Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.
Do a bit of research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.
A rewind:
It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.
It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.
*heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
OR, two:
The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.
Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications. THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!
Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.
At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.
But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.
They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.
Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).
Solid State amps?
OOPS (back to tubes)!
Your Smart Phone?
FA'GET ABOUT IT!
Your car's GPS?
NOPE!
Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.
Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?
*Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.
Either way: the result, when the Cult begins its rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.
But, I digress:
Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?
Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases
Remember this?.
One anecdote that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, into WHY and HOW.
It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.
At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.
Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda).
The cables don't make a difference crowd should not be allowed to post their misleading crap on Audiogon,it's obvious they don't know what they are talking about.People new to the hobby will read this,and will miss out on the joys of having great cables in their system.
Many of us, I think, have a limit on what we will pay for cables - either out of necessity or choice. I know to my ears that cables sound different. Finding outsized performance within a reasonable price is my goal. I have about 6000 total in speaker, IC, LAN and power cables in my reference system. Some listeners have more than that in a single power cable. I do though wonder how many listeners who truly have listened to more expensive cables than their current low expenditure truly opt to spend less? If u have never spent more than a couple of hundred bucks on cables it's kinda hard to know whether more expensive cables sound better or not.
The least expensive way: contact the guys at The Cable Company and take advantage of their lending library.
For a pittance, you can try a few of their offerings and the rental fees are applied to any purchase made.
Only if one resides in the USA.
Having emphasized that point, being in Canada I am a satisfied customer of usedcables and they offer a 30 day full value exchange if one is unsatisfied with their purchase.
Fluid Dynamics when applied to multi-land highways and interstates with average rush-hour traffic gives one plenty to consider when in 'slow 'n go' states, @rodman99999 ;)
Bad question-- assumes absolutes when there are none.
I'll bet, you will never be able to rank a set of different cables by price even if one cable costs $200 (a reasonable price for a high quality build and materials cable) and a $10,000 cable. Confirmation bias and the placebo effect are the bane of this hobby. Hearing is funny. People "think" they hear a this thang or that ALL THE TIME and they are often wrong. Trouble is, they're also never in doubt. Either you can reliably discern qualitative differences without bias (know what they are) or not. I'm betting no one can. I have a high end system, believe in quality, and basic acoustic principals -- I choose not to believe in specious claims made by companies that are often raking in obscene margins based upon same. But, hey, it's a free country.
I read your link. The court sure likes to poke and prod but your side got them across the finish line in the end. If you are DC, then your list of other cases is interesting too. It seems your day job is not so different from what too often goes on here.
Feynman's views are where we should start but in life, decisions have to be made (or else made for us). In my professions in law, real estate and finance as well as medical and food decisions for family, I have to have conclusions I can act on.
To be clear:
Feynman's, "views" won him a Nobel in Physics. This: for his work in Quantum Electrodynamics (1965), which contributed greatly, to our understanding of how electricity functions on the subatomic level.
Whether accepted by some, or not: the principles are used in the designs of the better cabling, many of us enjoy today.
Some of his earlier (1940s), "conclusions" WERE acted upon, and largely responsible for ending WW II, regardless of one's agreement with the method.
Beyond those: he helped develop the punched card system, used for data entry, in the early days of computation.
I'll stick with his philosophies and record (far as successes/achievements), "in life", to emulate (thank you).
@cleedsIt was also me being cheeky I was not really serious. I am middle of the road on cables, they should not impede a systems performance, anyway some took it way too serious I see. Now it’s about the Constitution. Yikes I really banged out a doozy.
Trust me on this one: I know far more about the 1st Amendment, Public Forum Doctrine etc than you likely ever will ... Let’s see how long it takes for Tammy to pull this down.
You seem confused. This forum is about audio and music. This thread is about cables.
Feynman's views are where we should start but in life, decisions have to be made (or else made for us). In my professions in law, real estate and finance as well as medical and food decisions for family, I have to have conclusions I can act on. So, based on the information I have at the time, I make a decision. I've forgotten more than I know.
As to an all in one system, it serves the purposes for many or most music lovers. For me, I chose to collect the music I want to hear often first, then the equipment to best enjoy their reproduction. I am not a perfectionist, just an average guy who is a polymath intellectual. It's my orientation, not my intellect that drives me to know more.
Wi Fi has a limited bandwidth. For instance with WiFi 6 I get about 365Mbs. With a gigabit wired connection you normally get close to 1Gbs on most networks today. I have heard you can get high definition audio with 100kbs, but I reserve my opinion it does not sound good enough. If you can get 300kbs from a streamer WiFi, it sounds pretty good. I bet on a higher end system than mine, the detailing higher end systems can achieve, that those folks could tell difference in not only bandwidth, but preamp, DAC quality, and power amp quality. The internal components and design make a difference. I think some people in this forum have experience with both wireless vs wired. My question would be if you have a Bluetooth, or wireless setup.....How good is the DAC? How good is the reciever that captures the bits and bytes flying through the air? Of course this is compared to a high end system that is wired. I think the electronics powering the speakers is a Huge concern. It boils down to your ears. I know I can listen to my wired speakers for 4hrs of critcal listening and want more if time permitted.
Fighting three free speech cases against the government in court, perhaps?
Now, I didn’t waste my time going through all of your links. Anything that starts out by citing the WSJ (which I have nevertheless subscribed to for 45 years) opinion page on speech is not very credible.
Trust me on this one: I know far more about the 1st Amendment, Public Forum Doctrine etc than you likely ever will.
I got Nino Scalia to agree with me. Twice. Once on the Supremes, the other time at the DC circuit with Bork and Start (I hit the trifecta).
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).
He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"
For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.
ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”
and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”
Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.
My response was just my list of favorite quotes, from prople that could have known better, had they not been blinded by their own ideas/opinions/biases.
If audiogon was the government, they would be banned from adopting your position. It’s called viewpoint based discrimination. It leads to dictatorship.
Where have you been for the past 3+ years?
The, "government" has been trying (repeatedly) to censor/squelch any speach, contrary to their agenda/goals/benefit.
I stopped believing in the Catholic Church at age 9. I stopped believing in God at age 13. Do you really think that I’m going to genuflect in The Church of Audio ... I wonder if this offends Tammy and whomever in this crowd jerks her chain: let’s see how long this post lasts ... they are free to ban posts and do as they please. They do in fact do so. Tammy has already removed many of mine ...
If audiogon was the government, they would be banned from adopting your position. It’s called viewpoint based discrimination. It leads to dictatorship.
They are not the government, so they are free to ban posts and do as they please. They do in fact do so. Tammy has already removed many of mine, of which I will have something to say in the future.
in the meantime, conversely, what’s to prevent someone from adopting the position of saying that people who promote $5M cables should be banned, lest they continue to brainwash people into spending unnecessary amounts of money?
Censorship is never wise. (Allegedly) False speech is not fought by removing it. It’s fought with more speech. Then people decide.
The cables don't make a difference crowd should not be allowed to post their misleading crap on Audiogon,it's obvious they don't know what they are talking about.People new to the hobby will read this,and will miss out on the joys of having great cables in their system.
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872)
"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)
"The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)
"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)
"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)
"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project)
When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."
Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft.
Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe).
I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY." He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday)
PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it?
Many of us, "older people" still get to listen to live music, human voices, and instruments on a regular (if not daily) basis. iow: We still know what life/live sounds like, whether we're paying attention, or not.
While one of the many variables affecting our listening abilities may be hearing loss; everyone isn't subject to it in the same manner, or: to the same degree.
I can't speak for everyone, but: I want my system to reproduce the sounds of what I hear live, including hall/studio ambience, or whatever the Recording Engineer (or I, on my recordings) intended, without the editing/colorations/interferences, that so many easily replaceable components offer.
”….The cable unbelievers either don’t have audiophile ears or an unresolving system where wires are just wires….”
So says His Audio Excellency, sacred holder of the highest knowledge in all things audio.
Maybe His Audio Excellency speaks in jest?
Nevertheless. Let me say two things in refutation.
- as for the revealing system, see theaudioatticvinylsundays.com , go to the bottom of the about page. Note that I don’t even bother to mention cables in there, but if you must know, I use monster for speaker cable and something or other (sorry I’m not in front of my system right now) to connect the components that costs around $5-$7 a foot.
- as for the ears, why is it that during the listening sessions that I hold, that it is I that is always pointing out characteristics in the music that my audience don’t hear? It’s not because I have better - “audio quality” is how I think you put it - ears, it’s because people hear differently, their brains are wired differently, they are drawn to different sounds, they listen differently. Same thing with random ambient sound: I can be somewhere in a room or outdoors, I’ll hear something (in spite of my cervical stenosis-induced tinnitus) and say something about it, the other people with me are like wtf are you talking about and I say sssh listen, and then they hear it?
I will say that most people - thanks to social media - have forgotten how to sit still and listen. But that’s a related topic.
But they all are stunned - stunned - by the quality of sound from my system. Comments run from “never ever heard music sound like that before”, “better than live music”, “when I die, I’m going to ask … no, I’m going to tell God to send me back here.”
With cables that don’t cost U.S. $5M per foot.
I stopped believing in the Catholic Church at age 9.
I stopped believing in God at age 13.
Do you really think that I’m going to genuflect in The Church of Audio before The Altar of Cable Theology at age 70?
I’m not going there.
PS: I wonder if this offends Tammy and whomever in this crowd jerks her chain: let’s see how long this post lasts.
PPS:
Poppy Crum on Led Zeppelin and why people hear either what they want to hear or what they are directed to or told to hear, in Audio Myths, from 5:12 to 9:28:
@robert_1also consider the fact that these elder statesmen of audio and audio cables have more disposable income, therefore have much nicer hi-fi systems than those 30 and under. More revealing systems not some of the internet/big box lo-fi. You know the stuff the ASR crowd buys.
The funny part of all these cable magical sounds is that the big majority of people into this are people that on average are older than 30 years of age, meaning humans as early in their thirties start losing their hearing mostly in the upper registers, getting worse as the years go by; nonetheless, we have here many people in their 40s-80s hearing better sound coming out of cables.
Of course a cable can and most definitely make a difference in the transmission of the signal, but for all these older people who hear all these magical new sounds (I wonder how since hearing loss is a fact at those ages) I would say that a lot of it has to do with a placebo effect.
I find it interesting that we can get so emotional on the topic of cables...it's the science types poking at those who are invested in cables...and the investors getting defensive.
I side with the investors because 9 out of 10 times they are minding their own business and discussing their cables and get randomly attacked.
What would women think about us fighting over cables? ;-)
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY (their credo: "Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, or- piques the curiosity, FOR YOURSELF.
Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new fuses, cables or various, "tweaks" in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!
Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, lending support for the audible differences between them.
I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow. It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves. It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s:
These next two presuppose a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory. Click, "more" in the first link's third answer, to get its entirety. Note how it mentions the OLD, "... commonly held misconception that the flow of electricity through a wire resembles a tube filled with ping pong balls...", to which the Denyin'tologists fervently adhere:
It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials, of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity). The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material to become polarized. One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form", or, "break/burn-in".*
Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.
That must lend credence to various cable geometries.
That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).
Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss.
As simple a device as a fuse is: it still carries a sinusoidal signal/voltage, ALWAYS from source to load.
NOT back and forth!
Also (as mentioned above): any fuse acts as an RLC circuit, the 'C' of which will be determined by properties of its wave guide's/conductor's surroundings (ie: glass, air, bee's wax, ceramic, end cap materials, etc).
Any commonly drawn wire will exhibit a chevron pattern in its crystal lattice, so: why not "directionality" and why OHNO Continuous Cast, single crystal wire sounds better, to so many?
Stated above are scientifically tested, measured and proven facts.
There is no "contest", or "dispute" involved.
Anyone that feels compelled to harp on not hearing any differences, is obviously too obtuse to understand the term "variables" (as frequently mentioned) and worthy of disregard.
My only goal in these threads has ever been to encourage those with a mind to experiment with their systems, based on the latest (20th/21st Century's) findings of ACTUAL Physics/science and ignore the Cargo Cult's incessant runway building (objections, convolutions, deflections and obfuscations).
I guess I'm just a jerk then and don't know anything about cables,power cords.If I did have thousands of dollars to spend on cables.I them would need a new and upscale wall outlet and new in wall electrical wiring and completely isolated power box.I mean I just plug my Amp into the wall outlet and use cables supplied by the manufacturer .Maybe I'll hit lotto and then take a great vacation and I won't even have to listen to why system. Happy Labor Day.
You need cables heavy enough to carry the current and so do not present a resistive or inductive load. Thats it. Fancy, expensive cables IMO is BS. I assume you are being funny about using wi-fi instead of cables.
Why haven’t the top brands simply built and marketed a "King-Size" all-in-one audio configuration? Consider an over-size receiver, approximately 4’x5’, that has top quality point-to-point internal silver soldering/wiring, strategically placed EMI/RMF blocking, internal grounding as well as wireless speakers, etc?
It seems to me herein lies the solution to settling this cabling versus high-quality cabling versus no cabling debate; in addition to proving to all the whiny TD’s, once and for all, that...
Because then you’d have to buy a $15,000 de-humidifier to make sure the air is at exactly 40% humidification to ensure full range of the signal , a $3000 de-ionizer to make sure only the purest Bluetooth signal passes to the receiver, and limited spectrum light bulbs at $250 a piece to prevent noise in the signal. I just so happen to have a warehouse (basement) fully stocked with all of these exclusive items. 🤑
Man, he really struck a nerve and some of you gave him so much power from a single question. He was expecting the heat but man, so early in the post.
No one person is built the same and everyone has their own opinion. For me, I only care about how my systems sound in my environment. At the end of the day, I do keep an open mindset but understand it is my choice on what I do for myself and my systems, no one else’s.
I researched within my own living environment and came to the conclusion that the type of cables do in fact make a difference in my system. Some systems are more revealing than others and believe it or not the price point of your system may be more revealing than others. This is why even manufacturers of audio equipment select specific wires or lack specific wires in their design. Sometimes if not most of the time it has to do with the cost to produce the item whether by hand or by machines. The choice is yours and yours alone.
I have friends I communicate daily about audio gear and guess what, we are all have different philosophies. That’s OK in my opinion. One even doesn’t believe in cables and won’t do an A/B testing in his on environment because Audioholics told him so or convinced him. He sware by them, I do not and that’s okay. One day I recently invited them over for a listing session since they haven’t heard my recent setup and came out of it with a wow effect of what they just heard. Needless to say, they were very impressed. One of my friends even pointed to my cable setup. (I believe he was poking fun at our other friend). We all laughed it off and enjoyed the moment. At the end of the day, I still didn’t knock my friend for believing that cables don’t make sense. Again, it is his choice and I respect him for it.
At the end of the day do what you feel makes your system sound good to you but if I can offer common sense here, do the testing yourself, and if you want to share, maybe reveal what you have and give an honest opinion one way or the other. This is supposed to be a forum to help others, not bash one another because of strong opinions.
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