the platter.
That drive boggy on a Thoren or Russco/QRK/Sparta is swapped to an aluminum pully / bronze bushed and super soft silicone rope o-rings.
The platter is easy to dampen and drop balance AFTER the dampening is added.. Flex seal works wonders to quiet the whole thing down.. Chassis and all
Dimple roll the stuff it’s even quieter, but it's not the prettiest, when you dimple roll.. The plinth stabilizes too NO more growing summer to winter.
Billwojo, given that an idler drive usually has much more torque than a belt drive reason would have it that you would have to worry about slippage with an idler much more than you would a belt drive. The rubber on every idler wheel I have ever handled is seriously less compliant than the stiffest belt. The Idler wheel is a direct connection between the motor and the platter. As a matter of fact than darn thing is jammed in between the shaft and the platter and held there with a spring loaded mechanism. At least the TD 124 had a belt between the motor and the flywheel/driveshaft.
I have an untouched 401 220 50hz. Anybody want a Garrard 401. I’m sure I have 60 hz pully here too (somewhere) if you want to go that direction..
I heard the same thing on the 301 and 401. the 220 50 is better with a converter.. PS is just the latest.. Good reviews though. I’d give it a shot for the money no doubt.. There are US models though, different motor if I remember.. The 220/50hz model is suppose to be the cats meow!!
I’ll stick with Thoren. Any one use the NEW TD124 DD? You want all that speed control. I bet Thoren has it down to a gnat’s a$$. E50 motor though? LONG GONE
15K retail, progress? I’ll bet mine are better and 12-13k less. ;-)
You can air ride a spindle I don’t see how with direct drive, AND easy to do a air seal change...
I searched for years for a great rebuilt Garrard 301. Ever since my old friend, the late Winston Ma, told me that he used his 301 as the source for one of his $50+ gold CDs (FIM). I finally found a beautiful Woodsong 301 with an Ortophon RS 309D arm. Getting the 301 in my system brought about an extreme upgrade of every component to match the beauty and quality of the 301. Replaced the arm with a Triplanar and now have a Lyra Atlas SL. The drive and life-like physicality of the 301 appeals to me beyond any belt drive. There is a solidity to the unit and the sound. I think there are many good reasons why the 301 and other idler wheel TTs are so popular and sought after. Aside from the arm and cartridge, two upgrades were excellent: A 220v 50hz Long Dog Audio (LDA) power supply and an Ohio Class Silent Running Audio (SRA) platform. For anyone with a 301 or 401, I would highly recommend. The PS allows the motor to run as designed with 220v and the platform also transformed the performance.
(2) Looks do matter to me. Aesthetics are important to me. They are not the first criteria, but they certainly are one of the criteria. (3) Some modern turntables look like they should be in a NASA physic lab. How they heck does one dust some of those machines. Point being here I need one that I can effectively and easily operate at all times of the day (nudge nudge) and be able to keep clean and functioning well without too much fuss. (4) What does rumble sound like? I'm not sure I ever heard it. I'm sure I couldn't have discerned it on my old Pioneer systems. Now my system should have very little of it, but I have never done an A-B for rumble. That would be interesting. Not even sure how I would go about it.
(5) Hats off to you DIY'ers. If I was skilled enough to create the beautiful plinths that you all do, I certainly would be displaying it front and center in my system. Always wanted to be better at wood working than I am, but I still have all my digits!
Couldn't agree more with the above. Particularly #5. I'm a frustrated woodworker/artist/inventor who can't assemble a cupboard from IKEA without bursting a blood vessel. Kudos to those with the skills and patience to pull off some of these restos and plinth builds.
Did you sell your Illustrious? Resolution? If not then moving OL arm to a SOTA would be one way to go.
Yes, I just sold it on the weekend. I'm thinking of staying with OL products and moving up a couple of notches, but I'm waiting on some ideas/suggestions from OL's Mark Baker. The Illustrious arm is a fantastic device. I'd love to try the Enterprise.
Buddy is a BIG SME fan, that and Colt. LOL He says they are close in build quality.. They are.. Serious QC there. Soundsmith and SME, peas and carrots...
NEVER heard a Garrard rule the roost.. The closest is a 401.. there is a BIG difference between the two 301 vs 401.
Billwojo, you forgot the motor which is directly connected to the plater in an idler drive. It does not have a bearing? Actually, it has two, one on either side of the stator. I’m sure it is a cool device.
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Billwojo is a machinist, I’m a retired HD master mechanic.
WE can make anything quiet. If you’re nice WE might teach you a thing or two..
If not WE’LL leave the 100 years between us to someone that DOES.
The only TT I can’t get quiet are the old mechanical automatics. Like a Zero 100. (sure nice looking for being such a pile SQ wise) A TD224 I can get to work perfect and be quiet.
No matter what anyone builds, the platter can’t ride on a ball. Once you accept that, you will understand what QUIET is..
Air ride or mag lift is QUIET.. Everything else has rumble
The 33.3 BS being spouted is hogwash.. I know for a fact no one could tell the difference if I set it at 32.3 or 33.3 rpms, much less being or staying accurate. You might notice wow, BUT I haven’t heard that in 35 years, and even then more so on RtR tapes needing to be re-tensioned.
Startup on a rim drive is 1/4 to 1/2 turn to full speed.. The real way to Que is to TURN OFF the motor on a Russco and flip the switch to start the qued record.. Mine are full speed in 1/4-1/2 turn.. Summer/Winter (temperature change) They have GEAR SHIFTERS for Gods sakes, how cool is that... Remind me of Cylons, just need a JBL diffuser for a helmet..
If you had seen the just restored Garrard 301 I saw last Saturday at Woolsons Audio you might understand. It looks nothing like today's stealthy models. I looks more like that 50's Buick Roadmaster your folks may have had. Specs are said to be good but I am no TT expert.
Without going into the gory details of which drive system is best or whether vintage turntables or cartridges are worse than, equal to, or better than modern ones, my opinion is that the biggest gains in vinyl reproduction over the last 45 years (roughly my tenure as a vinylphile) are with respect to the electronics. Modern well designed phono stages are just eons better than anything that was available back in the 70s or early 80s. With respect to solid state options, this is not even worth debating. Modern SS designs are in another universe from vintage, if only because modern transistors and ICs are faster and lower in distortion. With respect to tube phono stages, I would say the same is true. One, but only one, reason for this is the availability of much better parts with which to build these stages. Another reason is the evolution of design philosophy. I think the same is true of cables and power cords. These devices enable us to appreciate the virtues of vintage turntables and cartridges to an extent we did not dream of, back when they were current products. The same reasoning applies to linestages and amplifiers, of course. The very best speakers of yore still hold their own against modern efforts, provided the drivers are in good shape, in my opinion. But I do think there are more great speakers available these days than was the case 45 years ago. This is all without considering cost, which is slave to inflation over time.
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