Hi all. Looking for some Reva or just to be told that it likely doesn’t get much better. Current preamp audio research ls-7 which was an audiogon purchase 12 years ago 550.00. Upgrade consideration ARC ref 3, ARC GSPre, Elliott Studio Arts 66-001, aesthetix Janus, audible illusion 3b, etc. rest of the system is parasound Jc 5 amp. eat c-sharp TT, McIntosh MP100 phono pre bluenode streamer and vandersteen treo carbon ct. audio quest cables throughout. I am wondering if the preamp upgrade for thousands more will provide any real marginal gain. Looking forward to the chat
I’m immediately drawn to the Audible Illusions 3B in your list. I auditioned it MANY moons ago and absolutely enjoyed the experience. For reference, it fronted a CAL Delta (anyone remember them?) feeding a modest Exposure stereo amp which drove a pair of Dunlavy IVs, so a very close match to your system context.
Being so long ago, I can’t remember specifics, but do remember liquid presentation, even when driving the Dunlavys. I couldn’t pony up the Benjamins back then for it, so I had to "settle" for a McCormark TLC-1, which I stayed with until I had to integrate my stereo system with the HT. I always do remember fondly hearing the 3B, I had to give up my seat after a time limit - there was a short line outside the auditioning room. I did obtain a set of Dunlavy SC-III.As, though.
I experimented with a number of preamps over the last fifty years and have kept coming back to Audio Research. While there was a bit of variation with the introduction of the ARC Ref 1 & 2 preamp. Once that was ironed out, in general the sound improves with each generation of preamp. The current models are spectacular… LS28SE… which a friend of mine purchased about a year ago and the Reference 6SE which I own.
ARC continues to carefully walk the line of musical first… not loosing the natural midrange bloom, then adding detail and dynamics while lowering the noise floor. Worth the marginal improvement, to me, absolutely. There are a few folks that liked the warmth… with somewhat lower detail of some older ones. But for most tastes… current are just plain better.
Thanks for the responses. I would say the audible illusions was recommended to me many years ago when I bought the Ls-7. At that time I was looking at a 3a. The 3b is still a contender. I do actually appreciate the warmth and bloom of the ls7. I think the true exercise here is what is the degree of audible “improvement” from the Ls7 that cost 550.00 to any of the mentioned tube preamps that will cost 3K to 6K on the used market which equates to 6-12 times more cash spent for what percentage of true performance increase. I’ve a it plain better at that cost?
@jelliott78 the increase in performance when upgrading a preamp depends on how good the upstream and downstream components are. LS7 was an OK preamp when it was new but there’s a reason why ARC made several more models up from it. The Ref 3 will crush it if there’s synergy with the rest of the system.
Matching preamp to the rest of the system is never a plug and play type deal unless you’re buying same brand/line components.
I would say my upstream and downstream components are quite good.I totally understand that there isn’t any plug and play options in reward tomorrow choices. However the question is there going to be reasonable gains for spending 6-12 times what I paid for the LS7. Define crush? Is that a 5 percent 10 percent gain crease for the money?
I’ve owned the 3a several times and always enjoyed my time with it. Not sure about the 3b, but if it has the same amount of gain, then you need to consider that. These are extremely high gain preamps with wide steps on the attenuators. Not a good match for amps that already have a lot of gain.
I’m a fan of ARC as well. Pairs well with your Treo for sure. I own a pair. You might ask the same question on the Vandy owners forum. Are you running some isolation under your LS ? i strongly advise HRS Nimbus at a minimum….
It wasn't on your list, but you might consider a Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamp. I upgraded from two different conrad-johnson preamps. I was worried that I would miss some of the warmth that the older c-j preamps are known for, but I didn't. I'm using mine with a Coda solid state amp.
Tubes make a big difference in the LTA preamp. Telefunken and Siemens work best for me.
You're already in some pretty thin air, and it looks like your streamer is the next thing I'd consider upgrading. Judging from the sales on the Node I'm seeing all over, there's a new model in the Wings. So you might want to wait and see, or jump.to an Arender or something such. Much more likely to get a bump in SQ there, rather than by swapping preamps.
You're already in some pretty thin air, and it looks like your streamer is the next thing I'd consider upgrading. Judging from the sales on the Node I'm seeing all over, there's a new model in the Wings. So you might want to wait and see, or jump.to an Arender or something such. Much more likely to get a bump in SQ there, rather than by swapping preamps.
What you should be concentrating on is finding a preamp that will work best within the system you have. It has to play well with your existing amp, speakers and sources. In other words, saying that one preamp is better than another has no real bearing on whether or not it will work for you in your system. Some owners get lucky and mix brands successfully while others are constantly changing while looking for the perfect match. And still others adhere to staying within a single house brand. Think about this before you proceed and best of luck on your journey.
Regarding the Modulus 3B preamp. I owned in this order, original Modulus 3, Modulus 3A, and Modulus 3B. The 3B was the best of the 3, sounded superb most of the time. I owned the 3B from 2012 through 2019 before going to a Rogue RP5 preamp which was a sideway move. I liked the Modulus 3B better but wanted remote. I finally settled on a McIntosh C2500 tube preamp. It’s my final preamp. If you do go for the 3B, make sure it isn’t noisy as mine would develop hum and I would have to reseat the tubes. Also understand that Audible Illusions is basically a 1 man show and if you need repairs, I wish you the best of luck. I ordered a set of 4 tubes from Audible Illusions and waited almost 2 years for them to ship. Everytime I called, I was told they would relay the info to Art Ferris, the owner of Audible Illusions. I never did get the tubes.
Lots of good advise to think about. I’d say the LS7 sounds pretty good and all the items in the system work well together. I listed severall preamp companies and models I was considering but the real consideration is the level of improvement for the amount of money spent vs what I paid for the LS7 many years ago. Good to hear everyone’s take ownership and what they have tried and liked and even some of the pitfalls of other equipment. A lot to consider.
Trying to assign a word to whether or how much better it may sound is a mistake. Will it sound better? Most likely yes. Will it sound much better in your system with your other present components and warrant a change? Again, probably yes. Will it crush your current preamp? Only you can decide. I’ve listened to the current ARC Reference preamps several times and they’re very good. I’m not sure how you would be anything but pleased.
To be honest unless you are Elon Musk price matters.
The exponential increase in price of let's say a Ref 6SE over your LS7 will not give an exponential increase of quality reproduction.
Most of us in this hobby spend a LOT more money than one could justify chasing nuance and the thrill of a high quality new component.
Therefore; a cost benefit analysis isn't the best way to examine value of Hifi gear. It's more an emotional purchase. In my opinion long after the price is forgotten the thrill of beautifully reproduced music and ultra high quality gear remains.
Performance as concerns sound is foremost, but given the already curated list, I would assume any of the mentioned ones would be enjoyable. I would include in my consideration whether the maker was a large enough company to credibly provide support for as long as you would expect to own the component, meaning parts, a network of supported repair shops and if new, a reasonably long warranty. Unless you have money to burn, low-volume products from atelier-type producers are out. If you are buying used and at substantial discount from new purchase prices, you will have to weigh the risk of replacing the unit sooner than you would like for lack of parts and support. I have always thought AR made components that were well-engineered and well-constructed and durable, yet still, they are a company that has had its ups and downs in recent years (I still would buy their gear, FWIW.) Other outfits, it would depend.
@chenryI always look for point to point wired tube equipment that all the parts are easily sourced and available, there are many small manufacturers that do this. Some of the bigger manufacturers may use circuit boards that later are discontinued, so buying from a bigger well know manufacturer doesn't always mean you can easily get the item repaired.
I would highly recommend you look at these tube preamps. All are hand made, point to point wired, using the highest quality components:
Aric Audio Motherlode II (RCA only $5,475), Aric Audio Motherlode XL (RCA & XLR $6,475), Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven preamp $5,895, or Supratek Cabernet $4,000 or Supratek Grange $6,000
For transparency, I do own the Aric Audio Motherlode XL......best preamp that I have ever heard. The Raven was really really close, and could live with it for life too
I am wondering if the preamp upgrade for thousands more will provide any real marginal gain.
@jelliott78The short and long answers both involve 'yes'.
Since your amps support balanced line, I would consider a balanced line preamp so as to get the most out of the cables and the amps. The balanced line system has standards in place that have been there for decades. Not all balanced preamps in high end audio support the standards. The standards are useful as they prevent coloration from interconnect cables and also prevent ground loops.
The main standard is known as AES48. You can ask the manufacturer of a potential preamp if its supported. The second aspect is the ability to drive a lower impedance such as 600 Ohms. This is harder for a tube preamp but they do exist. If you get a preamp that supports both aspects of balanced line operation you won't have to worry about what cable sounds the best ever again; to my thinking that's a real benefit!
Maybe I need to just take the is-7 to a shop and AB compare. That is likely the most definitive test. But love all the input and passion this is an awesome hobby and but we all know the dollars that go into it. I’ve always done my best to find the the line of diminishing returns.
Great advice and I completely agree with you. I have the Supratek Grange Signature preamp with Phono stage that includes the LCR circuit and Lundahl inductors and it is by far the best full function preamp I’ve owned. I’ve had all tubed preamps with SS amps over the years from ARC, BAT, and Coincident but the Grange Signature is superior. I’d have to spend at least 2X to better it. The phono section is worth the price alone!
And my opinion is not to dismiss great preamps from AR, CJ, BAT, Atmosphere, Backert Labs, or the like. There is just something magical about obsessive creators, who use the highest quality components, in a hand made format.
Vishay and Takman resistors, Jensen and Edcor transformers, ALPs pots, Khozmo remote controller, Jupiter and Clarity caps, Neutrik connectors. Aric's gear is not cheap, but his component choices are exceptional.....resulting in exceptional sound.
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